[Manga] Chapter 491 Discussion

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Shikamaru is smart, but he acted stupidly in this instance and would have gotten all his team killed if they hadn't been found out by Tsunade and Kakashi first and without Naruto's providential appearance after that.

Ok, that is true. Taking team 10 into battle in the first place was awful idea. But it was Shika's leadership that kept them alive until help came. He kept Ino and Chouji from making mistakes which would've immediately gotten them killed and Kakashi had full confidence in his judgement. The idea itself was reckless, how Shika carried it out was anything but.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Naruto's world is the opposite of ours...
While Naruto is the student...he'll soon learn the words from Killerbee the master.

Spoiler for comparison:

Naruto - Eminem/Slim


Killerbee - 50 Cent



Mark my words... Naruto's definetly gonna learn to rap! Nan-da-Da-ta-ta-tata-tebayoo!! (or whatever...)

Not as different as you might think. For you see, the real Slim Shady was in fact the protege of

Spoiler:

Killer Bee, straight outta Compton Kumokagure y'all.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

After all, such fights were the staple of Part 1. They were fun to watch and were generally satisfying as actual thought seemed to go into the teamwork. But that has been thrown away these days in favour of the 1-on-1 fights.

Early- to- mid Pt II is where teamwork really came into play to take down the Akatsuki members. Pt 1, the majority of the teamwork was during the Wave Country arc and to a lesser degree during the exams, by the chuunin preliminaries Naruto became nearly all 1-on-1 battles (with exceptions against Akatsuki and Oro).

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Not as different as you might think. For you see, the real Slim Shady was in fact the protege of

Spoiler:

Yeah, i know... which is why i said.. opposite

Dre -> Eminem (Naruto) -> 50 Cent (Killerbee)
Killerbee (master) -> Naruto (student)

Anyways... we'll soon see whether the Real Naruto will stand up!

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Believe it or not, I agree that he, as well as every other character out there, should work as a true team (in other words, do the fighting together) more often. After all, such fights were the staple of Part 1. They were fun to watch and were generally satisfying as actual thought seemed to go into the teamwork. But that has been thrown away these days in favour of the 1-on-1 fights.

They were? The only instance of teamwork in part 1 was Naruto and Sasuke freeing Kakashi from Zabuza, it's the only time it happened. You can count all the team fight in the entire series with one hand, and they usually lasted no more than a couple of pages at best except for the combat where Chiyo and Sakura teamed up against Sasori.
Kishimoto simply doesn't know how to make a fight with more than 2 characters.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

What if Itachi tagged his eyeballs with a destructive seal that destroys the eyeballs once Sasuke faces Naruto? It could at least protect Konoha from Sasuke and the Uchiha hatred plus protect Sasuke from doing bad things.

Instead, Itachi will have sealed the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword in his eyeballs (or toothballs), giving Sasuke an even greater power-up...

[holypanl]

Hi, question: I always wondered, is it only Itachi who had the Sword of Totsuka?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by holypanl

Hi, question: I always wondered, is it only Itachi who had the Sword of Totsuka?

From Orochimaru and Zetsu's words, it is a known Legendary Item that has been used in the past. And, since the MS has only been around some 75 or so years (whenever Madara and Izuna first developed the eyes), the awe that Zetsu and Orochimaru place on the items seems to imply that they have been around far longer than the MS, so they could not be MS items.

A popular theory floating around, is that they are the Rikudou-Sennin's tools from when he fought the Jyuubi, but, obviously, there is no real evidence of that (save for the possibility that the Rikudou's prominent Magatama are, in fact, the legendary Yasakani no Magatama, which would fit quite nicely alongside the Yata Mirror)...

[Shiryuu]

I want to see/hear Naruto rap talk in the anime.

[DeDe]

Sasuke vs Naruto is so far off I can't even think about it. I expect them to have a few fights before then.

Reading some posts in broken Japanese on 2ch, I get the feeling that a lot of the fanbase believes Kishi will announce a timeskip after this war and Naruto's fight with Sasuke. He won't end Naruto like he originally planned. The feeling is Kishimoto isn't a very good mangaka and has come to grips that he'll never do anything but Naruto. He is too young to just retire. So he'll take a year off, release a short story about Minato, and then pick up Naruto when they are young adults.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

off topic but, I find it funny that no one seems to give a rats ass about the acting Hokage being assasinated....

I guess everyone hated Danzou and didn't really recognize him as Hokage. I would actually liked to have seen that meeting go longer. Kishi is really speeding things up.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I guess everyone hated Danzou and didn't really recognize him as Hokage. I would actually liked to have seen that meeting go longer. Kishi is really speeding things up.

I forget, but was a meeting even announced in a previous chapter? It seemed like Tsunade literaly woke up, rolled out of bed (probably dragged a comb through her hair) and then stumbled into an international meeting (that was being held outside her house (I know it is being held in Kumo) in a gazebo or something).

edit: it seems the Raikage summoned the other Kages in the previouschapter, I simply never picked up on that fact....

[JustRob]

Danzou wasn't generally accepted as Hokage yet, the Jounins still didn't get a vote. He also completely lost the trust of the other Kages, and he was killed by Sasuke. Obviously nobody's gonna give a damn about a two timing corrupt bastard who tried to manipulate his allies. I wonder if those two elders are crapping their pants yet, by now they should have realized Sasuke is out for their lives.

About Suigetsu and Juugo, I don't think we're going to see them again. Sasuke has clearly shown that he doesn't care about his teammates (Karin), so they have kind of lost their purpose in the manga. Especially Juugo who needed Sasuke. I could still see some opportunities for Suigetsu, but he seems so weak that I'm not really interested.

And yeah, the meeting was announced in the very last panel of chapter 490. Raikage said it would take place in three days.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by JustRob

About Suigetsu and Juugo, I don't think we're going to see them again. Sasuke has clearly shown that he doesn't care about his teammates (Karin), so they have kind of lost their purpose in the manga. Especially Juugo who needed Sasuke. I could still see some opportunities for Suigetsu, but he seems so weak that I'm not really interested.

We should really be told what happened to them atleast. If I'm not mistaken, in the recent interview the Editor actually had to force him to do that.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But it was Shika's leadership that kept them alive until help came.

The problem was that there was nobody to lead in the battle, because both Ino and Choji were completely useless. I know that Kishimoto wanted to focus on the main characters, but i think that the fight was not written well. Before Naruto arrived Kishimoto could have had used one chapter to show Ino and Choji fighting according to some plan devised by Shikamaru. For example Shikamaru could have made a plan where Ino switches mind Hidan or Kakuzu and uses something similar to what Danzou's subordinate used, she is supposed to be a chuunin and have new jutsu, but she didn't do anything at all. Choji could have used one or two of his special soldier pills. Of course the outcome of the fight would be the same, them being rescued by Naruto and Yamato. The anime team failed again, since they could have added filler where Ino and Choji are useful. What we know that Shikamaru's basic plan was to somehow get secretly some blood from Kakuzu, then he lures away Hidan to his forest where he uses Hidan to kill Kakuzu, in the meantime Choji and Ino were supposed to survive against Kakuzu waiting for Kakuzu to drop dead. But no backup plans were mentioned, a genius as Shikamaru (against Temari he said to have many more plans if the first one failed) should have them. Shikamaru simply assumed that Choji and Ino can survive against Kakuzu the time necessary for Shika to kill Kakuzu, he was completely wrong, again we see something that is true for all ninja characters of this manga: they are underestimating the enemy. After all that it's not surprising that Shikamaru wanted his generation to go and kill Sasuke, he doesn't have a clue about how strong Sasuke is. Bulma should invent not only a time travel machine but also a dimension travel machine and deliver some scouters to these stupid ninjas so they can run away in time


I think that Naruto's relationship with KillerBee will be bad in the beginning. One reason is that Naruto tends to say what he really thinks, and if that happens he will tell Bee that his rapping sucks, and that will make Bee angry. The other reason is that the old toad sage said that the octopus will offer his help to Naruto, this probably means the opposite will happen in the beginning, just like this island not being paradise but more like hell
Of course in the end Naruto and Bee will be good friends, they are too similar in many ways to not become friends

[qwertyuiopz]

what happened to karin?

[solidguy]

I like this chapter. Its good to see the lighter side of the manga, especially Naruto and his comical scenes.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

Instead, Itachi will have sealed the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword in his eyeballs (or toothballs), giving Sasuke an even greater power-up...

Pedro's tears are once again flowing like waterfalls!

[Arti]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Sasuke vs Naruto is so far off I can't even think about it. I expect them to have a few fights before then.

Reading some posts in broken Japanese on 2ch, I get the feeling that a lot of the fanbase believes Kishi will announce a timeskip after this war and Naruto's fight with Sasuke. He won't end Naruto like he originally planned. The feeling is Kishimoto isn't a very good mangaka and has come to grips that he'll never do anything but Naruto. He is too young to just retire. So he'll take a year off, release a short story about Minato, and then pick up Naruto when they are young adults.

That would suck. Naruto and Sasuke are already two of the strongest ninjas in the world. There just isn't that much room for them to improve at this point, especially once Naruto learns how to master the Kyuubi.

[Sinaura]

Kakashi's MS ability involves manipulating space-time. Tobi's abilities involve manipulating space-time....Kakashi received his sharingan from Obito.....Kakashi and Tobi's Sharingans have the same ability.....Tobi is OBITO!!!!!

/watching Ace Ventura high

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The problem was that there was nobody to lead in the battle, because both Ino and Choji were completely useless. I know that Kishimoto wanted to focus on the main characters, but i think that the fight was not written well. Before Naruto arrived Kishimoto could have had used one chapter to show Ino and Choji fighting according to some plan devised by Shikamaru. For example Shikamaru could have made a plan where Ino switches mind Hidan or Kakuzu and uses something similar to what Danzou's subordinate used, she is supposed to be a chuunin and have new jutsu, but she didn't do anything at all. Choji could have used one or two of his special soldier pills. Of course the outcome of the fight would be the same, them being rescued by Naruto and Yamato. The anime team failed again, since they could have added filler where Ino and Choji are useful. What we know that Shikamaru's basic plan was to somehow get secretly some blood from Kakuzu, then he lures away Hidan to his forest where he uses Hidan to kill Kakuzu, in the meantime Choji and Ino were supposed to survive against Kakuzu waiting for Kakuzu to drop dead. But no backup plans were mentioned, a genius as Shikamaru (against Temari he said to have many more plans if the first one failed) should have them. Shikamaru simply assumed that Choji and Ino can survive against Kakuzu the time necessary for Shika to kill Kakuzu, he was completely wrong, again we see something that is true for all ninja characters of this manga: they are underestimating the enemy.

Damn, we're back to this? I thought we were done. Okay, it's simple. Kishi used shogi analogies to explain what Shikamaru was doing. Unlike in the first fight, his target would be Kakuzu who he believed to be much stronger. And he would use Hidan's immortality against him. Here was Shika's basic plan with Ino and Choji. After learning how to use the chakra knives to make throw-able shadows, he would use an intricate tactic to trap both Hidan and Kakuzu coming back to Konoha. Then he would use kagemane to control Hidan while Kakuzu was still trapped. At this point either Hidan kills Kakuzu outright or takes some blood and preforms the Jashin ritual(which Shikamaru saw) to make certain Kakuzu was dead. Ino and Choji were backup. They were never expected to survive against Kakuzu alone. After killing Kakuzu, Hidan would then be taken to the Nara Forest when he would be blown up and scattered into the hole that Shikamaru and Choji prepared beforehand.

Now if Kakuzu were somehow able to get out of the trap(as he did) then Choji would attack as a distraction for Hidan(which he did). Now if Hidan were somehow able to break away from Shika, then Ino uses Shintenshin on him to resume the attack. Later in the fight, Shika objected to her using it because they were standing right in front of each other and she would never get the technique off in time. The whole point was to use Hidan against Kakuzu who could not kill him. Once Kakahsi joined, Shikamaru adjusted the plan. The blood vial was another backup. When you are someone who thinks 10 steps ahead, you are going to have many backups. Shika adjusted the plan to get Kakashi a clear shot at Kakuzu. To either kill him or get blood for the vial where the kagemane controlled Hidan would preform the ritual. But once Kakuzu revealed he had 5 freaking hearts, everything went out the window. Even Kakashi said bleep this.

The idea for Shikamaru to take on Hidan solo came later when they realized they were too strong working together. Shikamaru would never have left Ino and Choji alone against Kakuzu. But with Kakashi there, he adjusted. And later Kakuzu ended up paying for underestimating Shikamaru who he assumed would be quickly killed by Hidan. He lost a heart to his hubris. At that point Kakashi should have used Kamui when Kakuzu was hurting. Then the fight would be over. But then the main character wouldn't get his punching bag so Kakuzu got to survive a little longer.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

After all that it's not surprising that Shikamaru wanted his generation to go and kill Sasuke, he doesn't have a clue about how strong Sasuke is. Bulma should invent not only a time travel machine but also a dimension travel machine and deliver some scouters to these stupid ninjas so they can run away in time

Oh lord. Shikamaru's plan was for them to ALL go and fight Sasuke. He knew how strong Sasuke was otherwise he wouldn't have insisted they do it together. It was Sakura who stupidly thought she could do it alone. Kiba and Lee were also idiotic to think their four man team was a match for Sasuke. But a large group of talented shinobi? Tobirama was one of the strongest characters in the history of the series, but still died against the larger Kinkaku Force.

Sasuke is not god. Sakura...Sakura all of people had a clear shot at him thanks to his failing eyes. But hesitated and was nearly killed. A Neji, Shino, or Rock Lee would not be so weak. It's amazing what you can do when a group works together.

Spoiler for Sakura's failure:

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by DeDe

The idea for Shikamaru to take on Hidan solo came later when they realized they were too strong working together. Shikamaru would never have left Ino and Choji alone against Kakuzu.

Then why did he set up so many traps and dug a hole in territory that belongs to his clan?

[Akachou]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Then why did he set up so many traps and dug a hole in territory that belongs to his clan?

You are right. He planned it all along. He even took the vials with him. He gave it to Kakashi before the fight and he did it in order to let Kakashi fill a vial with Kakuzu's blood, so that he could use it after he would have separated Hidan from Kakuzu in order to make Hidan believe it was Shikamaru's blood.

Yes, Shikamaru planned it all along. He planned that strategy - as shown in the manga - a whole night long.