Dating

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by greedyisgood

Do tsundere type of girl really exists?

Yes, a thousand times yes. But while they're comically endearing when we see them trash on others, in reality their behavior is problematic and reflects psychological instability. If you care about having any sort of steadiness in your life, you want to avoid tsundere types, not seek them out.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by greedyisgood

Do tsundere type of girl really exists?

I personally never understood the attraction of someone who could be classified as tsundere, boy or girl. Yes, it's made out to be cute and sweet and a sign of insecurity in anime and manga, but in the real world? That's a serious hint of psychological problems and an unstable personality. What's the attraction to that?

I ask mostly because I was more or less abused for three years by a boy who could have been considered tsundere in his actions and personality. I acknowledge that I find well developed tsundere characters in anime/manga likable, but I don't see the attraction IRL.

[Kaijo]

Tsunderes in real life have issues, but usually because they were abused and hurt. There's a reason they show a tough exterior and try to keep a short leash on a guy. What's needed is understanding and caring, over a prolonged period of time to show them that it's okay.

To take an anime example, I assume most people are familiar with Akane from Ranma 1/2. Want to understand her tsundere nature? She was essentially the subject of attentions from the school bully, and subject to attacks from men practically every day; a loss meant she had to "date" them, thanks to the proclamation from the school bully. "If you want to date Akane, you must defeat her!"

Date? Yeah, right. In a more serious anime, that would have nasty implications.

Now, along comes Ranma, who's promptly declared her fiance and he can beat her, easily. To someone whose been subject to men trying to use physical force for intimacy, that would have been terrifying. Not only can he defeat her anytime he wants, but it's okay for him to take liberties with her because he's her fiance (and her father encourages it!).

Fear is a big motivator for a tsundere, or anyone who comes across as "tough" and "hard to get close to" or "tries to control people." Whether the fear is justified or not, the wrong thing to do is to ignore them; ignoring someone only makes a situation worse. You talk to them, get to know them, befriend them. Then you're in a position to show them they don't need to do those things, and everyone ends up better off.

As for the attraction, it's because if you do get to a tsundere's heart, you'll basically earn someone who is 100% loyal and trusts you totally. The bigger the challenge, the greater the reward, in effect. Someone who has a hard time trusting, will eventually see that they can trust you, and thus form a strong bond with you.

But the tsundere nature is just another way someone protects themselves.

[Otaku Emperor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Tsunderes in real life have issues, but usually because they were abused and hurt. There's a reason they show a tough exterior and try to keep a short leash on a guy. What's needed is understanding and caring, over a prolonged period of time to show them that it's okay.

To take an anime example, I assume most people are familiar with Akane from Ranma 1/2. Want to understand her tsundere nature? She was essentially the subject of attentions from the school bully, and subject to attacks from men practically every day; a loss meant she had to "date" them, thanks to the proclamation from the school bully. "If you want to date Akane, you must defeat her!"

Date? Yeah, right. In a more serious anime, that would have nasty implications.

Now, along comes Ranma, who's promptly declared her fiance and he can beat her, easily. To someone whose been subject to men trying to use physical force for intimacy, that would have been terrifying. Not only can he defeat her anytime he wants, but it's okay for him to take liberties with her because he's her fiance (and her father encourages it!).

Fear is a big motivator for a tsundere, or anyone who comes across as "tough" and "hard to get close to" or "tries to control people." Whether the fear is justified or not, the wrong thing to do is to ignore them; ignoring someone only makes a situation worse. You talk to them, get to know them, befriend them. Then you're in a position to show them they don't need to do those things, and everyone ends up better off.

As for the attraction, it's because if you do get to a tsundere's heart, you'll basically earn someone who is 100% loyal and trusts you totally. The bigger the challenge, the greater the reward, in effect. Someone who has a hard time trusting, will eventually see that they can trust you, and thus form a strong bond with you.

But the tsundere nature is just another way someone protects themselves.

I know Tsunderes.

There shouting, swearing and constently getting pissed off puts me off of them.

Sure they are loyal prehaps, but I rather them as friends and not as lovers.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Otaku Emperor

I know Tsunderes.

There shouting, swearing and constently getting pissed off puts me off of them.

Sure they are loyal prehaps, but I rather them as friends and not as lovers.

It can be tough, and not everyone is up to it. It's just important to note that they do that stuff to keep people away. There are a lot of things we humans do to protect ourselves, or to keep people away. Some just outright push people away the moment they do something they don't like. Others put up an emotional wall and don't share personal details. Still others are shy.

And some have the tough exterior. So if they are pushing you away, then it's working on you.

[Otaku Emperor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It can be tough, and not everyone is up to it. It's just important to note that they do that stuff to keep people away. There are a lot of things we humans do to protect ourselves, or to keep people away. Some just outright push people away the moment they do something they don't like. Others put up an emotional wall and don't share personal details. Still others are shy.

And some have the tough exterior. So if they are pushing you away, then it's working on you.

I'm just saying, I'd rather date someone who is nice, and doesn't do that.

I hardly see the attraction of an insecure little... nevermind.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Tsunderes in real life have issues, but usually because they were abused and hurt. There's a reason they show a tough exterior and try to keep a short leash on a guy. What's needed is understanding and caring, over a prolonged period of time to show them that it's okay.

This certainly sounds sweet, but coming from my own experience with an actual tsundere in whom I invested six years of hard time, constant attention and every effort to help her, I can say that this is probably not the answer if the person you're dealing with is a true tsundere.

A tsundere is someone who has some growing up they need to do entirely on their own, and their relationships with others are so twisted that it is exceedingly difficult and at times impossible for someone else to assist that person. Any effort to do so may be perceived as meddling or controlling, and might be met with further fear and resistance. At best you'll spend hours doing damage control to keep a tenuous status quo. At worst, you'll make things so much worse.

Fear is a big motivator for a tsundere, or anyone who comes across as "tough" and "hard to get close to" or "tries to control people." Whether the fear is justified or not, the wrong thing to do is to ignore them; ignoring someone only makes a situation worse. You talk to them, get to know them, befriend them. Then you're in a position to show them they don't need to do those things, and everyone ends up better off.

Again, sounds nice in theory, but the reality of it is that regardless of the position you are in, someone who behaves in tsundere fashion is too unstable, too unreliable to be able to receive outside help, because what may resonate with them one day may reek of betrayal the next. You really cannot help someone whose mood is subject to frequent, instantaneous, often violent change. There's something at their core that they have to work out on their own before they can begin to have real connections or proximity.

As for the attraction, it's because if you do get to a tsundere's heart, you'll basically earn someone who is 100% loyal and trusts you totally. The bigger the challenge, the greater the reward, in effect. Someone who has a hard time trusting, will eventually see that they can trust you, and thus form a strong bond with you.

And that is also a problematic way of thinking. It's a pretty picture we paint in stories that the person who cannot trust forms truly exceptional trust with others, because it's far more reassuring to say that there's a whole, healthy person there all along, just hidden beneath layers. In reality, when someone who struggles to trust finally manages to form a bond of trust with someone else, that bond is generally extremely weak, because they don't have a solid foundation on which to build. I've been there, and trust me, that bond is no less fragile and no less draining for having been hard-won.

Thinking to "fix" a broken person with the hope that the "reward reflects the challenge" is arrogant on the part of the would-be "fixer" while also demeaning and encouraging dependence in the "fixed" individual. Top it all off with this lovely part: the person who did the "fixing" has to spend their emotional energy sustaining their partner, who has little or nothing of their own to give back.

Do not take a tsundere's B.S. for any reason.

[Kaijo]

We all have issues. And we'd all like someone to be able to work past our issues and still be our friend. I know some people who'd be dead now, if others hadn't of stepped in.

And it is true that everyone is different. So you just give up on them, right? When it comes right down to it, it's self-preservation at all costs.

And people call me cynical for having a low view of humanity in general. Every time I try to see something better in someone, I'm reminded why I shouldn't try. Apparently, as always, I'm the only one willing to try.

[Pocky Yoshi]

Originally Posted by Harufox

*high fives* welcome to the club! XD

Originally Posted by Otaku Emperor

*Double Glomp*

^^ Single priddee.

Namu Namu Namu Namu.

If I ever think about dating, it has to be with a girl I feel very happy with.
Despite how much flaws, differences, and vice versa we may have together.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We all have issues. And we'd all like someone to be able to work past our issues and still be our friend. I know some people who'd be dead now, if others hadn't of stepped in.

And it is true that everyone is different. So you just give up on them, right? When it comes right down to it, it's self-preservation at all costs.

Now, now. It's true that I disagree strongly with your views on many things, but you're misinterpreting me if this is what you think I'm advocating. Stepping in to save a life is one thing. Trying to "fix" a person out of a desire to "win their heart" is the height of dishonesty. You talk about loving someone for who they are a lot, yet on the matter of tsundere types you are essentially describing a process of trying to change someone. How do you reconcile that?

The core principle of what I'm saying is that you shouldn't pursue someone whom you do not want to pursue with 100% sincerity. That means a situation where you may feel strongly attracted to a person's better aspects, but are hurt or really put off by their negative ones is one you should not involve yourself in further. It's important to work things out in a relationship, but it's not advisable to enter into a relationship that, from the first moment, already has issues attached.

"Self-preservation at all costs" is pretty extreme, don't you think? All I'm saying is be judicious with where you invest yourself. Don't walk knowingly into a gauntlet of frustration--in this case a tsundere's emotional web. I advocate this for one simple fact: there is nothing for either party to gain this way. Not only do you receive nothing in return, but the other person isn't really open to receiving whatever you'd wish to give them. Getting themselves to that point is something only that person can do.

And people call me cynical for having a low view of humanity in general. Every time I try to see something better in someone, I'm reminded why I shouldn't try. Apparently, as always, I'm the only one willing to try.

I really don't get where you're coming from here. It seems like you're reading a lot into my sentiments that really isn't there.

It's not a matter of willingness to try. It's a matter of thoughtfulness in choosing when to try and when not to. I've been in the position of giving my all to a total tsundere for six nerve-grinding years nonstop, and the ultimate lesson to be had from that is that you cannot expect someone to benefit from something they are not able to receive.

Interest, affection, love...these all require cooperation. From the way you describe yourself, I have to believe you have the willingness and energy to devote to giving from your end, and that's wonderful. But you have to be aware enough of the other people to make informed choices, you know? This isn't a shounen manga, so "just trying harder" doesn't really make everything work.

[yoropa]

Well tomorrow (really, later today, it's 1:18am) is the big prom day thing and arguably the first big date I'm going to have in my life. To be honest I'm actually quite indifferent about the whole affair. I think she is too. Not sure what is going to happen, but I'll let you know later how it ends up (maybe).

[Otaku Emperor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We all have issues. And we'd all like someone to be able to work past our issues and still be our friend. I know some people who'd be dead now, if others hadn't of stepped in.

And it is true that everyone is different. So you just give up on them, right? When it comes right down to it, it's self-preservation at all costs.

And people call me cynical for having a low view of humanity in general. Every time I try to see something better in someone, I'm reminded why I shouldn't try. Apparently, as always, I'm the only one willing to try.

I work past peoples issues! I has tons of friends who are like dat.

But I was just meaning I wouldn't want to date someone like dat, because it would be like >.<

Originally Posted by Namuskull

Namu Namu Namu Namu.

If I ever think about dating, it has to be with a girl I feel very happy with.
Despite how much flaws, differences, and vice versa we may have together.

:3 Lol Namu. Soul Calibar right? (The Ninja with teh funny mask)

[Pocky Yoshi]

Na-mu.....

[Kafriel]

What are thoughts on real life 'yandere'? Excuse me as I use the term 'yandere' loosely as it's the best way to describe. On that I would like on how dealing with them... ... Just in case.

Sometimes anime terms are too extreme to describe real characters...if we're talking about this in a very accurate manner, they're more obsessed than loving, in which case it would be best to avoid them as much as possible. If it's someone who loves you with zeal, you can always ask them to limit their actions, normal people aren't crazy. I think.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Now, now. It's true that I disagree strongly with your views on many things, but you're misinterpreting me if this is what you think I'm advocating. Stepping in to save a life is one thing. Trying to "fix" a person out of a desire to "win their heart" is the height of dishonesty. You talk about loving someone for who they are a lot, yet on the matter of tsundere types you are essentially describing a process of trying to change someone. How do you reconcile that?

Then I think you're misinterpreting me. It's not to win their heart; I've helped a lot of people over the years, with no intention of "winning their heart" with most of them. True, some of them I did have that intention; but even with those, I just wanted to help. Bottom line is: We all have issues, and thus I feel it's hypocritical to ignore someone because their issues occasionally make us uncomfortable. Because other people feel the same about us.

But I'm curious. You went after a tsundere for 6 years, apparently, and yet you were also trying to change her. Something that it seems you speak derogatorily of (changing who someone is). How do you reconcile that? Are people free to be who they are, or do they have to be changed in order to be welcomed into a clique?

"Self-preservation at all costs" is pretty extreme, don't you think? All I'm saying is be judicious with where you invest yourself. Don't walk knowingly into a gauntlet of frustration--in this case a tsundere's emotional web. I advocate this for one simple fact: there is nothing for either party to gain this way. Not only do you receive nothing in return, but the other person isn't really open to receiving whatever you'd wish to give them. Getting themselves to that point is something only that person can do.

I think you're letting you're experiences of one person color your judgment. A single anecdote does not trumps years of psychological scientific evidence. Are there some people who can't be saved? Probably. But you don't know until you try, and there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. The right way means you can help them, while the wrong way means you can't.

It's not a matter of willingness to try. It's a matter of thoughtfulness in choosing when to try and when not to. I've been in the position of giving my all to a total tsundere for six nerve-grinding years nonstop, and the ultimate lesson to be had from that is that you cannot expect someone to benefit from something they are not able to receive.

You'd take the keys away from a friend who has had a bit to drink, I'd imagine. The right way simply means you get them the help they need, regardless of what it costs you, if you can't help them yourself. If you can't help someone yourself, you can get them the help they need, but you do need the cooperation and assistance from their other friends.

Interest, affection, love...these all require cooperation. From the way you describe yourself, I have to believe you have the willingness and energy to devote to giving from your end, and that's wonderful. But you have to be aware enough of the other people to make informed choices, you know? This isn't a shounen manga, so "just trying harder" doesn't really make everything work.

I've been around a bit longer, and trust me when I say it really does. As I've said, I've helped a lot of people, some of whom no one else would. Or would even talk to. There really is no substitute for good old-fashioned caring, when done the right way, and doing so allows you to teach these people. Not everyone has the patience, of course, but it really helps a lot of people to know that you'd never leave them, and would be a friend to them for as long as they wanted.

Of course, some don't really value that, and getting involved with such a person with blinders on, will lead to repeat of past behavior. Not everyone has the strength to face their inner demons.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then I think you're misinterpreting me. It's not to win their heart; I've helped a lot of people over the years, with no intention of "winning their heart" with most of them. True, some of them I did have that intention; but even with those, I just wanted to help. Bottom line is: We all have issues, and thus I feel it's hypocritical to ignore someone because their issues occasionally make us uncomfortable. Because other people feel the same about us.

Okay, so it seems like somewhere we got derailed, Kaijo. You're talking about counseling people and being a supportive friend in general. That? I'm all for, and have frankly ridiculous amounts of experience with it. What I'm talking about is tsundere psychological issues as it pertains to the subject of this thread: dating. I am working on the assumption that greedyisgood asked if they existed, in this thread, because he was thinking about them from a romantic standpoint, and all my advocacy is against trying to get romantic with someone who is so screwed up.

What I said about winning a tsundere's heart comes from your comment a few posts back...

Fear is a big motivator for a tsundere, or anyone who comes across as "tough" and "hard to get close to" or "tries to control people." Whether the fear is justified or not, the wrong thing to do is to ignore them; ignoring someone only makes a situation worse. You talk to them, get to know them, befriend them. Then you're in a position to show them they don't need to do those things, and everyone ends up better off.

As for the attraction, it's because if you do get to a tsundere's heart, you'll basically earn someone who is 100% loyal and trusts you totally. The bigger the challenge, the greater the reward, in effect. Someone who has a hard time trusting, will eventually see that they can trust you, and thus form a strong bond with you.

Here, which sounded disturbingly like suggesting you get close to them to be the one to pull them out of their behavior and in doing so, win their romantic affections. But if that's not what you intended, fine.

But I'm curious. You went after a tsundere for 6 years, apparently, and yet you were also trying to change her. Something that it seems you speak derogatorily of (changing who someone is). How do you reconcile that?

Quite simply, I reconcile it because I admitted to myself and to everyone involved that I was wrong. It was a stupid, immature thing to do, and having made such a grievous mistake, I feel it's only natural to learn from it and do my best to discourage others from making the same mistake--vis a vis trying to get romantically involved with someone who really just needs some help. It'd be nice to think that the two are the same, but if you mix them, you end up with a poisonous codependency most times.

Are people free to be who they are, or do they have to be changed in order to be welcomed into a clique?

Of course people are free to be who they are. But you yourself are saying that these people need help, and I agree. All I'm saying differently is that this help needs to precede and be entirely independent of any romantic attachment, for the health of all involved, including the person seeking help.

I think you're letting you're experiences of one person color your judgment. A single anecdote does not trumps years of psychological scientific evidence.

Psychological scientific evidence saying what? I don't think any psych studies say that mentally imbalanced people--tsunderes--are fit to engage in romantic relationships. That's all that's relevant to this thread, and the only thing I disagree with about what it appears you are saying.

Are there some people who can't be saved? Probably. But you don't know until you try, and there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. The right way means you can help them, while the wrong way means you can't.

I agree with this entirely. Remember that this is the dating thread, and what I'm saying is that doing any such assisting with intent of romance is the wrong way. This is what I mean by people not being able to benefit from what they cannot receive. You may want to give the tsundere/otherwise-unstable-person your affections, but it won't reach them if they're not in a place of emotional health to return them from. So when you help someone like this, you have to maintain a measure of detachment so you don't potentially get wrapped up in their trauma and lose your ability to help.

You'd take the keys away from a friend who has had a bit to drink, I'd imagine. The right way simply means you get them the help they need, regardless of what it costs you, if you can't help them yourself. If you can't help someone yourself, you can get them the help they need, but you do need the cooperation and assistance from their other friends.

Again, I wholly agree with you here, but you're taking this to a wider scope than the thread or my statements are concerned with.

I've been around a bit longer, and trust me when I say it really does. As I've said, I've helped a lot of people, some of whom no one else would. Or would even talk to.

Great. And I applaud you for it. I've done much the same. But you know what? The only people that all your efforts will reach are people who are receptive to your care. Again, to link us back to the topic at hand, the reason why a romance with a tsundere is inadvisable is because they are not emotionally self-controlled enough to really put the love of another person to use in feeding their heart. It's certainly possible after they get help, but we're not talking about the merits of helping people, or what happens to a tsundere after they lose their tsundere-ness. We're talking about whether or not a true tsundere is viable dating material, and given how much you talk about helping such a person, you clearly agree with me that they are not.

There really is no substitute for good old-fashioned caring, when done the right way, and doing so allows you to teach these people. Not everyone has the patience, of course, but it really helps a lot of people to know that you'd never leave them, and would be a friend to them for as long as they wanted.

Again, it only helps someone who is receptive to it. This is what I mean by being judicious about whom you invest yourself in. You need to read the signs in a person's behavior to see if they are actually willing to accept help or not, because if they aren't, any amount of effort is wasted, period.

Of course, some don't really value that, and getting involved with such a person with blinders on, will lead to repeat of past behavior. Not everyone has the strength to face their inner demons.

I will disagree with you there. I believe everyone has the strength to face their inner demons, and doing so is far more important than age or social savvy when it comes to preparing one's self to be a kind, loving mate. Having a good friend around to work you through that is great, and having a romantic partner who will stand by you through it is wonderful, but you should never NEED your lover for you to be able to cope with your own problems. You have to have the strength to be steady within yourself before you should even consider romance.

[Shiemi]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

I believe everyone has the strength to face their inner demons, and doing so is far more important than age or social savvy when it comes to preparing one's self to be a kind, loving mate. Having a good friend around to work you through that is great, and having a romantic partner who will stand by you through it is wonderful, but you should never NEED your lover for you to be able to cope with your own problems. You have to have the strength to be steady within yourself before you should even consider romance.

In shorter words: Love yourself first, then love another. Never think/say: "I cannot live without you." Instead, think/say: "I can live without you, but I'd rather spend my life with you."

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I can mistake clingy for lack of trust very easily. I don't mind it but... I don't want it in a partner.

The problem with being clingy is that it's one of those traits that can mean a variety of things. Being clingy to your boyfriend/girlfriend/love toy could easily be viewed as a sign of lacking trust, but sometimes it's even more innocent than that. Sometimes people aren't even aware they're being clingy; they just want to spend as much time as possible with their partner.

Of course, then one asks if it's really love or just an obssession, but I digress.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

The problem with being clingy is that it's one of those traits that can mean a variety of things. Being clingy to your boyfriend/girlfriend/love toy could easily be viewed as a sign of lacking trust, but sometimes it's even more innocent than that. Sometimes people aren't even aware they're being clingy; they just want to spend as much time as possible with their partner.

Of course, then one asks if it's really love or just an obssession, but I digress.

It's ok to be clingy for fun. I'd love to be able to cuddle with my gf as much as possible, but I also understand when she would need time to herself. In other words, it's ok to be clingy so long as you don't become addicted to it and know when to take a step back and have a breather.

[Kafriel]

You can latch on your partner like a leech, as long as they don't mind^^

Of course, then one asks if it's really love or just an obssession, but I digress.

It is an obsession when people grow disrespectful towards their partners and presume to know them better than themselves (to give a shallow example, "she likes it but doesn't know it yet"), aggravating their insult even in unawareness of the fact. It is love when they understand the limits presented to them by the other, and can actually read their partner's feelings towards them without misunderstanding.