[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Who says it isn't the solution to the Logic Error?

Depends who winds up counting as "Kinzo" obviously.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Auria

Concerning that logic error, in case a fireplace was in the guestroom - a background seemed to look like it or I wouldn't have imagined, and Battler burned himself and everything he consisted of (whut) to unrecognizable ashes (that being possible set aside) would he still "exist" in that room?

He probably wouldn't..., but I think the solution involves someone setting the chain for him so he can escape through the door. Escaping through the fireplace though... I wonder if that's denied with the red? Is there really a fireplace?

[Klashikari]

Battler was confirmed in red that he was rescued and left the room. Therefore, the only problem is to figure how Kanon left the room.
The problem is that the red states pretty much that it couldn't be possible, because only Battler was the one among the 3 that left the room.

Therefore, the only 2 possibilities are that either Kanon died (since the dead does not exist for the red, as proved by Kinzo's state), or Kanon "switched" personality with something else.

[Oliver]

There is, but the fireplace is outside in the corridor, not in the room.

[Renall]

Battler has to leave, and "Kanon" and "Erika" have to be bodies, though exactly whose bodies they are is somewhat more open to interpretation. Hell, "Battler" is potentially open to interpretation.

[Judoh]

If only I could find foreshadowing for the secret cabinet/attic theory Battler had in Episode 2. It totally breaks Knox's 3rd without actually requiring Kanon to "leave the room", which (I hope) just means they never left through the door. The problem with that lies in foreshadowing for it to satisfy Knox's 8th. If we could find hints for that we'd have something more acceptable than just "he's dead so doesn't exist" or "his personality turned off" for Kanon not to exist inside the room.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If only I could find foreshadowing for the secret cabinet/attic theory in Episode 2. It totally breaks Knox's 3rd without actually requiring Kanon to "leave the room", which (I hope) just means they never left through the door. The problem with that lies in foreshadowing for one to satisfy Knox's 8th. If we could find that we'd have something more acceptable than just "he's dead so doesn't exist".

That doesn't work at all.
The room was defined as: the bedroom, the bathroom and the closet.
Anything else would be considered outside of the room, therefore, finding a way in a secret attic or whatnot would be "leaving the room".

Even if it wasn't defined this way, it wouldn't work because Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Therefore, the only 2 possibilities are that either Kanon died (since the dead does not exist for the red, as proved by Kinzo's state), or Kanon "switched" personality with something else.

I really can't see any other way.
But is there any reason as to why the witch side wasn't allowed to have Battler dead? Because I can't see any clear proof of this.
If it is possible to disappear from the guestroom by dying, then Kanon has just been a red herring since that could have happened to Battler in the first place and the logic error would have been solved easily.

Again I wonder why Erika checked something as improbable as "repeat: I'm not the rescuer" and forgot to consider something as obvious as "repeat: Kanon is still alive".

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I really can't see any other way.
But is there any reason as to why the witch side wasn't allowed to have Battler dead? Because I can't see any clear proof of this.
If it is possible to disappear from the guestroom by dying, then Kanon has just been a red herring since that could have happened to Battler in the first place and the logic error would have been solved easily.

Again I wonder why Erika checked something as improbable as "repeat: I'm not the rescuer" and forgot to consider something as obvious as "repeat: Kanon is still alive".

Hum...what about Erika didn't rescue Battler, but she rescued Kanon.

[Jan-Poo]

Well... even if she rescued Kanon from I don't know what... she still can't be the one who rescued Battler °°

And Kanon never left the room so he couldn't be "rescued" in that sense.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I really can't see any other way.
But is there any reason as to why the witch side wasn't allowed to have Battler dead? Because I can't see any clear proof of this.
If it is possible to disappear from the guestroom by dying, then Kanon has just been a red herring since that could have happened to Battler in the first place and the logic error would have been solved easily.

Still a Logic Error: Who killed him? When? How did they avoid breaking the seals?

I suppose your logic could be "Battler was, among the six First Twilight victims, the only one truly dead." Or that he did not expire until after the room sealing.

I suppose it would work, but that clearly wasn't how Battler wanted his storyline to progress.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Hum...what about Erika didn't rescue Battler, but she rescued Kanon.

We have a red saying 'only Battler left' which is the entire problem with Kanon leaving.

If you use neither the Kanon personality nor Kanon is dead theories. You end up with a paradox that says that 'Kanon doesn't exist inside the guest room' and 'Kanon doesn't exist outside the guest room'. And then he can only exist in between the two.

Actually there is a third explanation. Kanon disappeared with magic.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Still a Logic Error: Who killed him? When? How did they avoid breaking the seals?

I suppose your logic could be "Battler was, among the six First Twilight victims, the only one truly dead." Or that he did not expire until after the room sealing.

I suppose it would work, but that clearly wasn't how Battler wanted his storyline to progress.

Don't you have the same exact problems with Kanon? Who killed him? When? How?

I've seen many saying that "Erika killed Kanon" so why not "Erika killed Battler"? Anyway a suicide, or a incident works as well.

The point of "this isn't how Battler wanted this storyline to progress" is moot. At the time Beatrice had to come up with a solution to the logic error the story wouldn't progress anymore, everything was going to be resolved with a duel.

[DgBarca]

Then...
The endgame explosion was triggered when Kanon rescued Battler.

[Jan-Poo]

Plot twist!

That would be the earliest explosion ever

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Plot twist!

That would be the earliest explosion ever

I declare that it is the beginning of Episode Eig *ENDGAME*.
Cool, EP8 will be great that way.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Then...
The endgame explosion was triggered when Kanon rescued Battler.

So... Kanon doesn't exist in the guest room because the guest room does not exist anymore at this point in time?

That bomb really can solve anything!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Don't you have the same exact problems with Kanon? Who killed him? When? How?

I've seen many saying that "Erika killed Kanon" so why not "Erika killed Battler"? Anyway a suicide, or a incident works as well.

Suicide doesn't work per red, but nothing says either Battler or Kanon can't be already mortally injured at the time they enter the room. So you could have anything happen to him. He fell and hurt himself. He was shot through the window of the next room over. He struggled with one of the FT victims before fleeing and the FT victim went back to playing dead in time to be re-killed by Erika. And while we can't really say why he might do this, he could have suicided in the closet. It's about as silly a notion as turning a personality off, but like turning a personality off it essentially still works. It hopefully isn't true, but...

Erika killing either also works. But the point is if Battler wanted to do that, he should have just had himself be on the bed in the first place, dead. If he wants to let himself be killed off it's pretty easy, but any way he could do it just justifies Erika's reasoning.

[Oliver]

A Shkanontheoretical musing.

Let us accept for the purposes of this discussion that:

• "Furniture" does not have a full soul.
• A "Furniture" is a virtual entity running on a physical brain shared with other identities, whichever literary, psychological, psychiatric or other mechanism we choose for this.
• Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice are "furniture" according to this definition, running on at most two different physical bodies, presumably just one. (i.e. Shkanon)

We also know that "The nature of magic is information manipulation, lies and tricks to create a different impression of events and objects not actually observed, through inference, for ends and goals that lie within the observed universe, through human reactions to false information." Paraphrased to make it stricter, but this is essentially what Ange and Featherinne spend pages to explain.

So can anyone tell me, what exactly is the magic that is required to combine multiple furniture characters into a single soul? What do they have to lie about?!

I've been trying to come up with something sensible for the past couple of hours with no good results.

[Auria]

Uhm, I probably don't get what you say, but I always hoped we could just make

Shannon + Kanon + Beatrice => Shannon
One body shared by the three personalitys, the latter two are abandoned to make the persons soul devote themself fully to the chosen personality thus becoming a full homogenous soul. Ehhh. >:0 (*not sure if I want to know how much I misinterpreted everything*)