2010-07-12, 07:38 | Link #13701 | ||
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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And a random thought: What Okonogi is to Eva sounds roughly the same what Nanjo is to Kinzo. In a non-medical-way. Quote:
And still, even if Okonogi is the mastermind, can he still be called the "culprit"? And if he can, what does "Early part of the story" count in Knox's 1st?
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2010-07-12, 07:54 | Link #13702 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In other words it's not the Okonogi food company that is trying to remove Hideyoshi from the headship but another party or an alliance of stock holders. I think the second hypothesis is more probable, since Okonogi could step in after the take over and made them vote him as the new CEO. Considering he became the head of the Ushiromiya group in 1998 this isn't far fetched. Quote:
But even if he really meant to say he has a connection to the yakuza it could just be a story he made up. He's a man who talks in a fake kansai accent, you can't trust everything he says. On the matter of Okonogi. I think chronotrig had a similar theory some time ago, but if I remember correctly he paired that to his Nanjo theory. So it was Nanjo's grandchildren the one who was manipulated by Okonogi and so on. But the rest is basically the same. This theory however isn't much different from the Samadera culprit theory, it just changes the mastermind to another off-island enemy (Sumadera -> Okonogi) and the accomplice in the island (Kyrie -> Shannon/Kanon). The previous theory however has the advantage of explaining how Ange happened to have a fever just a day before the family meeting. It is hard to imagine how Okonogi could have done that since there is no known connection between him and Rudolf's family. Also, while the "without love it can't be seen" is definitely suspicious, Hideyoshi's and George's connection to Okonogi are even more apparent. That apart. The off island mastermind theory regardless of who is the mastermind suffers narratively from the fact nothing of the sort has been hinted before Episode4. Of course you can say that Episode4 is still a question arc, but it really came a little late.
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2010-07-12, 11:40 | Link #13704 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Doesn't work that well though, because the Yamashita gold counted hundreds of vaults and thousands of metric tons of gold, rather than just the ten that Kinzo had.
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2010-07-12, 11:49 | Link #13705 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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So basically Ange could expose some secret that would create a diplomatic incident is the only way to give to this sentence some kind of credibility.
But even then isn't "world peace" a little exaggerated? I really can't see what kind of diplomatic incident based on japan could trigger a world war. In the end I can only conclude that Okonogi is talking shit.
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2010-07-12, 11:52 | Link #13706 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Sorry for the tangent, but I have an urgent question about Battler/Kanon's escape in EP6.
Okay, I understand the premises behind how Erika was able to explain the incident. But this red truth causes a contradiction: Kanon is not inside the guest room. By itself, it's fine. But with this one, said by Beatrice to Erika: Of course. Three people --- in other words, three bodies --- went in or out. Only you or Kanon entered, and only Battler left. This is physically impossible: how can Kanon have entered the room and not have exited, but not be in the room when Erika checks the closet? EDIT: Unless Kanon somehow died inside the room, but he would still be "inside the room." |
2010-07-12, 12:04 | Link #13707 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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2010-07-12, 12:14 | Link #13708 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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But there is a red text confirmed that the people were being referred to as bodies, not personalities. At least, if I remember correctly. If Kanon's personality was no longer in the room, that's fine. But his body did not leave the room, either. It comes down to word choice, I guess: the difference between "exists" and "is." If Kanon does not "exist" inside the room, we have a logic error. If Kanon "is" not inside the room (the state of being alive) then I guess there is no problem... |
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2010-07-12, 12:16 | Link #13709 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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"World peace"
If the Ushiromiya Corporate (Eva) got hold of something which can change the world, then it is related to world peace. My line of thinking: Kinzo attempted to resurrect Beatrice(the cliff-fallen one). First try was the 19th boy from EP5, next was Sayo and Yoshiya, finally successful before he died. So he perished in peace) -> Rokkenjima incident, Eva inherited the island, she found Kinzo's research in Kwadorian -> She concealed it from the public. She revealed it to the government on the price of every successful utilization has to be used on her, she earned huge amount of money from it -> she was cured from her disease and intended to have a new life, after she murdered Ange on Rokkenjima -> Okonogi was aware of Eva's survival and hence was worried if Ange would continue to conceal the tech (which could cause war if it ended up in terrorists' hand), so he planned to kill her
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2010-07-12, 12:28 | Link #13710 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
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One interpretation: Kanon comes to save Battler. After Battler escapes and Kanon makes the guest room a closed room again he hides in the closet. Remember how he said he had a debt to pay to Beatrice? My thoughts on this go back to that butterfly brooch Beatrice had given Shannon to help her with love. Shannon in turn gave that to Kanon and eventually he learned love. He was indebted to Beatrice. And the way to fulfill that debt? To take Battler's place and save him. Once in the closet he accepts that because he can love he is no longer furniture, therefore becoming human and losing the furniture name of "Kanon" becoming his true form of Yoshiya. |
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2010-07-12, 12:37 | Link #13712 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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2010-07-12, 13:08 | Link #13713 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Though that should be an obvious alternative since I stated I believe they're the same. I just happened to give an example of another "truth." |
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2010-07-12, 14:02 | Link #13714 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Anyway, we know ever since episode 3 that the red does -not- consider dead people as "existence". The proof is the death of original beatrice and kinzo. If the dead is included as "people existence", then we would have a very gross issue with the number of people on the island and whatnot. Once someone is dead, they do -not- exist for the gameboard, which is logical since it is literally removing the piece from the board for them. Therefore, Kanon is either dead, or for those who think about personality, his persona was shut down. By no mean Kanon could leave physically the room, that's the point of Beato's riddle of this closed room.
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2010-07-12, 15:23 | Link #13716 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Age: 31
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I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon. I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people. [Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people. These reds follow on right after the first red, and I always thought they were essentially building upon the first red truth, i.e. I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. The final sentence just specifies who entered the room and who exited the room, so: I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. The red about only Battler exiting is referring to the time Erika and Kanon entered the room, until the logic error occured. Beatrice brings up the red about the guestroom after the logic error has has been fixed, (by Kanon going in the closet?), so "Kanon not being in the guestroom" after the logic error has been fixed, would not contradict the other red about Kanon in the guestroom, which is referring to the "time between when Erika and Kanon enter, until the logic error occurs.", an earlier time period. Well...those were just my first thoughts as I was reading the game. Sorry if I can't explain it well, it's a bit hard to put into words, but I prefer this to anything like Kanon dying or persona dying, because it seems possible for him to escape without breaking the seal, with the method in question possibly being able to answer some stuff in EP1-4. Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-07-12 at 15:35. Reason: typo |
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2010-07-12, 15:39 | Link #13717 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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2010-07-12, 16:31 | Link #13718 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Age: 31
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Um..haha I'm not actually sure if it was halted myself. I think the logic error existed because at that time there was no one to rescue him but it disappeared when the new information was reported. I remember how Dlanor said something like how changes will be reported when they affect the progression of the game. So this new information that Kanon could actually take Battler's place was reported, progressing the game further. And this info about the window seal being altered was reported during the duel between Beatrice and Erika. I think like that, the game may have been progressing during their duel?
Having him die...well he just has to be flushed down the bathtub |
2010-07-12, 17:13 | Link #13720 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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That and Erika had Battler freeze gameboard time when she entered the room... and yet somehow managed to interact with the trap and repair the chain lock. Ryuukishi's a little loosed on physics here. |
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