2010-07-19, 12:26 | Link #3421 | |
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"I am the 18th person" means that there are at least 18 people, and you are one of them. Furthermore, she said that she was the 18th "human", which means that she is a human. So even if you can accept that she's not really on Rokkenjima, you have to accept that she's a human named Furudo Erika. Chessboard thinking tells us that this is nearly impossible. If Ryuukishi puts up what looks like an impossible puzzle and then has to admit that the words have no real significance whatsoever (i.e. there's no puzzle at all), that would be a huge letdown for the readers. It's not Ryuukishi's style to do that.
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2010-07-19, 12:58 | Link #3422 | ||
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Calling oneself a "human" merely restricts the general set of information that we would assume about a person as a character. It by no means has an unshaken, absolute definition. To wit: We know that the entirety of Umineko is a fictional story. Thus, while we can call people like Battler, Rudolf, and Krauss "humans," they are not actually human beings in any biological sense; they're words and data comprising fictional characters. "Literary humans," if you will. Even though we agree the story is fiction, we accept that within this fictional world, these people are "real" humans living in a "realistic" universe. So we seem content to say that they are "human." But then we have a character like pre-Sorcerer Meta-Battler. The Meta-World beings call him a human. He considers himself a human, unambiguously. But he isn't a human the way the previous group is; he doesn't exist on the main stage of the game (well, arguable), and the world be does exist in is fantastic and "not real" in design. If Piece-Battler is the "mystery" Battler, Meta-Battler is the "fantasy" Battler. And yet they both are "human," yet you can't say one is "on Rokkenjima" for some reason. Or at least, Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler aren't counted as two people. It's not clear what would happen if Battler truly died before a person count, but that's a digression. So now you have a character like Piece-Beatrice or Erika with an ambiguous existence and apparent and fluid presence in both the "mystery" and "fantasy" plane (whereas Piece and Meta-Battler generally remain entirely separate). Piece-Beato calls herself a witch and not a human, yet in several places in several games very clearly is a real-life "human" on Rokkenjima. Erika calls herself a human, yet in several places behaves as if she were her Meta-self, with awareness and knowledge that a "human" character on the "mystery" plane simply should not have. Your sticking point, I think, is "on Rokkenjima." But if we agree with Featherine's apparent assumption that the game boards are themselves an internalized fiction within a fiction, "Rokkenjima" no longer clearly refers to "the 'mystery layer' realistic world Rokkenjima on which some event occurred in October of 1986." It's not clear what it refers to, or what rules it must obey, or what type of "human" is permitted to consider itself present in that space. Beatrice's occasional references to "this Rokkenjima" further stresses that the status "on Rokkenjima" is woefully incomplete. In fact, if one believes the Kakera Theory, it's impossible for Erika to blanket state herself "the 18th human on Rokkenjima," as in some instances, she never makes it there at all. If she were making an absolute statement, she would be wrong. If she were making a generalized or titular statement, she'd be right, but only for a certain set of "on Rokkenjima." But that would be useless. So my question then becomes:
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2010-07-19, 13:22 | Link #3423 | |
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Still, there hasn't yet been a ghost-Erika theory that really explains the final closed rooms of EP6. The only one that seemed to work requires that the tip about Erika being written into the story by Witch Hunters be an outright lie. Well, I will admit that the possibility does exist, if the Hachijo scenes of EP6 were indeed Featherine's guess at the answer. She might think that all games originate from things people guessed in the future, and she might have included that tip to explain why they wrote about Erika. But if that's the case and ghost-Erika is right, it means that Featherine was probably wrong about the Author theory.
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2010-07-19, 13:27 | Link #3424 |
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I think it's about even odds that either Featherine or Bernkastel is wrong about something major. What they're wrong about could be something we all believe, or it could be something we've all dismissed. But I think the notion that one or both are close to "the truth" may be misguided, so I won't be believing anything out of ep7 until the final curtain closes. I'll be waiting for some sort of "What? That's completely wrong!"
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2010-07-19, 13:29 | Link #3425 | |
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2010-07-19, 14:11 | Link #3426 |
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Renall, I don't mean to say my interpretation is correct, by I believe it's not so hard to determine which is a "human" in the context of the gameboard in a way that it's at least consistent within itself.
First off, according to the author theory the reds reflect the truth of the gameboard. So that whole argument that "they are fictional data" makes no sense under this perspective. In the story there are 17 living humans. In the story they are humans. What they actual are from a real world perspective is totally not the point. Second. The Meta-characters are not part of the gameboard and no red exists which states that a meta-character is a human. Meta-characters do not exist in the gameboard, simply by the fact that by rules magic cannot exist in the gameboard. Whenever a red truth stated by a meta-character involves a "I" or "you" it always refers to their piece counterpart in the gameboard. That being said. I believe that in the gameboard of umineko the concept of "human" is seen in a pure biological sense. In other words a human is a human body. And human must be a living human.
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2010-07-19, 14:23 | Link #3427 | |
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2010-07-19, 14:28 | Link #3428 | ||||
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2010-07-19, 14:30 | Link #3429 |
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The point of chapter 5 as Lambdadelta described "...All verdicts are overshadowed by new truths!!"
There is also the significant hint that all games are a direct consequence of the previous games. There is also the untold rule that actions by the pieces can fly in the face of blue truths presented by players, and as a consequence disolve the Blue Truth presented. Spoiler for Umineko ch 5:
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2010-07-19, 14:33 | Link #3430 | |||
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The real question here is:
Are the definition of the words used in red truths consistent through the various games? In other words, do a word maintain a constant meaning through various reds? Whenever a definition was explicitly stated, like in the case of the closed rooms, that meaning was always respected, it didn't change not even after the GM changed. It would be logical to assume the same goes for every word. But let's suppose it isn't so, then what kind of value reds have? If the meaning of a word can change without notice and arbitrarily, how exactly can they be trusted? Quote:
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2010-07-19, 14:47 | Link #3433 |
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So wait. Ange isn't a "human" because she's not "on the game board?" Then what exactly is she? Being "on Rokkenjima" has nothing to do with being human, just whether you're part of the "humans on Rokkenjima" count... whatever that means.
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2010-07-19, 14:55 | Link #3434 |
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Ange condition is akin to Rika's in Higurashi for ch 6, she has some of the memories from the previous chapter she was present in and as such is able to interact with Featherine on an observable level.
Ange understands some of the concepts of what is going on, but has not reached the "Truth" like Battler has. There is also the fact that without the third party view for Ange and Featherine, there would be a conflict created for ch 7 if Featherine simply "suddenly existed". |
2010-07-19, 15:12 | Link #3435 | |
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What I find funny is Okonogi's use of a portable shrine as a metaphor in the tea party. In Higurashi they used it as a metaphor for working together since you work together to carry it. Okonogi seems to be using it to imply that she's a pain in the ass to deal with.
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2010-07-19, 15:44 | Link #3436 | |
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In other words, there's nothing wrong with word definitions changing (and as I've said, it's even more ridiculous to have a whole Death Note-style dictionary for all words) as long as there are enough hints for us to figure out what they mean in each context. Just like how a footprint doesn't necessarily mean that the person who owns those shoes was there, but can still be used to find the answer.
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2010-07-19, 16:13 | Link #3437 |
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So anyone resolve the trick from battler’s close room? How kanon could scape from the close room? If i was Erika I will motion another logic error XD I really can’t think of a way kanon left that room except for some cheap trick like kanon end his duty to save battler and then he is no more the servant kanon but is still inside the close room
I also think maybe Erika is the 18 person in rokkenjima because she maybe the first person to arrive there after the accident and she is trying to resolve all the mysteries from the muss murders, although I really don’t like how they said in red that she killed rosa maria kyrie eva and natsuhi, THE DETECTIVE CANNOT BE THE CULPRIT even she left that role for a while. |
2010-07-19, 16:25 | Link #3438 | |
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Spoiler for Umineko ch 6:
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