[Manga] Chapter 503 Discussion

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by Spicy~Noodles

There are plenty of strong women in Naruto, just not as many or as significant to the story as the men. Anyways I'm not going to be drooling for a female character to suddenly take the lead and steal the show away from the men who made it what it is. I don't want to see Naruto turn into what the Final Fantasy series is today. I love women, but they aren't all toting guns and diving into combat with a moments notice. Women aren't solely interested in overwhelming physical/magical powers, they have interests in peaceful things too. There are strong women in Naruto, like the current Hokage and just about every other female ninja portrayed in this manga. They just behave like asian women sometimes, don't hate them because Kishimoto doesn't see women like westerners do, I didn't think women needed to be arrogant, cocky, made of muscle, and blood thirsty all the time. People like flowers and sometimes need to cry in their moment of weakness, it's apart of human nature.

I mean comon!!!! Did you not just read the latest chapter? Didn't Kushina just single handedly chain down the COMPLETE Nine tails fox when shes hanging on to a thread of life and was happy to die to save her husband and child? Kishimoto created such a selfless and powerful female character for us all to read and follow, I feel it's such disrespect to Kishimoto to toss aside such good work as if she's just a trash character. If you got a problem with how this manga is protraying women, FAIRY TAIL is pretty good and will probably suit your tastes better.

Still to dismiss a legitimate criticism, "I mean it's more probably that kishi is very lazy when he writes his women." REALLY doesn't make your argument seem all that great.

Tsunade is fairly weak as a Hokage compared to all the other. I don't know wether it's because Kishi he's sexist (probably) or because he needs Naruto to shine by surronding him with weak people.

When Tsunade is about to fight Pein (after letting the village be destroyed), Naruto basically orders her to go "take a cup of tea or something". I'm sorry but....what? If I went in front of my boss who was about to do something important to just go take a walk in front of EVERYONE I'd get fired. I know it was meant as a way of making Naruto look good but it was just so disrespectful. Is there a better way of making Tsunade appear irrelevent (which she is now because Naruto is strong enough to be Hokage, which is why she sorta went out the picture).

And then all the female Ninja are shit in the manga, basically. Sakura cries, Hinata is weak (that's her whole character), so is Ino (Shikamaru also tells Ino that all she does is whine a be a bitch in front of everyone and then her own father just totally agrees, in front of her, I mean wow), Tenten just doesn't exist, Kurenai never did anything except give a way for Shika and Asuma to bond once the later died.

There are some strong women (2 or 3) that comes from other villages (Mizukage is one) but it's just rare.

[Langus]

Unless I'm mistaken, the way Naruto told her to step back and let him handle it suggested that Pain was beneath her and she shouldn't have to sully her hands/waste her time fighting him when the village needed her. Naruto realized which priorities were important - Tsunade using her powers to save the lives of most of the village was more important at that moment, while he used his to defeat Pain.

To me that doesn't make her a weak Hokage. She and Naruto both single-handedly saved the village, just in different ways.

Anyone who insists that the female characters in Naruto are weak because Kishi is sexist isn't reading the same manga I am.

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

When Tsunade is about to fight Pein (after letting the village be destroyed), Naruto basically orders her to go "take a cup of tea or something". I'm sorry but....what? If I went in front of my boss who was about to do something important to just go take a walk in front of EVERYONE I'd get fired. I know it was meant as a way of making Naruto look good but it was just so disrespectful. Is there a better way of making Tsunade appear irrelevent (which she is now because Naruto is strong enough to be Hokage, which is why she sorta went out the picture).

Well what do you expect? The village was already destroyed when Naruto came and Tsunade was just standing there. She was already deemed useless by then.

And why are you people complaining about sexist stuff? The manga is from Japan. Go complain about other stuff that people will actually care about.

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by Langus

Unless I'm mistaken, the way Naruto told her to step back and let him handle it suggested that Pain was beneath her and she shouldn't have to sully her hands/waste her time fighting him when the village needed her. Naruto realized which priorities were important - Tsunade using her powers to save the lives of most of the village was more important at that moment, while he used his to defeat Pain.

To me that doesn't make her a weak Hokage. She and Naruto both single-handedly saved the village, just in different ways.

Anyone who insists that the female characters in Naruto are weak because Kishi is sexist isn't reading the same manga I am.

It's pretty clear from the panel right before Naruto tells her to go do whatever that Tsunade was about to get dropped.

Then Naruto tells the supreme leader of his village to take a walk.

"Oh well, it was for her own good and..."

I don't care, she's supposed to be the boss. It would not have happened with the third. Nobody would have just popped out and said "Old men like you should not have to fight people like him. Just go smoke your pipe or something...".

But their Ninja's, fighting is the only thing they do. Pein isn't worth fighting? Who is? The fifth Hokage can't decide who she's to fight?

The point is that he prevents her doing rellevant stuff and challenges her authority. I don't care that the excuse he provided seemed good.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

Tsunade is fairly weak as a Hokage compared to all the other. I don't know wether it's because Kishi he's sexist (probably) or because he needs Naruto to shine by surronding him with weak people.

When Tsunade is about to fight Pein (after letting the village be destroyed), Naruto basically orders her to go "take a cup of tea or something". I'm sorry but....what? If I went in front of my boss who was about to do something important to just go take a walk in front of EVERYONE I'd get fired. I know it was meant as a way of making Naruto look good but it was just so disrespectful. Is there a better way of making Tsunade appear irrelevent (which she is now because Naruto is strong enough to be Hokage, which is why she sorta went out the picture).

And then all the female Ninja are shit in the manga, basically. Sakura cries, Hinata is weak (that's her whole character), so is Ino (Shikamaru also tells Ino that all she does is whine a be a bitch in front of everyone and then her own father just totally agrees, in front of her, I mean wow), Tenten just doesn't exist, Kurenai never did anything except give a way for Shika and Asuma to bond once the later died.

There are some strong women (2 or 3) that comes from other villages (Mizukage is one) but it's just rare.

Tsunade was about to collapse! She was going to be killed against Pain, not because she is super weak, but because she just exhausted herself saving an entire village full of people!

You don't need to be an action girl to do something amazing, and Tsunade did do something incredible. The fact she was tired afterward is only natural.

I don't care, she's supposed to be the boss. It would not have happened with the third. Nobody would have just popped out and said "Old men like you should not have to fight people like him. Just go smoke your pipe or something...".

I think Naruto would have said exactly that to the third too. Naruto as a character isn't big on respect.

Don't dismiss it because she didn't fight. because, yeah, that's sexist too. Only in a different way.

That said, I wont deny that Kishi has a bit of a sexist tone. However, it is not full blown sexism.

Any sexism I see can be dismissed by Value Dissonence. Japanese and Western values are not the same.

Think of it from another angle. Right now, apart from a couple, the men are just as useless as the women.

Equality. lol, joking.

Seriously though, you are thinking of Tsunade and the others as women. I see them as characters. If Tsunade was man, it would have the same result.

You say Sakura cries. Oh no! A show of emotion! How dare she!

Naruto cries almost as much.

Her desition to stay out of Naruto and Sasuke, and trust them to sort things out is a bit sexist. But what do you expect her to do? Kill him? No, becasue she wants him to be redeemed. Fight the same way as NAruto is? That wont work either. If Naruto can't convince him, as well as they understand each other, Sakura has no chance. Right now, Sasuke's only emotional connection in this world is Naruto.

What would you have her do?

Ever thought the lower number of strong females is because there is a lower female count over all?

[Spicy~Noodles]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

Tsunade is fairly weak as a Hokage compared to all the other. I don't know wether it's because Kishi he's sexist (probably) or because he needs Naruto to shine by surronding him with weak people.

When Tsunade is about to fight Pein (after letting the village be destroyed), Naruto basically orders her to go "take a cup of tea or something". I'm sorry but....what? If I went in front of my boss who was about to do something important to just go take a walk in front of EVERYONE I'd get fired. I know it was meant as a way of making Naruto look good but it was just so disrespectful. Is there a better way of making Tsunade appear irrelevent (which she is now because Naruto is strong enough to be Hokage, which is why she sorta went out the picture).

And then all the female Ninja are shit in the manga, basically. Sakura cries, Hinata is weak (that's her whole character), so is Ino (Shikamaru also tells Ino that all she does is whine a be a bitch in front of everyone and then her own father just totally agrees, in front of her, I mean wow), Tenten just doesn't exist, Kurenai never did anything except give a way for Shika and Asuma to bond once the later died.

There are some strong women (2 or 3) that comes from other villages (Mizukage is one) but it's just rare.

Oh but you must have forgot the fact she used all of her chakra saving THE ENTIRE VILLAGE FROM CERTAIN DEATH, before Naruto came to save the day. Naruto was in sage mode, he knew she was gonna die if she took another step towards Pein, so much for that arguement...

Another thing, you have bad bosses who must not think very highly of you. If my boss got the living crap beat out of him, I'd tell him "Go home and rest man, I can handle it." And he would let me handle his job for a day. Get real... at least Kishimoto knows how to do it, (And just between you and me, it's probably why he got his job writing manga.)

Disrespect? What the hell? Are you nuts? He respects Tsunade so much that he didn't want to see her hurt anymore and he was ready to take on the burden that was thrusted upon her. AND LIKE A GOOD BOSS, she has faith in her employees to do the right thing and not mess it up. I'm sorry that this manga wasn't set in McDonalds or Taco Bell where arrogant power tripping managers strut their stuff and treat their employees like shit.

Don't you worry, Tsunade is back and she'll be back in the picture before you know it. Don't get your panties in a bunch when shes back in the picture. So currently TWO of FIVE kages are female. What do you need now? Five out of Five? So Sakura can defeat Sasori and be weak at the same time, Temari can chop down entire stretches of forest with a single stroke of her fan and be weak at the same time, Kushina can hold down the nine tails in her dying moments and be weak at the same time, Hinata can take massive damage from Neji plus a shot straight in the heart, NOT DIE and be weak at the same time. Ino can be as strong as she wants to be as long as she takes over the mind of the right person. Tenten is very minor like Choji but she can still whoop some ass. Kurenai uses Genjutsu and plus we don't see a lot of action from her. Chiyo, is a senile old woman who can still hold her own plus resurrect Garaa from the dead at her ripe old age, is she weak too?

You keep looking at the character's moment of weakness and forget to look at their moments of glory. The women may not be as powerful as Naruto or Sasuke, and they might prefer to be nurses and doctors as opposed to being front line soldiers. Are you going to fault them for that? It's sheer ignorance and shallow mindedness to look at only a person's flaws and ignore a person's gift and talent. It's too bad everyone can't do what you want them to do, your world must be the ideal one for us all.

Strong people look at others and recognize their strengths and weaknesses, weak people, look down on others and lie to themselves to make them feel better. Because we all know, the easiest person to lie to is yourself.

[herculan]

I don't like the fact that naruto has only half of the demonfox sealed inside of him... Something will have to happen with the other half.. I simply don't like it... Naruto needs to be the utmost strongest force existing in the naruto-verse.. Nothing should even come close.. and for that he needs the full strenght of the strongest biyuu...

[Bombo]

I'm really sad with scene minato and kushina
I hope the damn madara die asap..!!!

waiting list :
1- Rin's death.
2- Uchiha clan.

still waiting for their story =).

[Ashaman]

This was a rather sad chapter all the way through.

Who else thought the cover art was heartrenching? A taste of what life would be like if Naruto had a family instead of the lonely and loveless life he grew up in.

[xip]

What a lazy work by Kishi, skipping the part on how Madara escaped from Minato. He might have overdone the Minato ownage to the point he couldn't come up with any idea on how Madara would escape from the fight.

[milan kyuubi]

I aspected more kyuubi atacking/destroing Konoha, yet Minato stoped him minutes after Madara unleashed him.

Also how does Kushina who barely had any chakra now can sustain herself and even stop kyuubi where Minato only had a time/chakra for a short conversation with Naruto?

[DragoZERO]

Oh man. I was hoping for a longer fight, but this is still awesome. Seeing the Third and everyone young was so cool. We should get a prequel series after Naruto ends titled "Konoha" - that'd be sweet.

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by DeDe

"But, my daughter, you're a woman."
"at the least, entrust the will of fire to the child who is my future grandchild!'
"make it a promise to your father here ...I have faith in you."

It just reads to me that Kishi feels that women are just baby machines and that is the greatest thing they can accomplish in this manga. Breeding the next generation. Plus, Kurenai was about 14 at this point. I'm sorry, but that is creepy. If my dad said that to me at that age.

At least though this might mean we will get to see Kurenai give birth and Shikamaru play daddy.

He probably doesn't NEED any more power-ups, but i would still enjoy watching him destroy Madara.

As for women being baby machines, i'm sorry you saw it that way. That wasn't even a direct quote. The girl (don't care to remember her name) was going to rush off to help everyone with the Fox and get herself killed. There was nothing wrong with the grandfather or father telling her to live long enough to raise a child.

[Kakosan]

Dear All:

I just realized that the site onemanga is going to be closed. This is a great loss, indeed.

[Luminion Lancer]

-Wait, wait, wait, wait a moment; Kushina could have dragged the Kyuubi with her to death? And yet Minato decides to die as well by sealing half the chakra in Naruto? Am I the only one to think that is kinda irresponsible for a parent? I mean, if Kushina dragged it down, then the Kyuubi would die and there would be no Kyuubi for Madara to use regardless. And yet by sealing the Kyuubi, Minato basically preserved it for Madara's use later on. So instead of actually raising his son and sparring him from what is essentially the "shitty fate of the jinchuuriki", he decides to die in the sealing process. I'm aware this would make for a very different Naruto experience but I cannot help but think of "the things that could have been".

-Ah whatever, the chapter was good and touching. At least we now know the story behind it and that Madara is a bastard whose days have been numbered. Now we just have to get back to reality from "Flashback land".

[james0246]

^You misunderstood the sequence. Kushina could have dragged the demon with her to hell, but it would have just come back later (and probably sooner rather than later), and Madara would have swooped in and taken the beast without any interference. The Shiki Fuin seems to be the only option that limited Madara's potential (mostly by putting half of the Kyuubi's chakra out of circulation forever).

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actually now that the chapter is out, it seems like Minato actually doesn't know a more conventional sealing method; despite them being friends with whirlpool who were experts on the subject and capable of sealing the kyuubi within themselves... Minato weighs their options, and there does not seem to be any option to seal it without resorting to the deathgod... I guess Kumo and Sand got the good seals since they had non sacrificial methods that placed the demons inside of jars...

Actually he wasn't looking to seal the Kyuubi in a host. He was looking to remove it completely from existence which he said was impossible. Hence the death god to take half the chakra which was the limit and sealing the remaining portion in Naruto, who he believed to be the Destined child.

Also there is a great deal of difference between sealing the other Demons and the 9 Tails. I really doubt the seals that worked for the other Demons would work on 9 Tails.

First option was to let Kushina become the host, die, and thus temporarily kill the kyuubi... however the indicate that it would eventually come back (which finally gives an answer to what happens when to the demon when a host dies, but raises the question as to why Kyuubi would help keep Naruto alive when dying would lead to his freedom)...

Many of us already theorized this was the case, but good to finally have an official answer. My guess as to why Kyuubi helps Naruto would be to keep Madara from controlling him since he would really just be going from one form of imprisonment to another.

Y'know... much of this could have probably been avoided if they had kept a few Eddy Ninjas around; y'know have a backup host in case something happens to the current one... Also putting more study into sealing a demon without the self sacrifice... ah hindsight

Again, Minato stated it was impossible to completely seal the 9 Tails, its understandable that to seal half it would require a heavy toll. I think you're confusing Minato's intentions of removing the 9 Tails from existence with sealing it in a host temporarily.

[Kenu]

I enjoyed finding more about Naruto's parents.

But I'm quite over Tobi/Madara Sharingan leet hacks and general whining.

It's no wonder Konoha wiped out the Uchiha clan, they are so annoying starting from the original Madara. Sore losers, complainers & general pain in the arses nothing really has changed with the Uchiha's.. Madara to Sasuke massive cry babies.

So he lost out to Shodaime Hokage as the leader, well go and make your own hidden village rather than sulk.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by james0246

^You misunderstood the sequence. Kushina could have dragged the demon with her to hell, but it would have just come back later (and probably sooner rather than later), and Madara would have swooped in and taken the beast without any interference. The Shiki Fuin seems to be the only option that limited Madara's potential (mostly by putting half of the Kyuubi's chakra out of circulation forever).

-I suppose I can concede to that but did they not state that the Kyuubi is a natural occurence that happens whenever human malice reaches some critical point, something that happens once every 100 years or so? It might be some translation error or someting, but that is what I know about how the beast appears, which is why I thought it was rather pointless of Minato to seal the Kyuubi now and let Madara have it 16 years later as opposed to 100 years. Still, if the Shiki Fujin can lock half of the Kyuubi chakra away (the dark half) for eternity, then I guess it is better than nothing, even though it made Madara's job easier of getting it (Kyuubi extraction seems to be effortless for him). But then again, Naruto took that chakra away so I don't know how easy it will be for him now.

[xip]

I wonder what were the so called genius clan up to during night of the kyuubi attack?