One Piece - Chapter 595 (manga)

[Kallen4life]

I didn't notice his DF being better then model Wolf or Giraffe

and Bluenos was nice

[Munty192]

No one piece this week.....that sucks

[shankss]

Neko Neko No Mi was not the most powerful but Lucci had the extreme potential to turn it into a killing machine.It would be no more different than that dalmatian vice admiral at the hands of cannon fodder.
Unless some REAL mythical monster like Dragon,Hydra,Gryphon or Chimeira appears (because just admit it, Phoenix sucked big time...) Lucci owns the zoan business.

[ZeroForever]

cause the standard zoan abilities + regeneration and flight are awful...
seriously people Marco was fighting evenly with Kizaru which everyone agrees is greatly stronger then Lucci.

[shankss]

Originally Posted by ZeroForever

cause the standard zoan abilities + regeneration and flight are awful...
seriously people Marco was fighting evenly with Kizaru which everyone agrees is greatly stronger then Lucci.

Yes he was regenerating, flying and kicking cannon fodder around till he got outwitted and get his ass kicked by a vice admiral.Distracted? Kizaru is wandering around in goofy mode 24/7 and not even Whitebeard managed to land a hit on him.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by shankss

(because just admit it, Phoenix sucked big time...)

Yeah, it was pretty lame how Marco survived magma punches from Akainu, and laser beams from Kizaru, and don't even get me started on the flight aspect. Just having spots and extra strength is obviously waaaaaayyy better.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by shankss

Yes he was regenerating, flying and kicking cannon fodder around till he got outwitted and get his ass kicked by a vice admiral.Distracted? Kizaru is wandering around in goofy mode 24/7 and not even Whitebeard managed to land a hit on him.

And being a big cat would protect you from getting distracted/outwitted how exactly?
(also i don't recall whitebeard ever trying to hit kizaru... Also it's wrong to assume that just because Kizaru wanders around, that he has actually dropped his guard against REAL opponents)
Ya, Marco's personal use of his abilities has no bearing on the fact that the pheonix Zoan is WAY more powerful than Lucchi's leopard. Really Marco would have kicked his ass by the simple fact that it's so damn hard to do any real damage to him; not to mention While Marco was trading blows with kizaru, Lucci was only fighting on even ground with Luffy (who stands no chance against the likes of an admiral)

And hell another Zoan i'd bring up is X.Drake's ancient Zoan... A full transformation provides deadly bitting power, and i might expect that a partial transformation might provide incredible physical strength (downside of full transformation is the tiny arms). kinda like a dragon but without the fire and wings.

[shankss]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

And being a big cat would protect you from getting distracted/outwitted how exactly?

Outwit him if you can, put a seastone and he can still kick your ass without leopard.Outwit him and put a bullet to brain and you will still get your ass kicked.
Outwit Marco and he will beg for you to take it off.But thats more of a character personality.Which renders Marco the ultimate loser for such a devil fruit.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

(also i don't recall whitebeard ever trying to hit kizaru... Also it's wrong to assume that just because Kizaru wanders around, that he has actually dropped his guard against REAL opponents)

Whitebeard had to focus on Kizaru to prevent him from killing Luffy, while Luffy was climbing the crab's path.For some reason the man with king haki couldnt manage to stop Kizaru and took his laser willingly instead.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Ya, Marco's personal use of his abilities has no bearing on the fact that the pheonix Zoan is WAY more powerful than Lucchi's leopard. Really Marco would have kicked his ass by the simple fact that it's so damn hard to do any real damage to him; not to mention While Marco was trading blows with kizaru, Lucci was only fighting on even ground with Luffy (who stands no chance against the likes of an admiral)

The thing here is, yes its very hard to damage Marco, but can he do any damage at all? How in hell a bunch of lesser sanji like kicks can effect Lucci, hell anyone? He negates lasers and magma cool, but so does Blackbeard.At least BB can break their faces.So far, Marco's ultimate attack was a pathetic haki kick which has been easily avoided by Akainu.

My point is not that Lucci had the strongest uber hax devil fruit :
Phoenix zoan is just a weird mixture of Brook immortality and Pell's flight.Either Marco is completely clueless about its usage or there is nothing extremely powerful about it.He was just like an annoying fly that is not capable of dying in the middle of battlefield so that Onigumo decided to get rid of him.

This is a complete defensive devil fruit and so its far from being the strongest.

[paradox13]

The thing here is, yes its very hard to damage Marco, but can he do any damage at all? How in hell a bunch of lesser sanji like kicks can effect Lucci, hell anyone?

Are you serious? I'm asking because I don't usually see you troll on these forums, but this time I'm not so sure.

Marco and Lucci are not even on the same level, never mind Sanji.

I'm sure Marco can defeat Lucci without using his fruit.

[Distinction]

The point is probably that while Marco would destroy Lucci, its because he is way stronger ( with Haki etc.) than him without even considering the Dfs.
So if Marco and Lucci would be equally strong physically and Haki wise, Lucci would win with his Df against Marco (imo).
Marco couldnt even damage Akainu with Haki and a pheonix kick and he is considered as closest to beeing a Younko. That means that while it gives strong regeneration and flying it doesnt multiply his physical power.

[Kallen4life]

Akainu must have some defence against regular haki - vista sliced his shoulder, but he ignored it

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by shankss

Outwit him if you can, put a seastone and he can still kick your ass without leopard.Outwit him and put a bullet to brain and you will still get your ass kicked.
Outwit Marco and he will beg for you to take it off.But thats more of a character personality.Which renders Marco the ultimate loser for such a devil fruit.

Marco can still fight too... only problem is the fact that the people he has to deal with are at the very top. Lucchi would get DESTROYED If he had to fight anyone worthwhile without his devilfruit... hell based on the explanation of Zoan increased strength, Luffy could have beaten him no problem without the zoan increasing his strength

The thing here is, yes its very hard to damage Marco, but can he do any damage at all? How in hell a bunch of lesser sanji like kicks can effect Lucci, hell anyone? He negates lasers and magma cool, but so does Blackbeard.At least BB can break their faces.So far, Marco's ultimate attack was a pathetic haki kick which has been easily avoided by Akainu.

My point is not that Lucci had the strongest uber hax devil fruit :
Phoenix zoan is just a weird mixture of Brook immortality and Pell's flight.Either Marco is completely clueless about its usage or there is nothing extremely powerful about it.He was just like an annoying fly that is not capable of dying in the middle of battlefield so that Onigumo decided to get rid of him.

This is a complete defensive devil fruit and so its far from being the strongest.

Do you have ANY idea of what level Marco is fighting on?
Marco is going toe to toe with ADMIRALS, the very best of the best. Sanji's kicks could never compared to his... Sanji is not even close to his level. If his kicks did not seem effective then that is just a testament to the strength of his opponents. The admirals do not get by on their devil fruits alone; Haki means that they do have to be prepared to fight physically and deal with physical attacks, and when challenged with Haki they fight back and hard. Even if Sanji could hit an admiral he is unlikely to do any real damage because the admirals are just THAT strong...

And really, the ONLY reason Onigumo got that chance of his was because Marco was fighting much stronger opponents and was being distracted with his comrades... he got caught off guard, and any fighter of a lower level can pull off such a move when his opponent drops his guard. I mean that was a big factor in the chapters, where Marco and Jozu faltered and fell not because they were weak, but because they were too worried about Whitebeard and Ace

There are fighters that rely on there devil fruits, but that's NOT what you're dealing with in the new world, and the top tier fighters. Devil fruits alone will not get you very far; And the simple fact that Marco was Whitebeard's number one man is a testament to how hard a fighter he is

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Akainu must have some defence against regular haki - vista sliced his shoulder, but he ignored it

I think haki is just not the end all be all against Logias... it's like a fight between Haki's...
If you have Haki but the logia does not, then you win and are able to hit him
If you both have Haki then your Haki clash... if you break even or if the logia wins, then the devil fruits evades the attack like normal; though you're haki may leave some lingering pain
In order to really hit the logia you need to overpower his Haki with your own... The fact that Akainu kept standing is just part of what makes him so badass... this is also how the admrials, combing their strength could stop whitebeard's attack; alone he's too tough, but together they can overcome the haki

[paradox13]

A flick of Marco's finger > Sanji's kicks..

So if Marco and Lucci would be equally strong physically and Haki wise, Lucci would win with his Df against Marco (imo).

No.

If Marco and Lucci were equally strong physically and haki wise, Marco would stlil own Lucci. Lucci might be more powerful physically (from the effects of his fruit), but Marco would shrug off his attacks due to his regeneration. Eventually Lucci would succumb to fatigue and Marco's attacks, whilst Marco wouldn't even have a scratch on his body.

Furthermore, the power of flight is nothing to scoff at.

Akainu must have some defence against regular haki - vista sliced his shoulder, but he ignored it

Haki just removes the intangibility aspect of a logia fruit.

Akainu is just a tough bastard, and a scratch hardly hurt him. If Vista cut off his arm with haki, I'm sure he'd not ignore that.

[Kallen4life]

Haki just removes the intangibility aspect of a logia fruit.

evidently only Kings Haki can do that for sure

Akainu is just a tough bastard

that is true, however

and a scratch hardly hurt him

read that panel again - that was NOT just a scratch .. a slice like that on a normal body is likely fatal


most likely

I think haki is just not the end all be all against Logias... it's like a fight between Haki's...
If you have Haki but the logia does not, then you win and are able to hit him
If you both have Haki then your Haki clash... if you break even or if the logia wins, then the devil fruits evades the attack like normal; though you're haki may leave some lingering pain
In order to really hit the logia you need to overpower his Haki with your own... The fact that Akainu kept standing is just part of what makes him so badass... this is also how the admrials, combing their strength could stop whitebeard's attack; alone he's too tough, but together they can overcome the haki

this is true

[paradox13]

Haki enables you to hit logia. It doesn’t take away their powers. So pretty much it’s a fight between a paramecia and a swordsman (in the case of Akainu and Vista)..roughly speaking a logia without intangibility would be a paramecia (I know this isn’t exact, just trying to make a comparison).

If someone chopped off Zoro’s arm, I could see him ignoring it like nothing happened. Akainu is as tough a bastard as Zoro, so ignoring his injury had nothing to do with haki in my opinion, but it was just his drive and his character to ignore injuries whilst on the battlefield. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kallen4life]

yes well, there wasn't any blood from that HUGE slice - I take that as him not receiving that injury, Vista's haki was not enough to penetrate logia defence, if haki depends on determination and drive, then Akainu is like in the top3 of OP in that aspect (the other being WB and Luffy)

[Distinction]

"If Marco and Lucci were equally strong physically and haki wise, Marco would stlil own Lucci. Lucci might be more powerful physically (from the effects of his fruit), but Marco would shrug off his attacks due to his regeneration. Eventually Lucci would succumb to fatigue and Marco's attacks, whilst Marco wouldn't even have a scratch on his body."

If normal Zoans attack multiplyer would be so low than Zoan would be sooo bad that i cant belive it is. It is like comparing Marco vs WB. And while i know that Lucci with Df and the physical power of Marco still isnt as strong as WB the difference should be still so high that Lucci would win. Because Att>Def.
And the thing with fatigue is imo on contrary to what u say as Marco has a limit for his regenaration while physical limits are ridicolous in OP.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

This really isn't a debate here. CP9 are small fry in comparison to the elites in the One Piece universe. Lucci doesn't stand a chance against Marco, and I don't think that needs to be elaborated on.

[ZeroForever]

eh... I'm pretty sure your trolling but in case you're not you can believe what you want.

It's not worth my time trying to explain something to someone that doesn't really want to listen. At least everyone else seems to understand the difference displayed between the 2 and that Marco is considered one of the strongest characters and likely successor of the WB pirates for a reason.

[Distinction]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

This really isn't a debate here. CP9 are small fry in comparison to the elites in the One Piece universe. Lucci doesn't stand a chance against Marco, and I don't think that needs to be elaborated on.

I dont see it as a debate between people but rather about the different Zoan Dfs. I agree that this is the wrong place but because of the break its imo better to discus smth than nothing even if the theme might be trivial.