[Manga] Sasuke is stronger than Yondaime

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I've proven my original point that the inside is hollow, and you still haven't definitively shown that the aura provides a solid defense. I hardly call this facts. More like we each have a theory with facts supporting both interpretations.

LOL at Susanoo being hollow.

Susanoo is a warrior entirely made of CHAKRA originating from the caster. Every single bit of chakra around the caster is Susanoo. In its initial incomplete stage, Susanoo manifests as an aura of chakra; in later stages, the same chakra eventually forms a complete skeletal frame and the accompanying muscles.

Remember when Itachi utilized his Susanoo to press Sasuke against the wall? If Susanoo is hollow inside, the moment Itachi reaches for Sasuke's eye at close range, Sasuke should be able to attack Itachi in person. However, Sasuke was not able to move at all. Why? Because between Sasuke and Itachi there was no space - all the space between them was filled with the chakra that is Susanoo.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The strength of shodai's cells gave him a physical boost but it was mentioned several times that using Mokuton takes a huge toll on his chakra. Karin notes his chakra plummeted right after using Mokuton and Madara said that it takes constant effort just to maintain control of Shodai's powers.

Combine that with Iganazi, his other jutsu and his age (the drop in Sandaime's chakra over the years was big part of his troubles with Oro); he's someone who shouldn't be able to last long in a high-level battle. But that was enough to nearly match Sasuke. Though admittedly, he was trying to conserve chakra when he could.

Think about him as a Kakashi with 11 Sharingan running on a body not made for them + pure unstable Senju DNA to hold it together. Danzou had an unnaturally huge chakra pool but an extremely taxing fighting style.

I think you could say there's nothing definite about what kind of chakra pool is needed to match Sasuke's current state. The higher the better of course. Someone like Kakashi who's drained in 1 or 2 MS attacks probably not going to do too so hot. But I don't think being a chakra powerhouse is necessary either. It's more about the jutsu at disposal.

Note that I never made the argument that Minato couldn't match Sasuke because he would run out of chakra too soon, as far as we know (which is little) they are both in the high chakra bracket for "regular" human and that's that.
The discussion about chakra started when Slayerx stated that Minato could just attack Susanoo over and over with gigantic Rasengan which is something he simply cannot do contrary to Naruto.
If Minato were to beat Susanoo it wouldn't be with a massive spam of extremely powerful chakra-consuming jutsu but probably with a mix of Seals, cunning and smart use of Space/Time Ninjutsu is what I'm saying.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Remember when Itachi utilized his Susanoo to press Sasuke against the wall? If Susanoo is hollow inside, the moment Itachi reaches for Sasuke's eye at close range, Sasuke should be able to attack Itachi in person. However, Sasuke was not able to move at all. Why? Because between Sasuke and Itachi there was no space - all the space between them was filled with the chakra that is Susanoo.

That's just nonsense. He wasn't being pressed up against anything. He had his back to a wall and was scared shitless because nothing he could do would stop Itachi.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That's just nonsense. He wasn't being pressed up against anything. He had his back to a wall and was scared shitless because nothing he could do would stop Itachi.

Now this is really nonsense.

Sasuke is an opportunistic person. In all his fights he has never let go of any opportunity to strike, irrespective of how small the window of opportunity is. If there is really a space between Itachi and Sasuke, Sasuke would've struck Itachi when Itachi was close enough to take his eye, especially when Sasuke knew that Itachi was already showing signs of weakness himself.

There's no space for Sasuke to strike at all, even when he is inside of Susanoo. He was scared because he knows he has no chance to physically hit Itachi inside of his own Susanoo, not because he suddenly forgot how to fight LOL. So your little theory of how Susanoo is hollow is practically rubbish.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Now this is really nonsense.

Sasuke is an opportunistic person. In all his fights he has never let go of any opportunity to strike, irrespective of how small the window of opportunity is. If there is really a space between Itachi and Sasuke, Sasuke would've struck Itachi when Itachi was close enough to take his eye, especially when Sasuke knew that Itachi was already showing signs of weakness himself.

There's no space for Sasuke to strike at all, even when he is inside of Susanoo. He was scared because he knows he has no chance to physically hit Itachi inside of his own Susanoo, not because he suddenly forgot how to fight LOL. So your little theory of how Susanoo is hollow is practically rubbish.

What's Sasuke gonna do in that situation? He lost his sword, used up all his other weapons, had no chakra, and collapsed of exhaustion less than a minute after "winning". He was screwed and he knew it. Even half-dead, Itachi had the stamina to keep going and still had chakra to spare. The part about Sasuke knowing he couldn't hit Itachi inside Susanoo is bunk. He'd never seen the technique before, and doesn't know how it works other than the obvious.

This nonsense about him being pinned comes from nowhere. He obviously isn't retrained in any way, and his limbs are clearly able to move because he knees are shaking out of fear. He'd be pressed up against that wall like a pancake if he were being restrained. He's just terrified.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

What's Sasuke gonna do in that situation? He lost his sword, used up all his other weapons, had no chakra, and collapsed of exhaustion less than a minute after "winning". He was screwed and he knew it.

Anything is better than waiting for Itachi to gouge his eye. We all already know that Sasuke is not a guy who would simply let go of any opportunity to strike. So the one reason he never hit out against Itachi was simply because he couldn't, not because he thought he couldn't

If Sasuke is the kind of guy who simply gave up hope whenever the tide turned against him, he wouldn't have attacked the mirror shield when he saw Itachi's Susanoo weakening. To say that he would simply give up because he thought he would lose proves that you never understand Sasuke's fundamental character.

Even half-dead, Itachi had the stamina to keep going and still had chakra to spare. The part about Sasuke knowing he couldn't hit Itachi inside Susanoo is bunk.

Nonsense. If Sasuke can actually move inside of Itachi's Susanoo, he would at least try to physically prevent Itachi from reaching his own eye. The physical conditions of Itachi was a lot worse than Sasuke's - Itachi was ill and coughing blood while Sasuke was just tired, he was not even bleeding profusely. But against an opponent physically much weaker right in front of him, Sasuke never move a muscle, why? Because all the space between him and Itachi was blocked off by Susanoo's chakra.

This nonsense about him being pinned comes from nowhere. He obviously isn't retrained in any way, and his limbs are clearly able to move because he knees are shaking out of fear. He'd be pressed up against that wall like a pancake if he were being restrained. He's just terrified.

LOL. It's funny to see you equating 'shaking' with 'moving'. Sasuke never move an inch after he was surrounded by Itachi's Susanoo. He simply couldn't. And he is not someone who would get so scared that he forgot how to fight. Maybe Naruto would, but not Sasuke.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Anything is better than waiting for Itachi to gouge his eye. We all already know that Sasuke is not a guy who would simply let go of any opportunity to strike. So the one reason he never hit out against Itachi was simply because he couldn't, not because he thought he couldn't

He attacked three different times and exhausted all his options trying to strike a desperate final blow. He couldn't do any more. He knew it. Sasuke isn't some mindless berserker (at least not at that point). There comes a point where fighting isn't possible anymore. Sasuke was trying to run and got cornered. That's why he hit the wall.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Nonsense. If Sasuke can actually move inside of Itachi's Susanoo, he would at least try to physically prevent Itachi from reaching his own eye. The physical conditions of Itachi was a lot worse than Sasuke's - Itachi was ill and coughing blood while Sasuke was just tired, he was not even bleeding profusely. But against an opponent physically much weaker right in front of him, Sasuke never move a muscle, why? Because all the space between him and Itachi was blocked off by Susanoo's chakra.

Basing your entire premise on Sasuke's inaction is a flawed argument. He isn't acting pinned. Eyes wide, knees shaking, rapid heartbeat. Textbook fear. See his fight with Naruto back in part one for what getting pinned (to water in this case) looks like.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

LOL. It's funny to see you equating 'shaking' with 'moving'. Sasuke never move an inch after he was surrounded by Itachi's Susanoo. He simply couldn't. And he is not someone who would get so scared that he forgot how to fight. Maybe Naruto would, but not Sasuke.

No, he didn't move an inch, because he was scared. He is someone who can get scared enough to not fight. He's done it as a kid, and no one loses that reflex.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He attacked three different times and exhausted all his options trying to strike a desperate final blow. He couldn't do any more.

Wrong, against Itachi who was already terminally ill and coughing blood, all Sasuke needs to prevent Itachi from taking his eye is perhaps a punch - something he is more than capable of performing, considering his physical condition was a lot better than Itachi's. Of course, he couldn't because of Itachi's Susanoo.

Sasuke not being to do anything at all is a nonsense argument. Anyone who is not physically impaired can do something, even if he is tired or scared. Sasuke not showing any resistance at all - non even a minor struggle proves my point that he is, in fact, incapable of action because of Susanoo's chakra.

He knew it. Sasuke isn't some mindless berserker (at least not at that point). There comes a point where fighting isn't possible anymore. Sasuke was trying to run and got cornered. That's why he hit the wall.

LOL he never hit the wall voluntarily. Itachi used his Susanoo to press him against the wall, after which Sasuke couldn't move, even if Itachi was in front of him.

Basing your entire premise on Sasuke's inaction is a flawed argument. He isn't acting pinned. Eyes wide, knees shaking, rapid heartbeat. Textbook fear. See his fight with Naruto back in part one for what getting pinned (to water in this case) looks like.

The one flawed argument is your ridiculous assumption that someone would simply give up his eye because he's scared, LOL.

And no, knees shaking or whatever nonsense is not the same as physically moving your limbs. Sasuke is incapable of movement after he was inside of Itachi's Susanoo - whatever you say, you'll never be able to show me any evidence showing Sasuke moving inside of Itachi's Susanoo. Because there's none.

No, he didn't move an inch, because he was scared. He is someone who can get scared enough to not fight. He's done it as a kid, and no one loses that reflex.

Itachi coughing up blood was an intimating figure? Sasuke never hit Itachi because of Susanoo's constraint, not because he was afraid of a guy who was coughing blood and breathing heavily.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Wrong, against Itachi who was already terminally ill and coughing blood, all Sasuke needs to prevent Itachi from taking his eye is perhaps a punch - something he is more than capable of performing, considering his physical condition was a lot better than Itachi's. Of course, he couldn't because of Itachi's Susanoo.

Sasuke not being to do anything at all is a nonsense argument. Anyone who is not physically impaired can do something, even if he is tired or scared. Sasuke not showing any resistance at all - non even a minor struggle proves my point that he is, in fact, incapable of action because of Susanoo's chakra.

The very chapter you cite proves the opposite. He's scared. It shows. Every bit of body language is textbook fear.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

LOL he never hit the wall voluntarily. Itachi used his Susanoo to press him against the wall, after which Sasuke couldn't move, even if Itachi was in front of him.

Making things up. If he were pinned against the wall, as you claim, he wouldn't be looking back and say "a wall" like it's some sort of surprise. He couldn't move because he was afraid. It's abundantly clear from the following panels, and the anime shows the same.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

The one flawed argument is your ridiculous assumption that someone would simply give up his eye because he's scared, LOL.

Because people don't do that in real life ever? You're being unreasonable. Why didn't Sasuke try to kick Itachi while being put in a chokehold way back in Part 1? If, as you say, he takes every conceivable opportunity to strike, why then sit still for what he knows to be coming? Does this not count? Get some perspective. The characters can act like human beings.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

And no, knees shaking or whatever nonsense is not the same as physically moving your limbs. Sasuke is incapable of movement after he was inside of Itachi's Susanoo - whatever you say, you'll never be able to show me any evidence showing Sasuke moving inside of Itachi's Susanoo. Because there's none.

Because he's scared, not because he's pinned. Pinned people don't stand like that.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Itachi coughing up blood was an intimating figure? Sasuke never hit Itachi because of Susanoo's constraint, not because he was afraid of a guy who was coughing blood and breathing heavily.

He was afraid of a half-dead guy who still had the energy to manifest an invincible skeletal demon that protected him. Don't take it out of context.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The very chapter you cite proves the opposite. He's scared. It shows. Every bit of body language is textbook fear.

It proves Sasuke was intimidated by Itachi's Susanoo. It certainly doesn't prove that Sasuke was abandoning any resistance simply because he was scared, LOL. Really, twisting evidence simply makes you looked less credible, not that you are credible in the first place, of course.

Making things up. If he were pinned against the wall, as you claim, he wouldn't be looking back and say "a wall" like it's some sort of surprise. He couldn't move because he was afraid. It's abundantly clear from the following panels, and the anime shows the same.

Ok, after unsuccessfully trying to equate 'movement' with 'shaking', now you are trying to equate 'movement' with 'slight turning'. Really, maybe you'll equate 'movement' with 'sneezing' next.

Because people don't do that in real life ever? You're being unreasonable. Why didn't Sasuke try to kick Itachi while being put in a chokehold way back in Part 1?

Comparing a seasoned ninja with ordinary people is ridiculous. Maybe you yourself would stop fighting in a similar situation, but for Sasuke who was so insistent on killing Itachi? Not a chance.

If, as you say, he takes every conceivable opportunity to strike, why then sit still for what he knows to be coming? Does this not count? Get some perspective. The characters can act like human beings.

That's because he was not sitting still. He was forced to sit still by Susanoo's chakra. Seriously, anyone who believe that a person can sit still while an enemy is about to gouge your eye needs to take a reality check.

Because he's scared, not because he's pinned. Pinned people don't stand like that.

A scared person, especially a ninja who has fought countless battles would still show at least some resistance, if he or she is capable of course, when faced with a potential threat. So your theory is really not practical at all.

He was afraid of a half-dead guy who still had the energy to manifest an invincible skeletal demon that protected him. Don't take it out of context.

You are simply incapable of understanding the simple fact that a scared person would still show signs of struggle, if he or she is capable of struggling. The fact that a ninja is completely immobile while the enemy is in the process of taking out his eye is proof that the person is incapable of movements that otherwise would've saved him.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

It proves Sasuke was intimidated by Itachi's Susanoo. It certainly doesn't prove that Sasuke was abandoning any resistance simply because he was scared, LOL. Really, twisting evidence simply makes you looked less credible, not that you are credible in the first place, of course.

Likewise to you.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Ok, after unsuccessfully trying to equate 'movement' with 'shaking', now you are trying to equate 'movement' with 'slight turning'. Really, maybe you'll equate 'movement' with 'sneezing' next.

Now you're just being purposefully obtuse. He turns around to look at the wall because he backed into it, not because he was shoved into it. Get it?

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Comparing a seasoned ninja with ordinary people is ridiculous. Maybe you yourself would stop fighting in a similar situation, but for Sasuke who was so insistent on killing Itachi? Not a chance.

Because ninjas aren't humans? Ninja never cry or get scared or try to retreat in the face of overwhelming force? Even Sasuke, who's so intent on killing Itachi, has a breaking point. Losing all hope of victory is that point. This is how people act.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

That's because he was not sitting still. He was forced to sit still by Susanoo's chakra. Seriously, anyone who believe that a person can sit still while an enemy is about to gouge your eye needs to take a reality check.

Ok, reality check. Why don't hostages in any robbery ever bolt like madmen when guns are being jammed in their faces? Or attempt to overpower their captors even though they are vastly ill-equipped to do so? Or even when they are? (I could bring up a specific example, but it feels like it'd be in bad taste here.) Again, real people can get so scared that the instinct to survive simply shuts down. Same thing here. Faced with an unbeatable foe who even half-dead is more of a powerhouse than he is, Sasuke ran out of options.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

A scared person, especially a ninja who has fought countless battles would still show at least some resistance, if he or she is capable of course, when faced with a potential threat. So your theory is really not practical at all.

Trying to claim ninja are above human standards when this manga has repeatedly shown that they are human despite attempts to make a better soldier shoots your point down. Now you're basing your entire argument on the fact that a ninja should be above basic human instinct.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

You are simply incapable of understanding the simple fact that a scared person would still show signs of struggle, if he or she is capable of struggling. The fact that a ninja is completely immobile while the enemy is in the process of taking out his eye is proof that the person is incapable of motion.

Or proof that the person is too scared to do so. Sorta like that guy who tried to set up Naruto in the beginning and got an ass-kicking by a thousand clones. He was a Chunin. He could have handed Naruto his ass if he'd just kept calm.

Look, I'm gonna make this simple. Name one point, in that entire scene, where Sasuke mentions that he can't move. He would if he were being held down. He doesn't. Instead he goes wide-eyed, his knees start shaking, and he sits there a like a deer in headlights.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Now you're just being purposefully obtuse. He turns around to look at the wall because he backed into it, not because he was shoved into it. Get it?

He was completely surrounded by Susanoo's chakra, so he turned to see if there is any gap from which he can escape. It turns out that there is no gap at all between Susanoo's chakra and the wall, so he has no way of escaping.

There is always a purpose to Sasuke's every action. In this case, he turned to see if there is any chance for him to escape. Obviously, there are people like you who think that a ninja would take irrational actions, or no action at all, simply because he was scared. Heh.

Because ninjas aren't humans? Ninja never cry or get scared or try to retreat in the face of overwhelming force? Even Sasuke, who's so intent on killing Itachi, has a breaking point. Losing all hope of victory is that point. This is how people act.

Of course there is a breaking point for Sasuke. The point came when he realized that he couldn't move a muscle inside of Itachi's Susanoo. In other words, he broke because he knew he cannot do a thing against Itachi - not even laying a punch on him as Itachi is the only one capable of movements inside of his own Susanoo.

He was not broken as a result of seeing a monstrous Susanoo and suddenly abandoning all hope of survival as claimed by you.

Faced with an unbeatable foe who even half-dead is more of a powerhouse than he is, Sasuke ran out of options.

If there is a space between Itachi and Sasuke inside of Susanoo, Itachi wouldn't be invincible LOL. Itachi was invincible because Susanoo was protecting him even when Sasuke was inside of the same Susanoo.

Look, I'm gonna make this simple. Name one point, in that entire scene, where Sasuke mentions that he can't move. He would if he were being held down. He doesn't. Instead he goes wide-eyed, his knees start shaking, and he sits there a like a deer in headlights.

LOL, why don't you show me a pic where Sasuke actually moved inside of Susanoo? You don't need to be saying 'I moved!' to start moving.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

He was completely surrounded by Susanoo's chakra, so he turned to see if there is any gap from which he can escape. It turns out that there is no gap at all between Susanoo's chakra and the wall, so he has no way of escaping.

There is always a purpose to Sasuke's every action. In this case, he turned to see if there is any chance for him to escape. Obviously, there are people like you who think that a ninja would take irrational actions, or no action at all, simply because he was scared. Heh.

So wait, Sasuke can't move in Susanoo's chakra, but he can turn his head with ease to look at a wall? So Sasuke can move inside the chakra then. But he doesn't. If, as you say, the chakra keeps him from moving, why can he move his head? The chakra is an aura that completely envelops him, is it not? Why is his head exempt?

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Of course there is a breaking point for Sasuke. The point came when he realized that he couldn't move a muscle inside of Itachi's Susanoo. In other words, he broke because he knew he cannot do a thing against Itachi - not even laying a punch on him as Itachi is the only one capable of movements inside of his own Susanoo.

He was not broken as a result of seeing a monstrous Susanoo and suddenly abandoning all hope of survival as claimed by you.

As we've just established above, and you've admitted, he did move. He turned his head to find an escape route. If he can do that, the rest of him would move fine.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

[I]If there is a space between Itachi and Sasuke inside of Susanoo, Itachi wouldn't be invincible LOL. Itachi was invincible because Susanoo was protecting him even when Sasuke was inside of the same Susanoo.[/U]

It could have protected him. It wasn't at the time. It didn't need to. Sasuke gave up.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

LOL, why don't you show me a pic where Sasuke actually moved inside of Susanoo? You don't need to be saying 'I moved!' to start moving.

Again, see above. You now have established movement. He turned to see that he was against a wall. Ergo, he could move.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

So wait, Sasuke can't move in Susanoo's chakra, but he can turn his head with ease to look at a wall? So Sasuke can move inside the chakra then. But he doesn't. If, as you say, the chakra keeps him from moving, why can he move his head? The chakra is an aura that completely envelops him, is it not? Why is his head exempt?

Obviously the chakra prevents him from making any significant movement, including laying a punch on Itachi, or running away. Minor, insignificant movements such as 'shaking' or 'turning' is possible.

Really, if you are struck between two concrete walls, you could still forcibly turn your head because turning your head would not require space - you'll simply need to overcome the friction inherent in the walls. However, try making a punching action when you are stuck between two walls? You can't, because there is insufficient space for you to do so.

It could have protected him. It wasn't at the time. It didn't need to. Sasuke gave up.

Sasuke wouldn't give up if he know Susanoo is not protecting Itachi. He gave up precisely because he knew Susanoo was protecting Itachi, even when Sasuke himself is inside Itachi's Susanoo. Here's the facts: Susanoo would protect the caster even if the enemy is inside of it - so your chief argument of bypassing Susanoo is COMPLETELY FALSE.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Obviously the chakra prevents him from making any significant movement, including laying a punch on Itachi, or running away. Minor, insignificant movements such as 'shaking' or 'turning' is possible.

And this is what we call twisting the facts. Making a punch and turning your head both require effort, one more than the other but regardless effort all the same. Any outside force pinning him in place would affect his head. It's not like being pinned between two walls. By your idea of how the aura functions, it would be like being hit by a constant amount of pressure from every angle. If he turned his head, it wouldn't be turning back.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Really, if you are struck between two concrete walls, you would still forcibly turn your head because turning your head would not require space - you'll simply need to overcome the friction inherent in the walls. However, try making a punching action when you are stuck between two walls? You can't, because there is insufficient space for you to do so.

If you were stuck between two walls, your head would immediately be forced to one side, because the force of two walls crushing you would affect your head first. Your head is not smaller than your neck. You'd be able to punch to either side, though, while Sasuke doesn't even try.

Sasuke turned his head and turned it back, therefore no force is being applied in either direction.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Sasuke wouldn't give up if he know Susanoo is not protecting Itachi. He gave up precisely because he knew Susanoo was protecting Itachi, even when Sasuke himself is inside Itachi's Susanoo. Here's the facts: Susanoo would protect the caster even if the enemy is inside of it - so your chief argument of bypassing Susanoo is COMPLETELY FALSE.

You're almost right. He did give up when he realized he couldn't beat it, but that was before Itachi was all in his face. He tried to run, found a wall, then had Itachi in front of him. As to the other part, yes it would protect them, by moving its physical parts to intercept the attacker. The aura itself would not.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Making a punch and turning your head both require effort, one more than the other but regardless effort all the same. Any outside force pinning him in place would affect his head. It's not like being pinned between two walls. By your idea of how the aura functions, it would be like being hit by a constant amount of pressure from every angle. If he turned his head, it wouldn't be turning back.

Maybe you should stop confusing a 'punch' with a 'turning' LOL. A punching action requires space, and there is no space in Susanoo. A turning action requires no space, all it needs is for the person to overcome the friction.

If you were stuck between two walls, your head would immediately be forced to one side, because the force of two walls crushing you would affect your head first. Your head is not smaller than your neck. You'd be able to punch to either side, though, while Sasuke doesn't even try.

Maybe it eludes you that Itachi may adjust his Susanoo's pressure so as to not crush Sasuke's skull? Because, he was obviously not going to kill his brother in case you forgot. LOL, what makes you jump to the conclusion that Itachi would use his Susanoo to exert a pressure so great that it would actually kill his brother. You are really making no sense.

Sasuke turned his head and turned it back, therefore no force is being applied in either direction.

Whether or not the force is there is insignificant, there is no space between Itachi and Sasuke inside of Susanoo. Susanoo is still capable of protecting Itachi even if Sasuke, an outsider, is inside it.

Our original argument was whether or not an outsider can bypass Susanoo's protection by getting into it. Itachi proved to us that you cannot bypass Susanoo's protection, irrespective of whether you are inside or outside of it.

I won the chief argument.

-
-
-

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Maybe you should stop confusing a 'punch' with a 'turning' LOL. A punching action requires space, and there is no space in Susanoo. A turning action requires no space, all it needs is for the person to overcome the friction.

Wrong. Turning does require space. Is your head perfectly round with absolutely no bumps whatsoever? I really hope not. Your head is not evenly shaped, and therefore space is required to turn it. More to the point, you've again contradicted yourself. If Susanoo is nothing more than heavy friction in all directions, then Sasuke's arms, which can apply far more force than his head can, would be able to move inside it.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Maybe it eludes you that Itachi may adjust his Susanoo's pressure so as to not crush Sasuke's skull? Because, he was obviously not going to kill his brother in case you forgot. LOL, what makes you jump to the conclusion that Itachi would use his Susanoo to exert a pressure so great that it would actually kill his brother. You are really making no sense.

It eludes me where you're getting the pressure from. I don't recall either Itachi or Sasuke mentioning anything about pressure. Perhaps you'd show me where.

If Itachi were applying enough pressure to Sasuke to literally pin him still, his knees would be rigid, not bent and shaking. What you're proposing simply doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Whether or not the force is there is insignificant, there is no space between Itachi and Sasuke inside of Susanoo. Susanoo is still capable of protecting Itachi even if Sasuke, an outside, is inside it.

Our original argument was whether or not an outsider can bypass Susanoo's protection by getting into it. Itachi proved to us that you cannot bypass Susanoo's protection, irrespective of whether you are insider or outside of it. I won the chief argument.

Itachi didn't prove anything. Sasuke did not retaliate and get defeated, nor did he try at all, upon coming face to face with Itachi. All three attacks were blocked by the shield. You've won nothing.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Wrong. Turning does require space. Is your head perfectly round with absolutely no bumps whatsoever?

Man, you must have flunked physics. Is chakra a solid material? No. The chakra will fit against Sasuke's head when it constraints him.

I really hope not. Your head is not evenly shaped, and therefore space is required to turn it.

Rubbish. Chakra is not a solid material with one strict shape. Itachi maniplates Susanoo's chakra to envelop Sasuke based on Sasuke's physical attributes, so there is no gap between the chakra and the wall.

More to the point, you've again contradicted yourself. If Susanoo is nothing more than heavy friction in all directions, then Sasuke's arms, which can apply far more force than his head can, would be able to move inside it.

Susanoo is chakra, and everything (even air) has friction. Learn your physics. Really, if you really want to prove that he can move inside of Susanoo, by all means show us a panel or something. All the panels showed us he was incapable of mounting any serious resistance against Itachi, even when Itachi was all 'OMG i'm weak and couging blood now!'

It eludes me where you're getting the pressure from. I don't recall either Itachi or Sasuke mentioning anything about pressure. Perhaps you'd show me where.

The pressure thing was started by you LOL. Reread you own posts to save yourself further embarrasment.

If Itachi were applying enough pressure to Sasuke to literally pin him still, his knees would be rigid, not bent and shaking. What you're proposing simply doesn't work.

I think I've just said Itachi was not exerting any pressure to crush Sasuke. He was enveloping Sasuke with Susanoo's chakra so that there is no space for Sasuke to move or escape.

Itachi didn't prove
anything. Sasuke did not retaliate and get defeated, nor did he try at all, upon coming face to face with Itachi. All three attacks were blocked by the shield. You've won nothing.

Itachi proved to us that Susanoo protects the caster even if the enemy is inside of it. Whether I've won the argument or not is not for you to determine, sir. Looking back at all our arguments, any reasonable person would know that you are speaking nonsense, as in 'OMG I'm so afraid of a weakened guy! Please take my eyes now!' type of nonsense.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Obviously the chakra prevents him from making any significant movement, including laying a punch on Itachi, or running away. Minor, insignificant movements such as 'shaking' or 'turning' is possible.

I had to intervene

Yes Itachi pushed Sasuke into the wall.....



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

But Itachi didn't preform any pressure on Sasuke, he was simple walking to him while Sasuke tried to put some space between them. Thats why he said ''a wall'', he couldn't put any space between them self.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

If he can't move than how is it possible that in next panel he can move his head.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Also this is a face of fear and mostly shock. This things are holding him in one palace not Itachi's Susano'o.

So morbosfist is I believe correct in his posts.

[Rydrallen]

All the panels shown by you prove that there is no 'hollow space' inside of Susanoo which would otherwise allow Sasuke to mount a counter-attack.

--


So what if he is shocked? So what if he shakes his arm or turns his head a bit? He was totally incapable of physically attacking an opponent who is beginning to show extremely visible signs of weakness.

---

There is but one explanation: Susanoo protects Itachi, so any assaults against him is futile. Sasuke knows it, hence he was completely helpless. It's ridiculous to say that Sasuke would simply let Itachi take his eye if he is still capable of significant motion inside of Itachi's Susanoo. Especially if he knows one punch may simply knock out the weakened Itachi and ends his Susanoo.

---