Sexuality

[Haruka_Kitten]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

So, bit of a question here on sexuality... I realize there's some potential for a flame war here, but I'm curious. I was discussing sexuality with one of my friends recently, and it really made me wonder: is sexuality something we choose, or something programmed into us that we need to figure out?

Debate on nature vs. nurture, go!

My own comments: basically, for me at least, I only felt the choice I had to make was to acknowledge that I was bisexual. I knew pretty quickly in high school that I was attracted to girls as well as guys, and for a long time I did nothing about it until my first year of college, where I had the support and friendship to finally accept it and be open about it. I never felt like I really "chose" to be bisexual; it was just always there.

So yeah, I guess for me, my sexuality is more of something I chose to accept, instead of something I chose at all, if that makes any sense.

Thoughts?

I'll totally agree with that. When I was around 15 (and claiming to be either straight or Asexual (Not attracted to either one...hey...it was during a time when I clearly wasn't interested)), I do have to admit that there was just something about cute guys that had me going back to them and wondering "Wow...he's cool..."

I think...a perfect example of this is "Tom Chilton", British Touring Car Driver. Google him, see what is said.

I continued to deny it I guess, because at the time I had the self esteem of a mouse and saw it as merely something I had to get over. Even so, the signs were pretty obvious. I did act a damn slight feminine (but not over the top feminine...I just found it comfortable to cross my legs).

I have to say, my first boyfriend merely acted as a catalyst. Seeing him really kicked something loose in my head, and for the good.

What then I deal with on a daily basis is the homophobia. The assumptions. People assume things about both me and my friends because of who I am, as both a furry and a homosexual. They assume that we must all be unstraight, and that's just wrong (amongst my close friendship circle of 5 people, only one of them was a bisexual, making me the only gay in the group, and they support me all the way). They also assume that I must like being molested and touched by men, which is totally untrue, because that's not arousing, that's just sexual assault. I usually have my voice drowned out by derogatory comments, by one person in my Accounting class. While these I don't take seriously (1/25 students...pfft), it is rather annoying to have everything I say butted in and questioned. I do believe he refused to wish me a happy birthday because "He's gay, so he doesn't count", making him the first openly homophobic person I know at my school, and the one that I deal with frequently.

So after Accounting, this phrase sort of wrapped itself around my head, what with all the stories my partner has shown me about teenage suicide and gay bashing, amongst today's Accounting class:

Spoiler:

Dear Homophobe,

So how many lives have you ruined today?

.

On the 20th, I have to try and dig for something purple to wear, to commemorate Spirit day, to remember those who have lost their lives to senseless bullying over something that really shouldn't be such a big problem. While I can never see peace and harmony amongst gay people and others, since when have we really been satisfied with each other?

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Pansexual is generally considered a branch off bisexual, since by definition it is somewhat similar. Also assuming by "TSTVs" you mean someone who is changing/has changed their gender, then no that's the wrong way to view the differences between them as some bisexuals would be fine with them at least, but personally I'm just fine with that as I would be with a normal girl or guy; realistically people who bisexual still consider gender/gender identity of the person who they're interested to be of some importance to at least be considered still even if they're interested in both, while someone would be defined be a attracted to a person regardless/without considering/judging based off[not sure which is best to word that here] of what their gender and/or gender identity are.

Interesting little side comment on that from me, I have to admit that for a long while that was why I considered calling myself pansexual instead of bisexual. I certainly noticed people by their gender, but I could be attracted to someone regardless of that anyway. In the end though I'm fine with saying I'm bi, since it's pretty much very similar to calling yourself pansexual anyway, and plus I've found that saying I'm bi tends to get less "Eh?" reactions than saying I'm pansexual.

[Throne Invader]

Despite leaning towards the nurture side back when I first learned about this certain controversial issue, at the present, I find myself more of in between now. I cannot even tolerate the level of ignorance of certain members of strong faith in my religion. It's beyond incomprehensible and some comments just sound so unsympathetic and ignorant. I am pretty sure of myself that although some kids can be affected by their environment and can become homosexual, some, maybe more or less of equal proportion, or more are born with it. There are many findings that support both nature and nurture but in my opinion nature's side exhibits more stronger evidence. It's also possible in my opinion that both nature and nurture can be involved in the development/acknowledgement of an individual's orientation.

My opinion on bisexuality on the other hand is that I'm pretty sure environment is involved. Pansexuality is well, a bit hard for me to grasp as of now xD

I personally don't think you can choose your orientation but you can choose to act upon it and to acknowledge it just like what RadiantBeam said.

[Envy]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

So, bit of a question here on sexuality... I realize there's some potential for a flame war here, but I'm curious. I was discussing sexuality with one of my friends recently, and it really made me wonder: is sexuality something we choose, or something programmed into us that we need to figure out?

Debate on nature vs. nurture, go!

It's not a debate over nature vs. nurture, because I really don't know which one of those it is, but I do know it is not a choice.

If my sexuality would have been a choice I would be bisexual. But I can't like men in that way. It's gross to me, and I just am not...turned on... by them. I didn't choose it this way. For various reasons I've always felt that I am supposed to like men, but it just isn't that way. If anybody would have chose their sexuality, it would have been me.

With this I don't understand how anybody argues it is a choice. Do they just not understand what sexuality is? You don't choose what turns you on. You can try to deny it, but you can't choose it.

As I said earlier, I don't know about nature or nurture, but the argument of whether it is a choice or not is asinine. Especially for those homophobes who find the thought of doing it with the same sex disgusting. That is not your homophobia telling you that, that is your sexuality. Which you obviously didn't choose! It's always funny to run into this:

Homophobe: "Being gay is a choice."
Me: "Oh really, well lets see you choose to be gay right now."
Homophobe: "No! I can't do that, that is disgusting!"
Me: "I wonder why."

[synaesthetic]

It's both.

We are the product of our environment and our biology.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Envy

With this I don't understand how anybody argues it is a choice. Do they just not understand what sexuality is? You don't choose what turns you on. You can try to deny it, but you can't choose it.

As I understand it, people tend to argue it's a choice on the basis that regardless of your own impulses, you still ultimately choose how to act on them, if at all. Basically, you can feel homosexual impulses, but you could theoretically 'choose' to have heterosexual relationships. It's a flimsy argument and not worth any consideration, but it comes up from time to time.

Sexual ambiguity is a pretty tricky topic and sometimes you do feel attractions that go entirely against what you are. I have a lesbian friend who is VERY definitively lesbian, was her whole life, never had denial issues with it, never paid the social pressure one whit of attention, always dated girls, never felt anything for guys...until one day, she met the one man in the entire world who just does it for her, and they ended up getting married. Does that make her bisexual? I think not. Outside of this one man, she still exclusively finds women attractive.

I think that, sadly, interesting stories like that sometimes get bent by homophobes. I can definitely tell you she did not suddenly 'choose' to be attracted to this man.

[Kaijo]

The age old question of nature vs. nurture. You'll get many responses from many people, but my current evaluation is that it's both. You can become attracted to someone on the basis of your genes, and on how you were brought up.

On one hand, sex was developed by nature as a way to reproduce, so it's very existence is gene-based (nature). In that light, everyone who isn't straight is essentially suffering from mutant genes, but despite how that sounds, it's not a bad thing. Random variation means we're going to get a large number of different people.

Also, consider that if I were to take you and apply certain techniques, I could make you "gay" or "straight." This would argue to sexuality being nurture-based. Aside from that, people are capable of convincing themselves of anything (we still have a Flat earth Society around, after all). We have gay people who marry someone of the opposite sex and live a normal life. And we have people, both gay and straight, who take up vows of celibacy and/or never marry or date.

Which is a longer way of saying there ain't no clear answer. Pretty much you have to decide for yourself after studying the pros and cons. You are the person who ultimately has to live with your life, and you have to decide the trade-offs you want to make. Do you bow to your family's wishes and let them run your life? For how long? Or do you strike off on your own? Life is a series of trade-offs.

This is starting to drift, but the question of sexuality, and of nature vs. nurture, is a complex one, and ultimately the your own answer will come from what you decide you can live with.

As a last word, one of my personal peeves in general is labels. It's a very human thing to do, as we want to understand something and if we can put a label on a box, it brings us a sense of comfort. But people are rarely so cut and dry as to be labeled so easily, so I feel the more important point is to just be with who you like to be with, relationship AND friend-wise.

[Envy]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

As I understand it, people tend to argue it's a choice on the basis that regardless of your own impulses, you still ultimately choose how to act on them, if at all. Basically, you can feel homosexual impulses, but you could theoretically 'choose' to have heterosexual relationships. It's a flimsy argument and not worth any consideration, but it comes up from time to time.

Yeah, then I don't understand why we give these people any power at all. They want homosexuals and bisexuals to deny what they are, just for their own personal prejudices, when a different sexuality does not hurt anybody? They should not be taken seriously.

I would understand if it was something that was actually harming others, but it isn't.

Sexual ambiguity is a pretty tricky topic and sometimes you do feel attractions that go entirely against what you are. I have a lesbian friend who is VERY definitively lesbian, was her whole life, never had denial issues with it, never paid the social pressure one whit of attention, always dated girls, never felt anything for guys...until one day, she met the one man in the entire world who just does it for her, and they ended up getting married. Does that make her bisexual? I think not. Outside of this one man, she still exclusively finds women attractive.

I think that, sadly, interesting stories like that sometimes get bent by homophobes. I can definitely tell you she did not suddenly 'choose' to be attracted to this man.

I haven't thought too much about that, but I know that nothing in this world is black and white, so yeah it's possible that somebody's sexuality could change over time, but it still is far from a choice.

[Nogitsune]

I don't see how sexuality could be a choice. A nurture thing rather than a nature thing, maybe, but not a choice. As far as I'm concerned, that claim is just a convenient way for homophobes to dismiss other people's right to try and be happy.

If my asexuality was a choice, I'd be celibate, not asexual. Sure, I could go ahead and have sex simply for the randomness of it, but I might as well french kiss my dog. It's just far from desirable to me.

[synaesthetic]

I am not "compelled" to date women. Nobody is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to do so. I choose to date and have sex with women. I enjoy it. I am proud of that choice.

I do not appreciate people calling it an irresistible compulsion that I have no choice in. I also do not appreciate the religious right using my choices against me, either. Just because something is a choice does not give the fundies, creationists, geocentrists and various other morons the right to strip my rights away.

I hate ketchup. Loathe the stuff. That's a choice. I am not irresistibly compelled to not eat ketchup. I will not die if I ingest ketchup (though I may be a little grossed-out). Does that mean it's okay to use the law to force me to eat ketchup? Fuck no.

Sexual attraction is a preference like any other. We don't choose our preferences, but we definitely choose how we act upon them. And that choice should not be vilified. By claiming irresistible compulsion, we're also giving tacit approval to the idea that homosexuality is not a good thing.

Some food for thought.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I am not "compelled" to date women. Nobody is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to do so. I choose to date and have sex with women. I enjoy it. I am proud of that choice.

I do not appreciate people calling it an irresistible compulsion that I have no choice in. I also do not appreciate the religious right using my choices against me, either.

Hm, I agree with the choice thing, but if you chose not to date women, how would that change your sexual orientation?

I've never seen it argued that dating someone is not a choice just because you're attracted to them (then again, I can imagine there'd be people who think so. There are alwys people who think so).

Edit: Oh, you prolonged that (either that, or my pc was being strange). xD All right, I definitely agree, then.

[synaesthetic]

Yeah, it's not really the argument that attraction is intrinsic that bothers me. What bugs me is that the way the LGBT community handles this issue goes something like this:

Fundie: Homosexuality is a choice and a sin! God didn't make you that way! YO BUTT AIN'T MADE FOR THAT!

Gay Person: But I can't help it; I was born that way!

You see the problem? Not once did the gay person refute the idea that homosexuality is inherently bad. And the LGBT community as a whole has serious issues with this. They assert the fact that attraction is intrinsic, but they ignore the more important issue of whether homosexuality is moral. (Which it's not even a question of morality, of course, but the fundies make it as such).

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Yeah, it's not really the argument that attraction is intrinsic that bothers me. What bugs me is that the way the LGBT community handles this issue goes something like this:

Fundie: Homosexuality is a choice and a sin! God didn't make you that way! YO BUTT AIN'T MADE FOR THAT!

Gay Person: But I can't help it; I was born that way!

You see the problem? Not once did the gay person refute the idea that homosexuality is inherently bad. And the LGBT community as a whole has serious issues with this. They assert the fact that attraction is intrinsic, but they ignore the more important issue of whether homosexuality is moral. (Which it's not even a question of morality, of course, but the fundies make it as such).

I agree with you here, as regardless of if it's a choice or not the LGBT community should be defending that's there is nothing wrong with homosexuality morally either way.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Yeah, it's not really the argument that attraction is intrinsic that bothers me. What bugs me is that the way the LGBT community handles this issue goes something like this:

Fundie: Homosexuality is a choice and a sin! God didn't make you that way! YO BUTT AIN'T MADE FOR THAT!

Gay Person: But I can't help it; I was born that way!

You see the problem? Not once did the gay person refute the idea that homosexuality is inherently bad. And the LGBT community as a whole has serious issues with this. They assert the fact that attraction is intrinsic, but they ignore the more important issue of whether homosexuality is moral. (Which it's not even a question of morality, of course, but the fundies make it as such).

I agree, though I can kind of see why one would do that. The people they are trying to reason with are usually not exactly the most open-minded ones around, so as long as they think there's a choice, most of them will cling to their beliefs. That means they would not be worth debating with in the first place, except that there are far too many of them to ignore.

I also see a difference between discriminating against a group because of something they can't control (being black, being something other than heterosexual, being a woman, ...) and shunning them because of something they have a definite choice in, like dressing in bright pink or dark colours every day. Both is wrong, but one is a more serious issue because even if my life is turned into a living hell because of it, I can not change my sexual orientation. I can just pretend I did.

Though every time someone goes into bashing mode because BDSM is compared to homosexuality, I want to hit something. As far as I know, BDSM is much more than just a kink for many people. I also went wtf recently thanks to people going into bashing mode because some a- and heteroromantic asexuals self-identify as queer, but that's another story.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Fundie: Homosexuality is a choice and a sin! God didn't make you that way! YO BUTT AIN'T MADE FOR THAT!

Me: Wise men say: "every hole is a goal."

[Otaku Emperor]

I personally think Homosexual people are fine with me ^^

Because Homosexuality, whether it be a choice or not (I don't think it's really a choice though) It is still love <3 And love is what matters most out of anything!!!

So I think those people who restrict gays from marrage should go to hell, cause they are getting in the way of love, romance and happiness for those people!

[synaesthetic]

Marriage isn't about love, anyway. It's about taxes.

[Otaku Emperor]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Marriage isn't about love, anyway. It's about taxes.

But theres the symbolic thing about marrage that is beautiful <3

The pledge to be with someone forever and love them forever

<3

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Otaku Emperor

But theres the symbolic thing about marrage that is beautiful <3

The pledge to be with someone forever and love them forever

<3

Until you get divorced, at least.

I'm sorry, I'll stop now. I couldn't resist.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

As I understand it, people tend to argue it's a choice on the basis that regardless of your own impulses, you still ultimately choose how to act on them, if at all. Basically, you can feel homosexual impulses, but you could theoretically 'choose' to have heterosexual relationships. It's a flimsy argument and not worth any consideration, but it comes up from time to time.

Sexual ambiguity is a pretty tricky topic and sometimes you do feel attractions that go entirely against what you are. I have a lesbian friend who is VERY definitively lesbian, was her whole life, never had denial issues with it, never paid the social pressure one whit of attention, always dated girls, never felt anything for guys...until one day, she met the one man in the entire world who just does it for her, and they ended up getting married. Does that make her bisexual? I think not. Outside of this one man, she still exclusively finds women attractive.

I think that, sadly, interesting stories like that sometimes get bent by homophobes. I can definitely tell you she did not suddenly 'choose' to be attracted to this man.

In your friends' case, since she didn't care about social pressure in the first place, what I'm about to say probably doesn't apply. But I think a lot of people might just lie to themselves in that situation as feigning heterosexuality is 'easier' socially. I think it is sad that some people get forced into this mentality, but probably unavoidable until the majority of our culture changes.