Gundam 00: A wakening of the Trailblazer - Expectations and Speculation

[wencong1356]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Dear god another one. We were establishing that the GN-XIV could beat the S2 Gundams, and the 00 Raiser is neither perfect nor invincible. Neither are Gundams in general. And the Flag was both piloted by a True Innovator and modified by Celestial Being, and defeated a GN-XIII, not a GN-XIV.

He defeated like....3 gn-xIII, or maybe even more. He threw smokescreens, then more or less fly around slashing the gn-xIIIs' gn drives

[M_Flores]

Well fair enough given the right and specific circumstances, GNX's can defeat Gundams (as they've always showed this potential all the way back in season 1 when GNX's first rolled out anyway). But as I said, these are given the right circumstances

Either way though, Gundams are still superior to them in that I don't see anything about the GN-X IVs that is superior to them other than numbers.
Otherwise, tech, abilities, even pilots, Gundams still have the advantage. The only advantage GNXs have against Gundams are obviously their numbers. That's it.

That out of the way, my whole gripe was that (although several circumstances and slight details here and there can prove it to be possible) we're talking about GNX's owning Gundams when they got owned by a Flag.

Fair enough you can throw little details like (oh, its the IV, not the III and oh, it was an Innovator piloting it, etc. etc.) that will definitely well prove the GNX can win under certain circumstances - I am just humoring the fact that some of us are talking about

GNXs owning Gundams... when GNXs got owned by a Flag

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

And then there was the argument that the movie Gundams arent that much better than the S2 Gundams because they were based on the same frame, which makes it seem like oh, GNX's are still better than the Gundams since they're just their S2 counterparts just with more weapons (which I do believe they are more than that).

Actually I think that was a mistranslation. They used the materials from the frame, not the exact same frame.

So are we saying here that the GN-XIV is that much more advanced that the III?

Why wouldn't they be?

My point was also, that if a Flag piloted by an Innovator can own those GNX's, I'm pretty sure that same Innovator wouldnt have a problem in a OO Raiser (even if its not perfect of invincible, which btw, I dont believe was ever mentioned that it was).

You should have started your argument with this.

Originally Posted by wencong1356

He defeated like....3 gn-xIII, or maybe even more. He threw smokescreens, then more or less fly around slashing the gn-xIIIs' gn drives

Taking out the GN Drives while the pilots are confused and can't see him is a damn effective tactic.

Either way though, Gundams are still superior to them in that I don't see anything about the GN-X IVs that is superior to them other than numbers.
Otherwise, tech, abilities, even pilots, Gundams still have the advantage. The only advantage GNXs have against Gundams are obviously their numbers. That's it.

Actually the Gundam pilots have always been pretty average, with technology being their primary advantage.

That out of the way, my whole gripe was that (although several circumstances and slight details here and there can prove it to be possible) we're talking about GNX's owning Gundams when they got owned by a Flag.

The GN-XIII getting owned by a Flag was also under the exact same types of circumstances your talking about.

GNXs owning Gundams... when GNXs got owned by a Flag

See above.

[LightningZERO]

I think that people are really underestimating Gundam Meisters' piloting skills. They might not THE best, but they are among the best, there are reasons for them to be chosen other than the commitment to Celestial Being's goal.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by LightningZERO

I think that people are really underestimating Gundam Meisters' piloting skills. They might not THE best, but they are among the best, there are reasons for them to be chosen other than the commitment to Celestial Being's goal.

This is true, but one of the biggest reasons they managed to get so far was due to CB's engineers and a few little things called "GN Drive" and "Trans-Am".

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Actually I think that was a mistranslation. They used the materials from the frame, not the exact same frame.

So do we agree that the movie Gundams (well, more Harute and Zabanya) are definately more than just 'tuned' versions of the S2 Gundams right?

Why wouldn't they be?

I should've expanded this further. I was trying to point out that if the GNX-IV was that much of a step up over the III, then one would presume the movie Gundams would've been that much of a step up over the S2 variants too. But then you could possible argue that the ESF had more resources, which I would have to agree would make sense, I wouldnt think they'd come up with something more advanced than the Gundams. I'm sure the movie Gundams are just as much of an update to the S2 Gundams just as GNX-IVs are to the III's.

You should have started your argument with this.

Yeah, although I initially wasnt aiming to argue something to this extent.

Taking out the GN Drives while the pilots are confused and can't see him is a damn effective tactic.

Can be done even better with the OO Raiser

Actually the Gundam pilots have always been pretty average, with technology being their primary advantage.

Not too sure about this one man. Before Setsuna innovated, and while Hallelujah wasnt around, then yeah sure they were pretty average and Lyle wasnt really anything special and Tiera was just as good as any Innovade. However, by movie timeline, I think the Meisters can compete with even the ESF aces since CB has an Innovator, two super soldiers, a regular Innovade with Veda access and well... Lyle with 2 Haros.

The GN-XIII getting owned by a Flag was also under the exact same types of circumstances your talking about.

Yes, this is true. Given the right circumstances, crazy shit like Flags owning GNX's and GNX's owning Gundams and perhaps even Flags owning Gundams (which actually sort of happened at the end of S1) can happen. But from raw performance, (and lets factor in plot armor as well) Gundams > GNXs.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Why are we suddenly over-speculating the power of the GNX-IV to the point that they can probably beat Gundams? I thought GNX-IV's were owned by a Flag?

No way they could stand a chance against OO Raiser (with the real Twin Drives anyway).

Yeah...I agree.

No way a GN-X, even the GN-X IV, can beat the Raiser. And it's just a one-sided curbstomping if it's the Qan.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

So do we agree that the movie Gundams (well, more Harute and Zabanya) are definately more than just 'tuned' versions of the S2 Gundams right?

I'll buy that argument until we get evidence to the contrary.

I should've expanded this further. I was trying to point out that if the GNX-IV was that much of a step up over the III, then one would presume the movie Gundams would've been that much of a step up over the S2 variants too. But then you could possible argue that the ESF had more resources, which I would have to agree would make sense, I wouldnt think they'd come up with something more advanced than the Gundams. I'm sure the movie Gundams are just as much of an update to the S2 Gundams just as GNX-IVs are to the III's.

Not necessarily. The GN-XIV incorporated a lot of the technology the Innovators used, whereas the only real advancement CB seems to have made are in terms of the Twin Drive.

Can be done even better with the OO Raiser

At this point the 00 Raiser has nothing but GN Condensers.

Not too sure about this one man. Before Setsuna innovated, and while Hallelujah wasnt around, then yeah sure they were pretty average and Lyle wasnt really anything special and Tiera was just as good as any Innovade. However, by movie timeline, I think the Meisters can compete with even the ESF aces since CB has an Innovator, two super soldiers, a regular Innovade with Veda access and well... Lyle with 2 Haros.

You win here.

Yes, this is true. Given the right circumstances, crazy shit like Flags owning GNX's and GNX's owning Gundams and perhaps even Flags owning Gundams (which actually sort of happened at the end of S1) can happen. But from raw performance, (and lets factor in plot armor as well) Gundams > GNXs.

*sigh* It wasn't "just a Flag", but yes: in terms of raw performance Gundams always outperform grunts unless special circumstances are in play.

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

No way a GN-X, even the GN-X IV, can beat the Raiser. And it's just a one-sided curbstomping if it's the Qan.

Again: At this point the 00R is running on condensers, and the 00Q was never even in contention.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

At this point the 00 Raiser has nothing but GN Condensers.

See, which Raiser are we talking about? Prime Raiser with a real Twin Drive, or the nerfed one with Condensers? Probably should clarify that.

The GN-X IV might be able to beat the nerfed non-TDS Raiser, sure. But against the iconic Raiser with TDS? No freaking way.

[Rising Dragon]

I think the real problem here is that a lot of people have this Gundam Wing-inspired misconception that Gundams are supposedly invincible and infallible, which just isn't the case, Strike Freedom aside. I do believe in M Flores' actual point, in that the 00-Raiser wouldn't be fodder for the GN-XIV stands, but I disagree with his further statements in that the GN-XIV is supposedly a piece a junk that can't wipe out a Flag, let alone a Gundam.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I think the real problem here is that a lot of people have this Gundam Wing-inspired misconception that Gundams are supposedly invincible and infallible, which just isn't the case, Strike Freedom aside. I do believe that M Flores actual point, in that the 00-Raiser wouldn't be fodder for the GN-XIV stands, but I disagree with his further statements in that the GN-XIV is supposedly a piece a junk that can't wipe out a Flag, let alone a Gundam.

Yeah, GN-X units are in no way weak. But I highly doubt in a fight that one could defeat the 00 Raiser if it was the old-school TDS version.

And technically, people aren't having the conception that a "Gundam" is infallible...since the Raiser is "beyond a Gundam" so it's not actually a Gundam, right? Right? No? Yeah.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Yeah, GN-X units are in no way weak. But I highly doubt in a fight that one could defeat the 00 Raiser if it was the old-school TDS version.

Actually the biggest advantage the 00R had was the Trans-Am, which the GN-XIV also have. I'm definitely not saying that a GN-XIV would win one-on-one (I guess of it was really lucky it could) but it wouldn't bee a total curb-stomp, and it would take far less of them to beat the 00R than any previous (mass-produced) unit.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I think the real problem here is that a lot of people have this Gundam Wing-inspired misconception that Gundams are supposedly invincible and infallible, which just isn't the case, Strike Freedom aside. I do believe in M Flores' actual point, in that the 00-Raiser wouldn't be fodder for the GN-XIV stands, but I disagree with his further statements in that the GN-XIV is supposedly a piece a junk that can't wipe out a Flag, let alone a Gundam.

First of all - ROFL

Anyway, it was not my intention to make the GNX-IV seem like a piece of crap.
I was just merely playing with the paradigm that "wow we're assuming that GNX's can now own Gundams... but wait - GNX's got owned by a Flag!? So Flags > Gundams?"

However though, as I said, the GNX's (any model in the range for that matter) main (and probably only) advantage over a Gundam would be numbers. Once again, raw performance wise, a Gundam is still superior.

Oh and just for the record, now that I'm saying this, GNX is of course, raw performance wise, superior to a Flag.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Actually the biggest advantage the 00R had was the Trans-Am, which the GN-XIV also have. I'm definitely not saying that a GN-XIV would win one-on-one (I guess of it was really lucky it could) but it wouldn't bee a total curb-stomp, and it would take far less of them to beat the 00R than any previous (mass-produced) unit.

I agree that it has the best chance out of "grunt" units. I don't know about TA being a big advantage for it against the Raiser though, since Raiser in TA went from zero to godlike in 3.5 seconds. Raiser in TA was capable of more craziness than any other suit in TA, save the Qan of course.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Anyway, it was not my intention to make the GNX-IV seem like a piece of crap.
I was just merely playing with the paradigm that "wow we're assuming that GNX's can now own Gundams... but wait - GNX's got owned by a Flag!? So Flags > Gundams?"

It's not a regular Flag! And them getting "owned by a Flag" is the result of several special circumstances. Have you taken into consideration that the GN-XIII pilots might not have been very good?

Oh and just for the record, now that I'm saying this, GNX is of course, raw performance wise, superior to a Flag.

For the last time: IT'S NOT A REGULAR FLAG!

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

It's not a regular Flag! And them getting "owned by a Flag" is the result of several special circumstances. Have you taken into consideration that the GN-XIII pilots might not have been very good?



For the last time: IT'S NOT A REGULAR FLAG!

Lol... I guess you didnt quite understand what I meant about 'playing with the paradigm'. I KNOW its not a normal Flag and I KNOW it was piloted by a character with god-mode on. The whole intention in the first place was just to take a big poke at the notion of GNXs owning Gundams but were defeated by a Flag. Not to actually make performance arguments because the whole intention was to be an ass. Mission complete.

Performance arguments though, is I want to do for this one :

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Actually the biggest advantage the 00R had was the Trans-Am, which the GN-XIV also have. I'm definitely not saying that a GN-XIV would win one-on-one (I guess of it was really lucky it could) but it wouldn't bee a total curb-stomp, and it would take far less of them to beat the 00R than any previous (mass-produced) unit.

Although I do agree that it would definitely take less GNX-IV's than III's to defeat a OO Raiser, I do disagree that Trans-Am is OO Raiser's biggest advantage over them.
In terms of weaponry, the OO Raiser (the original one, not the Condenser Type) can still prove to be more than formidable (although the GN Sword III was used as its main weapon, it held its own against a better equipped suit like the Reborns).

Due to the TDS' output, I'm pretty sure that it can power the GN Sword III's rifle mode to exceed any type of firepower that the GNX-IV's would produce. And melee range, I think the OO Raiser could still hold its own with the GNSIII and beam sabers against a few GNX-IV's.

Also, the pilot is another factor, but that needs no explaination.

In short, I do acknowledge that your definately not saying GNX-IVs can own the Raiser performance wise. I would however, like to express that OO Raiser has more advantages over it than just Trans-Am.

[bio9205]

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

I agree that it has the best chance out of "grunt" units. I don't know about TA being a big advantage for it against the Raiser though, since Raiser in TA went from zero to godlike in 3.5 seconds. Raiser in TA was capable of more craziness than any other suit in TA, save the Qan of course.

Lol'd.

I agree. TA 00R (and 00Q, that is) surpasses regular TA, Gundam or GN-XIV.

Also, please do not judge a MS's performance based on a single fight.

[jonli]

Not to mention that flag was piloted by Setsuna who is probably the single most powerful human being during that time.

Besides wouldn't Braves have a much better chance against a Gundam than GNXIV? Some might be giving the GNXIV too much credit right now. But EF's tech improvement might be one of the reasons why CB is less active now. They can no longer have a true direct confrontation against EF...because they would lose or suffer great losses. The Gundams in 00 were only really portrayed as untouchable in Season 1, even then some managed to get them with tactics. In Season 2, although they were strong, it was clear that EF is catching up to them tech-wise QUICKLY and that they were actually quite threatened. The only exception would probably be 00Raiser (but even he gets in trouble sometimes).

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Although I do agree that it would definitely take less GNX-IV's than III's to defeat a OO Raiser, I do disagree that Trans-Am is OO Raiser's biggest advantage over them.
In terms of weaponry, the OO Raiser (the original one, not the Condenser Type) can still prove to be more than formidable (although the GN Sword III was used as its main weapon, it held its own against a better equipped suit like the Reborns).

Due to the TDS' output, I'm pretty sure that it can power the GN Sword III's rifle mode to exceed any type of firepower that the GNX-IV's would produce. And melee range, I think the OO Raiser could still hold its own with the GNSIII and beam sabers against a few GNX-IV's.

Actually the 00R and even the 00Q are still limited by how many GN Particles their weapons can handle. Sure they'll be designed to handle a lot, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that they can just pour as many GN Particles into a particular use as they want.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Actually the 00R and even the 00Q are still limited by how many GN Particles their weapons can handle. Sure they'll be designed to handle a lot, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that they can just pour as many GN Particles into a particular use as they want.

Okay, I'll try not to make that mistake again

Although I'm sure they can pour a lot more GN particles than say, a group of GNX-IV's.