[Manga] Chapter 521 Discussion

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Naruto turning out to be the Yondaime's son was a steaming pile of ass that completely contradicted the theme of hard work and rising through the ranks. In fact, it was downright offensive.


......Is that supposed to be a copliment to his writing style?

that part of the plot is probably the most predictable. everyone knew he was the yondaime's son from the beginning. they looked alike. the yondaime's name was never revealed, naruto's parent's weren't revealed until later. the way he was taken care of, the way jiraiya treated him, etc. everything pointed to naruto being his son.

i once encountered an opinion regarding naruto's destiny. i believe the argument was about neji telling naruto that nobody can change their destiny. naruto answered that he could and he would and even promised that he would change the hyuuga clan for him. but the truth is naruto really was destined for greatness from the very start. so yeah, kishi is contradicting himself when he used "hardwork" as the theme for his story. sure, kishi made naruto a simple-minded idiot but he's still a jinchuuriki with great powers. i'd rather he made naruto powerless from the start, no kyuubi, no powerful parents, just a simple boy trying to make a difference.

nah, that's not a compliment. i've always believed that the true mark of a good author is his/her ability to create a story that none of the readers can predict. if he/she can create a world (even if it's a fictional one) that readers could believe to be real despite knowing that it's not. i've been reading fantasy books all my life and i've been trying to write one myself, the challenge starts in creating a fantasy world from the ground up. you need to create cultures, races, even languages. in all fairness to kishimoto he created a solid world with chakra and powerful ninja as its foundation. but as the years progressed that world started to become less and less solid when plot holes kept turning up. i'm sure you and i are not the only ones who noticed that. but when you're a fan, you tend to overlook those flaws and even come up with your own theories to answer the questions that kishi left dangling. that's why forums like these exist, i guess.

[herculan]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I find it interesting than neither of them asked about Sasuke. But then I remembered that they think he is dead. Sasuke didn't wake up until later.

This is not intirely correct. Haku intentionally hit sasuke in a non-leathal spot, so not to kill him. So its true that zabuza thought sasuke to be dead, but haku knew he was a live..

@Nobodyman9: Sorry kiddo, but you're kind of ruining my enjoyment for the manga.. You make negative comments on every litte part of the manga, simply to be able to rant. There is no depth in your arguments, they are purely based on how you would like the manga to be, but not based on what a proffesional manga or a good manga for other people would look like. and to direct the conversation to a more recent development.. I really loved kakashi confronting zabuza since it was the first real fight we got to see in the manga.. Its so nostalgic and awesome.. + I loved what kakashi said about naruto having become an admirable shinobi and having become a hero... Its the kind of smushy, kindness japanese storywriters are famous for. Just like Final Fantasy !!
Anyway, this is how I see it..

-You are making a fool of yourself..
-I don't mind negativity, but not in EVERY chapter and about EVERY litte detail.
-I don't mind negativity, but it needs to be based on more then how you would like to see the manga and on you simply trying to be a smart ass..
-You are talking to people on this forum as though your opinion is more important and more true then others..

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Could you please come back to me when you have a better argument than, "That's your opinion."

No, because it's a valid argument. All you give is your persective. You seem to think your arguments are legitimate but they're not. They're just your persepctive. That's what I'm pionting out.

Kakashi beats Zabuza. Called it.

Or he uses talk no jutsu.

Wonderful. How exactly does that address my point again? I never said you should find it interesting. I said others would. Again, this is entirely your perspective. Not a valid argument.

It's impossible for Kishi to give depth and care to the minor characters when he barely even acknowledges their existence.

He's quite clearly doing so now. Everyone has been given role to play and he's showing everyone. He's been giving them all depth the entire time. He just did it too well and you deluded yourself into thinking they were more important to the story than they actually were. In reality these minor characters are nothing more than mooks. Mooks with a damn sight more depth than most other writers would care to give. Isn't the last battle a perfect example? The last fight that everyone at first believed would simply be fodder bashing, turned out to reveal a flaw in the Zombie jutsu that will obviously prove to be important, and, against all expectations, a victory for the good guys.

Does he like them for any other reason beyond them just being the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist?

Yes. You're addressing those reasons below...

Yeah...what is the overall plot again?

Oh you know. The War.

And an extremely stupid flaw it was. A stupid flaw to a stupidly broken ninjutsu.

And? This is an entirely different point altogether. The fact still remains that the previous fight proved relevant to the overall plot. Don't try and change the subject.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

that part of the plot is probably the most predictable. everyone knew he was the yondaime's son from the beginning. they looked alike. the yondaime's name was never revealed, naruto's parent's weren't revealed until later. the way he was taken care of, the way jiraiya treated him, etc. everything pointed to naruto being his son.

I remember when people used to joke about the idea of Naruto being Yondaime's son. *sigh*

Originally Posted by herculan

@Nobodyman9: Sorry kiddo, but you're kind of ruining my enjoyment for the manga..

Why, because I'm bringing to light legitimate flaws in the series? I just can't believe I can ruin someone's enjoyment of this manga more than Kishi can.

You make negative comments on every litte part of the manga, simply to be able to rant. There is no depth in your arguments, they are purely based on how you would like the manga to be, but not based on what a proffesional manga or a good manga for other people would look like.

You're right, my arguments are based on what I want Naruto be. And what I want Naruto to be is a good fucking manga, just like it used to be about 10 years ago. But then again, it's far too late for that now.

and to direct the conversation to a more recent development.. I really loved kakashi confronting zabuza since it was the first real fight we got to see in the manga.. Its so nostalgic and awesome.. + I loved what kakashi said about naruto having become an admirable shinobi and having become a hero...

You know what, I'll be generous. I'll go ahead and say that the Kakashi/Zabuza fight/confrontation could end up being fairly interesting, and after this post I'll leave it alone. The way Kishi handled their interaction this chapter wasn't terrible, but this whole zombie thing is fundamentally stupid anyway.

Its the kind of smushy, kindness japanese storywriters are famous for. Just like Final Fantasy !!

Way to fucking generalize, idiot. Japan has shit-ton of diverse writers, writing for different mediums with a shit-ton of different styles. They are not all "kind" and "smushy." Some can be downright nasty, on the contrary.

Anyway, this is how I see it..

-You are making a fool of yourself..
-I don't mind negativity, but not in EVERY chapter and about EVERY litte detail.

This chapter had:

-More talk about Edo Tensei hax
-A naked white clone volcano that seems to be symbolic of ejaculation
-Generic attacks like "Bug Ball!" and "Front Slash!"
-Setup for a pointless rematch between Zabuza and Kakashi
-A NAKED WHITE CLONE VOLCANO!

Yeah, they are all little details in the long-run, but they're all part of a bigger picture of how little a shit Kishi gives about this series.

-I don't mind negativity, but it needs to be based on more then how you would like to see the manga and on you simply trying to be a smart ass..
-You are talking to people on this forum as though your opinion is more important and more true then others..

Again, I only want the manga to be good. I don't care how Kishi does it, but the way he's doing it now ain't fucking good. It hasn't been good for years. The main reason I post here is becaues it baffles me how you people can enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Haak

No, because it's a valid argument. All you give is your persective. You seem to think your arguments are legitimate but they're not. They're just your persepctive. That's what I'm piunting out.

"Waahh Wahh. Your opinion. Waahh Wahh."

Again, your persepctive. Not a legitimate argument.

My "perspective" is that Kakashi will defeat a guy who he beat three years ago, especially since he's had three years more experience and that it will be a wholly uninteresting experience. But hey, let's wait for next week.

He's quite clearly doing so now. Everyone has been given role to play and he's showing everyone.

Too little, too late. Stuff like he's showing now would've been great in the Pain arc.

I don't see what would be so wrong with that. Ask him.

Liking someone just because they're part of an organization is just stupid. Especially if they're part of an organization that is completely inconsequential to the plot.

Oh you know. The War.

Oh, I thought it was about Naruto and Sasuke embracing their love for each other. But yeah, I guess there's that too.

......Why did they declare war against one guy anyway? Did they know he was gonna have an army of naked clones?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I "Waahh Wahh. Your opinion. Waahh Wahh."

My "perspective" is that Kakashi will defeat a guy who he beat three years ago, especially since he's had three years more experience and that it will be a wholly uninteresting experience. But hey, let's wait for next week.

If you can't make a proper argument then don't bother. Again, you haven't actually been making a legitimate argument.

Too little, too late. Stuff like he's showing now would've been great in the Pain arc.

Again, your perspective and not a legitimate argument. The Pain arc wasn't even that long ago in the story and he's been giving them all depth the entire time. He just did it too well and you deluded yourself into thinking they were more important to the story than they actually were. In reality these minor characters are nothing more than mooks. Mooks with a damn sight more depth than most other writers would care to give.

And if you're really that butthurt, then if it means anything to you he did want to give Tsunade a fight with Pain but his editor wouldn't let him.

Liking someone just because they're part of an organization is just stupid. Especially if they're part of an organization that is completely inconsequential to the plot.

Just like other minor characters? Again, your prespective. Not a valid argument.

Oh, I thought it was about Naruto and Sasuke embracing their love for each other. But yeah, I guess there's that too.

It seems like you're reduced to making smartarse comments now. Just acknowledge that you're wrong, already. Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is half the plotline but yes the war is a significant storyline that Zabuza can contribute to. End of.

......Why did they declare war against one guy anyway? Did they know he was gonna have an army of naked clones?

Tobi was the one that declared war. They just decided it would be a smart idea to take him seriously because, you know...they knew he was taking all the tailed beasts and was an incredibly serious threat.

And again, this is entirely irrelevant to the original point.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I remember when people used to joke about the idea of Naruto being Yondaime's son. *sigh*

don't know about you or the others but i've always known he was the yondaime's son. i wasn't surprised at all when it was finally revealed that he really was. there were even talks about him being the yondaime's clone or the yondaime reborn. none of those made sense to me. i'm glad kishi made him the yondaime's son instead of some clone just for shock value. some writers do that to supposedly make their stories less predictable but most of the time those shocking twists backfire.

[Tsuyoshi]

Yeah, I think the fact that Naruto was Yondaime's son was a given, especially after finding out what he looks like. You could tell Naruto and Yondaime were related just by looking at Yondaime's portrait on Sandaime's wall (remember the chuunin exam arc). It was no big surprise to me at all. There was also the fact that Yondaime chose Naruto of all people to be the one to carry Kyuubi's chakra.

As for Zabusa, along with all the other minor characters appearing in the war, I don't think anyone should be really surprised to see them come around thanks to Edo Tensei. In fact, it was a given that they would, and I strongly believe they do have purpose. Just look at Kankuro and Sasori. In the beginning of Shippuuden, Kankuro was defeated in an instant by Sasori. During their rematch, we could see that Kankuro matured greatly ever since their first match, which eventually resulted in Sasori leaving his legacy on to Kankuro. I imagine the confrontations to follow will not neccessarily give the characters a chance to develop, but a chance to see how they've already developed over the course of the series, be it in terms of skill or character. Haku's conversation with Kakashi hinted at that as he was genuinely curious to see how Naruto had grown since they fought.

[RexAlmaterra]

it seems mr nobody9 doesnt enjoy the manga anymore hehe, oh well, maybe the story of naruto does not entertain him anymore because of the flaws he was mentioning or maybe he's just pushing his ideas on what should happen in the manga. I guess if he is not enjoying anymore he should drop the manga now i guess hahaha xD

--------------------------------------------------
principle of enjoyment: "STAY if you're happy and "LEAVE" if not"

[herculan]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

You know what, I'll be generous. I'll go ahead and say that the Kakashi/Zabuza fight/confrontation could end up being fairly interesting, and after this post I'll leave it alone. The way Kishi handled their interaction this chapter wasn't terrible, but this whole zombie thing is fundamentally stupid anyway.

Stop making it so obvious that you are only making negative comments to get some attention from everyone.. I don't care if you agree with me, I don't care if you are 'generous', you continue to act as though people care about your rant... Dude, it pisses me off that you are acting as if your opinion counts more then my own.. being generous.. the cockyness needed to say something like that... AAARGH..

Stop using fancy words, stop trying to behave grown-up because you are obviously still just a child, stop trying to sound proffesional because you are not. and Stop acting like a know-all.. I like the manga for all the things you hate it.. The way kishi writes his manga is appealing to me.. The one and only thing that bothers me about naruto right now is that I prefered kishimoto's old drawing style.. (pre-time skip)

If I would 've been an admin I would 've given you a final warning right now.. Simply try to be a tad more subtle when telling your 'opinion'.. I'm putting that between '' because as mentioned before, you are partially only acting the way you are for the attention.
but luckily for you I'm no admin and am not in the place to tell you this... *sigh*

[Poetic Justice]

So this is what Kishi meant when he said this would be Kakashi's year, A fight with Zabuza, Part deux. Brilliant!

Rock on kishi.

[LadyKikyo91]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I remember when people used to joke about the idea of Naruto being Yondaime's son. *sigh*


Why, because I'm bringing to light legitimate flaws in the series? I just can't believe I can ruin someone's enjoyment of this manga more than Kishi can.


You're right, my arguments are based on what I want Naruto be. And what I want Naruto to be is a good fucking manga, just like it used to be about 10 years ago. But then again, it's far too late for that now.


You know what, I'll be generous. I'll go ahead and say that the Kakashi/Zabuza fight/confrontation could end up being fairly interesting, and after this post I'll leave it alone. The way Kishi handled their interaction this chapter wasn't terrible, but this whole zombie thing is fundamentally stupid anyway.


Way to fucking generalize, idiot. Japan has shit-ton of diverse writers, writing for different mediums with a shit-ton of different styles. They are not all "kind" and "smushy." Some can be downright nasty, on the contrary.


This chapter had:

-More talk about Edo Tensei hax
-A naked white clone volcano that seems to be symbolic of ejaculation
-Generic attacks like "Bug Ball!" and "Front Slash!"
-Setup for a pointless rematch between Zabuza and Kakashi
-A NAKED WHITE CLONE VOLCANO!

Yeah, they are all little details in the long-run, but they're all part of a bigger picture of how little a shit Kishi gives about this series.

Again, I only want the manga to be good. I don't care how Kishi does it, but the way he's doing it now ain't fucking good. It hasn't been good for years. The main reason I post here is becaues it baffles me how you people can enjoy it.


"Waahh Wahh. Your opinion. Waahh Wahh."


My "perspective" is that Kakashi will defeat a guy who he beat three years ago, especially since he's had three years more experience and that it will be a wholly uninteresting experience. But hey, let's wait for next week.


Too little, too late. Stuff like he's showing now would've been great in the Pain arc.


Liking someone just because they're part of an organization is just stupid. Especially if they're part of an organization that is completely inconsequential to the plot.


Oh, I thought it was about Naruto and Sasuke embracing their love for each other. But yeah, I guess there's that too.

......Why did they declare war against one guy anyway? Did they know he was gonna have an army of naked clones?

Now Now. Nobodyman there is no reason to get so testy ok. We all know that you are pointing out very legitimate flaws in the series. We also all know that Kishimoto is not a good writer ok.

With that being said if you believe this manga is so horrible then why are you still reading it. It kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it.Ifyou think Kishimoto is doing such a bad job then go read something else. If you keep reading the manga even though you hate it, that is still giving Kishimoto sales thus sending him the wrong message.

Also the point of an persuasive argument is to win the person to your side of the argument. But with that being said there is something called common decency with common decency comes the prospect that all people have different opinions and are entitled to believe something different from yourself. Also with this entitlement comes that fact that even though they believe differently than you their belief is no less legitimate than yours. Meaning just because some people still believe Kishimoto is a good writer doesn't mean that person has an opinion inferior to yours it just means your tastes are different. Some people love cliches some don't. Realizing that people have different tastes and are going to do something or like something even though you hate it and see no point in it is not called giving up it is called accepting that everyone is different and not trying force your viewpoint on them. Example: Me and twilight. I hate it everyone else likes it. So instead of telling them how much I hate it everyone opportunity I get I just don't watch it. Why? Because even though I might hate twilight I understand that there are people that love it and so instead of going on every discussion board and bashing it every chance I get instead I avoid the whole franchise entirely. Which is what I suggest you do here. Even though you may hate this manga/anime you have to realize that there are people who still like it and when you go on bashing it every chance you get you ruin it for the people who like it which is unfair.

Another thing. Please stop calling people idiots. Its rather mean, in bad spirit, and also makes you seem like a bully.

One more thing: You are presenting perspectives. You perspective only becomes a valid argument when you provide evidence to back it up. An argument isn't just a general statement like, "The whole Naruto vs. Pein fight was terrible."

Otherwise, I usually agree with what you say.

[janipani]

I have to agree with Nobodyman9... Naruto has lost its edge.

[Lightningtiger13]

Nobodyman9 if you have so much dislike for the manga why is it you continue to read it and place your obviously negative (weather it is true or not) opinion on everyone who obviously does not agree with you. Why don't you just go write about something that you enjoy?

[james0246]

Okay, please cease and desist with all the indirect questions to Nobodyman. Please continue such discussion in a PM/VM, just not here.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Lightningtiger13

Nobodyman9 if you have so much dislike for the manga why is it you continue to read it and place your obviously negative (weather it is true or not) opinion on everyone who obviously does not agree with you. Why don't you just go write about something that you enjoy?

Just in case you never experienced this: learn about the troll
If you argue with him you lose automatically, even if you are 100% right.

BTW i'm waiting to see the real terror of war finally. Until now it's all nice and easy for the alliance, there's no suspense yet, probably that's why many think that these are somewhat boring chapters despite there have been so many interesting revelations (about Edo Tensei and other things).

[Lightningtiger13]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Just in case you never experienced this: learn about the troll
If you argue with him you lose automatically, even if you are 100% right.

BTW i'm waiting to see the real terror of war finally. Until now it's all nice and easy for the alliance, there's no suspense yet, probably that's why many think that these are somewhat boring chapters despite there have been so many interesting revelations (about Edo Tensei and other things).

Well I know I just got an issue with Ignorant people lol.

I do not know why people would think that all these chapters are boring it is battle. We all act as if we have never read a battle in manga before. I do not see to many differences between the battles and what not of Naruto, Bleach, (past manga such as) DBZ, and Yuyu hell even Kenichi is the same way; every single one of these manga witch I have actually read have all suffered the same feeling under the fact that they either are passing through a period of to much bsing or to many fights or fights that seem simply drawn out.

If anyone suffers from the feeling of one chapter at a time fighting you need to just not read for like a month then read 4 or so chapters at a time a technique I learned while reading Hajime no Ippo some of the fights in that manga are like 40 chapters long and half the chapters are just him getting punched or trying to hit his opponent and tend to repeat themselves and it can get annoying.

[Ulquiorra]

I think what fans are reacting to is the lack of the back and forth we are use to with Shonen. So far it has been very one sided toward the Alliance. Even when Akatsuki momentarily gained the upper hand against the Ambush Division with Haku, Kakashi's division was there with perfect timing to bail them out and prevent any causalities.

This has nothing to do with satisfying blood-lust. It simply is insulting and impractical for numerous ninja to fight and have almost no casualties. I expect the Zetsu to rebound against Div 2 and either unleash their spores or slaughter a ton of fodder. We where told things were now going to get serious. So I expect the opposite of what we saw with Sasori, Shin, and Deidara.

Also watch Division 5. Notice how all the popular characters moved from that division to help with Div 2. They are left with Mifune and...Ino. If Kishi wants Itachi, Nagato, or some of the other zombies to rape a division, then they'll head there instead of Div 4 with two big guns in Gaara and Shika.

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

So this is what Kishi meant when he said this would be Kakashi's year, A fight with Zabuza, Part deux. Brilliant!

Rock on kishi.

2010 was suppose to be the Year of Kakashi. It didn't happen. Now there is not going to be any year of Kakashi with the war. 2011 is the Year of Everyone.

This teaches us a few things. Take anything Kishi says at the Jump Festa with a grain of salt. Remember, his editors control the story and make him change certain things. He might have intended to write about Kakashi in 2010, but things changed.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

2010 was suppose to be the Year of Kakashi. It didn't happen. Now there is not going to be any year of Kakashi with the war. 2011 is the Year of Everyone.

This teaches us a few things. Take anything Kishi says at the Jump Festa with a grain of salt. Remember, his editors control the story and make him change certain things. He might have intended to write about Kakashi in 2010, but things changed.

which part? that he was supposed to become hokage? it's a shame that tsunade had to wake up just when he was about to be proclaimed hokage. how inconvenient was that?

[Nintendo]

yeah, im still upset about the year of kakashi. I wanted to know about his powers more, about how he got this powerful.

but always 2011....2012....because from all of this, I know that naruto is far from finishing.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

This teaches us a few things. Take anything Kishi says at the Jump Festa with a grain of salt. Remember, his editors control the story and make him change certain things. He might have intended to write about Kakashi in 2010, but things changed.

Knowing Kishimoto, he'll say, in the next Jump Festa in a week or so, that 2011 will be the year of Naruto, only to focus on Sakura all year...and strangely enough everyone will appreciate the change of pace.