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Link #3341 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
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Link #3342 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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After he let Sakura live the second time you cannot convincingly say that Shirou would have killed Sakura to prevent Avenger from being released. He knew her existence threatened the world he couldn't think of a single way to stop it back then and he still did not kill her. What do you thinks gonna happen when presented with the choice again? He already has hundreds of lives on his conscience what's why would he care about more. Especially given his never give up attitude and his vow to save her. Just because Avenger is released does not mean neccessarily mean that Sakura was going to die . Shirou will never ever kill Sakura he sacrificed his mother fucking ideal for her and his life. He's not gonna say "Sakura is worth 10000 lives but 6 billion is too much" That's going back to the ideal he tossed out in the garbage. He completely threw away quantifing lives so to him the amount does not matter. He was going to continue chasing the impossible. From the very begining he knew he was risking lives by chasing the impossible and other the course of HF the magnitude of the amount kept on increasing but he never stopped. If someone was willing to sacrifice hundreds for an impossible dream do you not think that they would be willing to sacrifice more? |
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Link #3343 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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I can accept, perhaps, that there is some level of moral ambiguity there, but to claim that he just doesn't care about the people who died, and to compare him to a mass-murderer or rapist is just plain ridiculous. His only "crime" is to not murder an entirely innocent girl who was lying in her bed totally helpless, and to believe that it was perhaps possible to save her and everyone else. He never allowed her to kill anyone, and indeed he did everything short of killing her to prevent it. And, had he actually seen her doing it, he'd have killed her, without a doubt. Similarly, his goal in the final battle of HF is to make sure that she doesn't release Angra Mainyu and to save her. He was certainly not intending to allow Angra Mainyu to be released, and he killed himself for that purpose even though Sakura would have been safe. If his goal had solely been to save her, he'd not have given Rin the Jewelled Sword to kill her with, and he wouldn't have "given up" on her in the final Bad End (we don't know what he'd have done from there, because he had no way to fight her). Quote:
At the point he made the decision not to kill her the second time, she was not actually doing anything. If he'd come across her whilst she was "feeding", the outcome would almost certainly have been different, because he's not going to stand there and watch her eating people. Also, he doesn't have the deaths of 100 people on his conscience, because he made every effort to prevent those deaths. Just like he would make every effort to prevent any further deaths. Quote:
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Link #3344 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 38
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The anime had so much potential. It is so popular and highly rated... could you imagine if they had done it right? ![]()
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Link #3345 | |
"Hey, Isaac?"
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Link #3346 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 38
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Perhaps Shirou's projection in the beginning was a little different or Avalon can do both. Cause the description of Avalon itself mentions nothing about reflection nor does it give the impression that it would reflect it.
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Link #3347 |
"Hey, Isaac?"
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It's a pretty vague scene, in the game; Shirou is very out of it from having been mostly chopped in half, and there's a lot of screen-filling blinding things going on. But something stops one of Gil's attacks and tears his armor up, Shirou notes that Saber 'used something he made to defeat the enemy' like she had against Berserker, and it's pretty clear that Avalon is the thing he projected there. So... well...
*shrug* Nasu has plotholes? |
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Link #3348 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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Link #3349 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
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None of the descriptions of Avalon imply it can be used as a weapon, or even deflect anything. It just isolates Saber completely from the world so nothing can harm her, and it's also impossible for her to attack while it's active.
I'll check the scene in Fate again, however how I remember it was Gilgamesh let them go. Edit: Hmm.. I don't really know. It doesn't say it deflected anything, but something did end up hurting Gilgamesh. I don't think they actually activated Avalon as Saber did against Gilgamesh in the final battle, rather just used it as a shield. So what Cherry Lover said is probably right. Last edited by LostHanyou; 2010-12-21 at 21:51. |
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Link #3354 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Anyway lol at the fact your saying he's not guilty at the very least he's guilty for mentally blocking the fact that Sakura and the creature were one and the same. Then you have the fact he didn't secure her enough nor put enough surveilance on her. I mean he left freaking Rider in charge of her own servant who has little morality who let her walk right out without telling anyone. Then you have the fact he prevented her from being uncomfortable in anyway e.g temporary paralysis. Seriously hundreds of peoples lives are at stake and your worried at sakura being uncomfortable? It's not torture and I'm pretty sure she'd consent to it so what exactly is wrong with it. Shirou also kept her alive when he knew full well that she dangerous. If your going to do that you sure as hell be willing to take responsibility for those that she killed. |
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Link #3355 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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For the sake of everyone's sanity, fine, i'll stop. I agree with you mostly anyway, except for you're assesment on other characters and whether Shirou actually thought it through properly, when he refused to see the connection between Sakura and the murders and the second time he considered killing her. And no, I don't think judging someone's actions is the same as judging them.
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Last edited by Haak; 2010-12-22 at 08:40. |
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Link #3356 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Who's Sakura hating though? Following through the method your ideology prioritizes isn't 'hate'. It's a matter of how a person does thing, and personally nothing wrong with that.
HF is different from the other routes because it touches a sensitive subject for people, in which case the ideology of few for the many vs many for the few. Whether or not the antagonists' words were truthful or not is irrelevant, because Sakura had already started murdering. That is a fact, and no implications for anyone can change that. I personally come irate at the idea of considering HF a 'healthy' route, but I guess I'll end here too. Of course I want the last words so it makes Haak look less of an ass, since I also largely instigated this discussion. |
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Link #3357 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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Refusing to kill an innocent girl (no matter what the circumstances) is not in any way the same as commiting rape or murder, and anyone who claims it is is an idiot, pure and simple. Shirou did not harm anyone, and he had no intention of allowing anyone to be harmed. To compare that to rape or mass-murder is seriously trivialising rape and mass-murder. Quote:
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Plus, you're forgetting that Rider was there to prevent Zouken (or anyone else) from trying to take her, not to prevent her "escaping", because there was no sign of that being likely. Quote:
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There is nothing Shirou could have done to stop the actions of the shadow, because between her magic and Rider's abilities Sakura could escape her bonds anyway, and to tie her up like that would just make her mental state worse, because it comes across as "I don't care about you". Plus, it was quite possible that those would be the last few days of her life, the least he can do for her is to make her comfortable and happy during them. Quote:
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As much as you might want to define the debate in terms that make it seem like you're obviously right (by claiming that it's a choice between sacrificing the few for the many and sacrificing the many for the few, which is clearly a decision which any "good" person would decide in favour of the many), it's not that simple and I'm not going to let you try to pigeonhole all us Sakura supporters into the category of "selfish bastards who think that people should look after themselves and their loved ones and say 'fuck you' to everyone else", because we're not. Quote:
I will accept that, based on what we know now, killing Sakura in the church was probably the "more moral" choice (although I do not agree that refusing to do so is outright evil, because to me refusing to kill someone is never an evil act, no matter how inevitable it is that they will end up killing others), but we have the benefit of hindsight and of complete information (without the ability to change things). Based on what Shirou knew, there was a possibility of helping Sakura (which is undoubtedly a good thing, if it and be done) and, if she did go insane, she could be stopped before she killed anyone. Therefore, based on the information that he had, the correct choice was to give Sakura a chance (which is something she's never had before...) and try to find a way to help her without letting others die. True, in the end it never worked that way, but nothing Shirou could have done would have reduced the death toll (even going MoS wouldn't have, IMO, because I think he'd be less likely to win), and even though refusing to kill her the second time is a bit more morally ambiguous, he surely knew Sakura well enough to know that she wouldn't allow herself to go around eating people now that she was aware of the true nature of the shadow. Quote:
Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-12-22 at 09:11. |
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Link #3358 |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 38
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Didn't Saber put Excalibur in Avalon? Did she do that in the VN? Maybe that's where the difference lies. But if that's the case, my problem comes with how Saber is able to do that all of a sudden after being almost annihilated by Ea.
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Link #3359 |
"Hey, Isaac?"
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The VN scene is a lot more ambiguous, but Saber does do something. It's not made clear what, but Shirou definitely says that 'like with Berserker, Saber used something I made to defeat the enemy', or something to that effect. So maybe Shirou projected Avalon, and Saber was able to partially activate it? Not enough to give the full protection, but enough to make a barrier to push back Gil's attack or something.
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Link #3360 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 38
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I need a new job. Better yet, I need to win the lotto and retire. Yes, the lotto. People ask me what would I do with all my free time. I tell them "I'd find something to do, trust me" since I can't say I'd watch anime, read manga, and play visual novels. ![]()
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Tags |
fate/stay night, visual novel |
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