[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Moogleking]

So, thinking about episode 2 made me think of something interesting.
Does Yasu ever do anything with Maria? We know that Rosa initially plays Beatrice to Maria. I can't think of any good reason for Yasu to start doing this instead of Rosa.

EDIT: Well, I guess we are shown Maria adding characters to Yasu's world. But does Rosa know about this? Surely she would suspect someone else stealing her role as Maria's Beatrice.

[Used Can]

When did Rosa play Beatrice for Maria?

[Moogleking]

It was heavily implied at one point in episode 7. I can skip through and see if I can look it up.

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

So, thinking about episode 2 made me think of something interesting.
Does Yasu ever do anything with Maria? We know that Rosa initially plays Beatrice to Maria. I can't think of any good reason for Yasu to start doing this instead of Rosa.

What? I've never heard of Rosa being the one to play Beatrice. If that was the case, Rosa shouldn't get so upset when Maria starts up with the occult. Ep 7 says that Yasu started the role of Beatrice for herself and then played with Maria so someone wound acknowledge her.

[AuraTwilight]

Go for it, it would be much appreciated. But if there's no culprit, can you still give a logically presented version of generally what happens in the arcs, without resorting the just 'then people killed each other', or some sort?

Of course. That's why I refuse to believe in a real culprit in the first place.

Also, WTF are you talking about? Rosa never played Beatrice with Maria and the very idea pisses her off. It was always Yasu.

You're on crack.

[Moogleking]

Hmm, I could have sworn there was some scene that implied Rosa did that at some point to try to connect with her daughter.
Nevermind, just ignore that. I'll look through to see if I can find what in the world I was thinking.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

So, thinking about episode 2 made me think of something interesting.
Does Yasu ever do anything with Maria? We know that Rosa initially plays Beatrice to Maria. I can't think of any good reason for Yasu to start doing this instead of Rosa.

EDIT: Well, I guess we are shown Maria adding characters to Yasu's world. But does Rosa know about this? Surely she would suspect someone else stealing her role as Maria's Beatrice.

I'm pretty sure that Yasu is the one who has been seeing Maria as Beatrice for the last couple of years before 1986. It seems all but outright stated that Maria is Yasu's friend, what with Mariage Sorciere and what not.

I believe that Maria might be in on the 'ceremony' to the extent that Beatrice has debriefed Maria on the magical ritual she plans to undertake. Translated to plain english, from Maria's perspective, she knew people where going to start being sacrificed, but she believes in Beatrice enough that they really would revive.

Whether or not Yasu actually interacts with Maria directly seems to depend on the particular arc. Though it seems certain that Yasu does interact with Maria as Kanon or Shannon, but Maria doesn't perceive them as anyone particularly special until 'Beatrice' possesses them and Maria gets to see her friend.

With this line of thought, I don't remember the particular details, but in EP4 I remember that Beatrice was going to test Maria but later switched it to Battler. Assuming things probably went very wrong in EP4, what would Yasu do with Maria? All I can really think is that, knowing many people have actually been killed and that Maria will eventually be killed by whoever the murderer is that time around, maybe Yasu was going to kill Maria out of mercy, doing it from an angle that wouldn't shatter her ideas of magic and the golden land?

[AuraTwilight]

Alright. So I'll start with EP1 first, and if that satisfies everyone, I'll go on to EP2.

The culprit in the context of the fictional story is most definitely YasuShkanontrice. Although in the reality of Rokkenjima Prime, this was a fake murder mystery game (and possibly still is), there's no need to fake deaths in a fictional mystery story, so Yasu upped it a notch so she can say stuff like "These characters are dead, they won't get back up again and make a muck of things". However, in the real world, Yasu does not have the capability for murder. The motive is for Battler to decipher and figure out the puzzle that is her heart. It's sort of a "meta-motive", and that's why the Meta-World exists.

First Twilight: Yasu did it. Everyone is lead to believe this is a fictional game (like it would be in Prime) but Yasu knifed the fuckers or something and the actors, like Hideyoshi, didn't notice. Hideyoshi goes along with the lie.

Second Twilight: Kanon cut the chain, killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and lied about the chain.

Fourth Twilight: Too easy. Kinzo was already dead, burn the corpse, yadda yadda.

Fifth Twilight: Kanon staked himself in a non-vital area, pretended to die with Nanjo-The-Scripted-Actor. When Jessica is alone with them, she is told about the plot and is complicit with it, thinking it's faked (Maybe it is. It's really not in the slightest bit relevant; if the red says they're dead, sure, whatever.)

The Letter: GENSAWAJO or Maria did it. Either of the four, really.

Last batch o' Twilights. Yasu came in and shot the fuckers, then left. The Closed Room is an illusion.

Natsuhi is shot by Yasu.

[Moogleking]

Yea, I don't know what I was smoking there. I'm going to sleep.

[Gar Logan78]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Alright. So I'll start with EP1 first, and if that satisfies everyone, I'll go on to EP2.

The culprit in the context of the fictional story is most definitely YasuShkanontrice. Although in the reality of Rokkenjima Prime, this was a fake murder mystery game (and possibly still is), there's no need to fake deaths in a fictional mystery story, so Yasu upped it a notch so she can say stuff like "These characters are dead, they won't get back up again and make a muck of things". However, in the real world, Yasu does not have the capability for murder. The motive is for Battler to decipher and figure out the puzzle that is her heart. It's sort of a "meta-motive", and that's why the Meta-World exists.

First Twilight: Yasu did it. Everyone is lead to believe this is a fictional game (like it would be in Prime) but Yasu knifed the fuckers or something and the actors, like Hideyoshi, didn't notice. Hideyoshi goes along with the lie.

Second Twilight: Kanon cut the chain, killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and lied about the chain.

Fourth Twilight: Too easy. Kinzo was already dead, burn the corpse, yadda yadda.

Fifth Twilight: Kanon staked himself in a non-vital area, pretended to die with Nanjo-The-Scripted-Actor. When Jessica is alone with them, she is told about the plot and is complicit with it, thinking it's faked (Maybe it is. It's really not in the slightest bit relevant; if the red says they're dead, sure, whatever.)

The Letter: GENSAWAJO or Maria did it. Either of the four, really.

Last batch o' Twilights. Yasu came in and shot the fuckers, then left. The Closed Room is an illusion.

Natsuhi is shot by Yasu.

That sounds pretty good. But I thought you said that Yasu wasn't capable of murder...? Or is it OK because this is just a game and even if Yasu is killing he/she isn't "really" killing?

[Moogleking]

Well, I saw that post, so now I have to read it and respond.

So, that certainly makes sense. It is interesting how meta-Yasu doesn't want to kill anyone, but in-game Yasu is all about the murder. A sneaky way to allow Yasu to kill everybody, but not actually kill anybody.

[Arkwright]

I remember what's being referred to. This is while Will was theatergoing with Maria. Rosa and Maria are on an off-season visit to Rokkenjima. Rosa says she's going off to talk to Krauss, and Maria goes to play in the garden when suddenly Beatrice shows up and talks. Some of the things Beatrice says do sound like hints for Rosa-Beatrice. My memory of the details is sketchy, but the main one that sticks out in my memory was that Beatrice ended the conversation by telling Maria that if she always washed her hands and something else I forget, she'd be able to see more magic the next time she came back to Rokkenjima. However it was worded, it was easy to interpret it as a parent coaxing a kid with a witch hobby to behave at home, like "be nice and Santa will bring you presents."

And then Maria told Wright that she'd seen Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, and Genji with Beatrice, which makes some people think that one of the other servants besides Shannon was playing Beatrice on those occasions. I get the impression that people forget that Natsuhi is also always on the island at the time and actually has some motive for and hints toward playing Beatrice. It could also be Rosa, which is what I thought instantly the first time I read that part of Ep7, and I think it would fit well with the author's approach of trying not to demonize the characters. But I changed my mind to Natsuhi later along with the Jessica section of the Wright interviews.

The Yasu section later threw me off somewhat, but it's worth noting that there's no guarantee Beatrice is always the same person. Could easily have started with one of the parents and switched to Shannon. We already know Natsuhi can have the servants run a show for Kinzo, why not Beatrice?

[AuraTwilight]

That sounds pretty good. But I thought you said that Yasu wasn't capable of murder...? Or is it OK because this is just a game and even if Yasu is killing he/she isn't "really" killing?

It's a fictional story. A fictional story where "Yasu" does not exist, and she lets Shannon and Kanon do it. In the real world, she wouldn't have the nerve or motive. But even the meekest person can Press A to cap a video game character with bullets, right?

And the motive is to create a perfect mystery for Battler, and make things click in his head so that he remembers her.

Also, seeing Beatrice with Shannon doesn't mean Maria saw two different people, you guys. Maria sees Beatrice in her own head when she's home alone with her mother.

Shannon: Oh..oh look! Maria, Beatrice is here!

Maria: uu, she is?

Shannon: Yea, lemme listen...what's that? Beatrice says she's weak today, so close your eyes and see with your heart. Draw her with the eyes of your mind.

Maria closes her eyes, and then Shannon goes, "Ooooh, Maria, blah blah blah." "Beatrice-sama, how are you?" "Doin' fine, Shannon."

[Arkwright]

She doesn't tell Wright that she saw any of the imaginary witch friends. Will can probably confirm that she saw Shannon there with Beatrice if he wants to. It ignores those parent-ish hints. It ignores Natsuhi's relationship with Beatrice in episode 5 and references to Kinzo in other episodes. It could be as you say, but I think it's easier to explain otherwise.

As for that Ep1, I'd hesitate to place all the motive in the meta-world. Why assume Beatrice gave Battler mysteries with a robotic killer? It's not as if there's no episode-specific hints for motive. For example, Bern's real-Rokkenjima show mentions an interesting concept that I ran into a while back when I was thinking of why certain people get killed. If you're playing a witch, why just poke someone in the head and leave them lying in the arbor? No magic or trickery to it. I had the thought that deaths that occur outside are likely to indicate something that the killer wanted to cover up, or didn't intend to happen.

Edit: For completion's sake, how do you explain the markings on Natsuhi's door and Eva's door? Particularly the timing for Eva/Hideyoshi's death and circle appearance.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

If you're playing a witch, why just poke someone in the head and leave them lying in the arbor? No magic or trickery to it. I had the thought that deaths that occur outside are likely to indicate something that the killer wanted to cover up, or didn't intend to happen.

Yes, this was the big obvious hint from the end of EP6... it was a bit funny as it was almost saying, "Hey, if you didn't get it from EP5, the answer is... because they were all found 'dead' on nice cozy beds and sofas indoors."

I take this to mean that any deaths found outdoors are real murders. If you look at the outdoor murders, they seem to have really shoddy magical explanations. "A 10k lbs cake came and smushed them." "A golden wire dragged their corpses through a keyhole and strangled them (without reducing them to bloody chunks, yah!)" The same can be said of at least the bodies found outside...

Then there was the one where Nanjo and Kumasawa were just dead outside, no explanation given. The first two previous could be more easily explained if Eva or another sibling (or even George!) were free to commit murders... but... the one where Nanjo and Kumasawa were found dead outside after an attempt to fake indoors... who was left to really kill them and move them? Shkannon? Genji? Because Rosa and Maria weren't... and if you believe Shyasukannon and Genji aren't murderers, who's left? Magical Gouda Chef and George? 8) (Before they got killed themselves...)

Hmmm....

Originally Posted by Arkwright

Edit: For completion's sake, how do you explain the markings on Natsuhi's door and Eva's door? Particularly the timing for Eva/Hideyoshi's death and circle appearance.

In EP1, Natsuhi and Genji, or just Genji would've painted the door, as part of the plan. Natsuhi should've already been recruited as she acted as the 'key' in the Epitaph Game (i.e. the fakery.) I forget when Eva's door was painted red... ??? When did this happen again?

[AuraTwilight]

She doesn't tell Wright that she saw any of the imaginary witch friends. Will can probably confirm that she saw Shannon there with Beatrice if he wants to. It ignores those parent-ish hints. It ignores Natsuhi's relationship with Beatrice in episode 5 and references to Kinzo in other episodes. It could be as you say, but I think it's easier to explain otherwise.

Beatrice's presence in EP5 is a metaphor for illusions and deceptions. It doesn't mean Natsuhi has any sort of actual tie to the witch. Furthermore, what older friend put in a role like that wouldn't encourage a kid to behave?

That, and washing your hand and face every day is a Shinto ritual, so it has magic significance, bitches.

As for that Ep1, I'd hesitate to place all the motive in the meta-world. Why assume Beatrice gave Battler mysteries with a robotic killer? It's not as if there's no episode-specific hints for motive. For example, Bern's real-Rokkenjima show mentions an interesting concept that I ran into a while back when I was thinking of why certain people get killed. If you're playing a witch, why just poke someone in the head and leave them lying in the arbor? No magic or trickery to it. I had the thought that deaths that occur outside are likely to indicate something that the killer wanted to cover up, or didn't intend to happen.

It's not Meta-World, it's authorial. Regardless of our interpretation, Beatrice wrote the stories, and Battler is being shown them. She wants Battler to solve them. Therefore...

It's not that the heart is being ignored. It's just account for the fact that not only does "Beatrice's heart" mean herself as a person, but also the rules of the game.

Edit: For completion's sake, how do you explain the markings on Natsuhi's door and Eva's door? Particularly the timing for Eva/Hideyoshi's death and circle appearance.

Genji, as part of the script, painted the door, then woke up Natsuhi. Easy. Kanon probably did the same with Eva's door when cutting the chain and murdering. No biggie.

And yea, all outside murders are real, no exceptions.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Genji, as part of the script, painted the door, then woke up Natsuhi. Easy. Kanon probably did the same with Eva's door when cutting the chain and murdering. No biggie..

Originally Posted by Kylon foolishly said

I forget when Eva's door was painted red... ??? When did this happen again?

Oh... right... nevermind. 8)

I thought we all kinda knew Genji was the door painter. Someone mentioned (maybe it was from 2ch) that the door painting stops when he dies. Or when he "dies."

[Arkwright]

So the parents in the dining room discuss the plan to fake the twilights. Natsuhi leaves early. Jessica gives her the charm in secret, which Maria had given to Jessica. It shouldn't have been part of the plan. So why were there markings on Natsuhi's door AND on the shed? Did Genji notice the charm and understand its significance?

For Eva's door, Kumasawa and Genji must be pretty dense. Kumasawa leaves with Kanon to go to the shed and get a tool to open the chain. Kanon tells her he left the stove on or something, and goes off by himself, opens the door somehow and kills Eva/Hideyoshi, then meets Kumasawa and comes back with her to find the circle on the door. Genji and Nanjo somehow arrive later despite their shorter trip to the parlor, and none of them suspect Kanon of anything.

[AuraTwilight]

So the parents in the dining room discuss the plan to fake the twilights. Natsuhi leaves early. Jessica gives her the charm in secret, which Maria had given to Jessica. It shouldn't have been part of the plan. So why were there markings on Natsuhi's door AND on the shed? Did Genji notice the charm and understand its significance?

It was never part of the plan to kill Natsuhi. The charm, once acknowledged, was accounted for into the script, but otherwise the plot would've been "The witch says you're next. Get yo' guns on."

For Eva's door, Kumasawa and Genji must be pretty dense. Kumasawa leaves with Kanon to go to the shed and get a tool to open the chain. Kanon tells her he left the stove on or something, and goes off by himself, opens the door somehow and kills Eva/Hideyoshi, then meets Kumasawa and comes back with her to find the circle on the door. Genji and Nanjo somehow arrive later despite their shorter trip to the parlor, and none of them suspect Kanon of anything.

They're in on it, duh. Genji even corroborates the fake chain story.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

So the parents in the dining room discuss the plan to fake the twilights. Natsuhi leaves early. Jessica gives her the charm in secret, which Maria had given to Jessica. It shouldn't have been part of the plan. So why were there markings on Natsuhi's door AND on the shed? Did Genji notice the charm and understand its significance?

For Eva's door, Kumasawa and Genji must be pretty dense. Kumasawa leaves with Kanon to go to the shed and get a tool to open the chain. Kanon tells her he left the stove on or something, and goes off by himself, opens the door somehow and kills Eva/Hideyoshi, then meets Kumasawa and comes back with her to find the circle on the door. Genji and Nanjo somehow arrive later despite their shorter trip to the parlor, and none of them suspect Kanon of anything.

Technically, in EP1, Natsuhi has been recruited by the servants (i.e. the Beatrice faction as I like to call them) to fake the epitaph. So she could've let Genji know about the charm.

As for Kumasawa, she too is involved in the Epitaph game. Almost all the servants are, except for Gouda, probably.

We're not sure who exactly goes around killing everyone but we are sure that some deaths are faked, very convincingly. Or at least Battler is kept from truly inspecting the bodies. Usually by Nanjo, sometimes by the Key that was selected. In EP1, that's Natsuhi.

There will certainly be people who know about the faking and will look at the *really* dead bodies at first as "wow, that's some impressive makeup." Although some of them start to get suspicious. Or not, like Natsuhi. She's awesome. And cute.

(Check the Epitaph Game Theory in my Unified Umineko Theory link in my signature.)