[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Klashikari]

For the last time: there is -nothing- that remotely confirms or even "suggest" that Battler was an accomplice. Heck, there is nothing that actually confirms Episode 7 "theory" to boot.

Bern's little game was a mere mystery challenge addressed towards Battler and Beato. It has nothing to do with Beato's games, and its rules are way too conflicting with everything we had seen so far.

However, there are indeed very troubling points such like Ange not willing to open the cat box, the circumstances behind Ikuko finding Touya and so forth.
But right now, I really fail to see what is that trend. I really think a sizable amount of people are catching spoilers in the very wrong way (just like the ridiculous "Bern cat, lambda cake" stuff.

[Key Board]

I see him more as someone who knew about his parents plans but couldn't do anything to stop it

the best he could do was to try and save Yasu

and he failed that too

he's a tragic character

[Dormeur]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That was certainly not even mentioned in Episode 8. I have no idea where this spoiler is from, but unless I really missed a giant flag, there wasn't even the slightest indication of this.

It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by Dormeur

It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).

"Last part queen problem" is what we call it, I believe.

[Nero Allelujah]

All past truths are overshadowed by the future ones basically, right?

[Rias]

Finally finished reading ep8. I must confess that my interest in the series has dwindled since last year, and I'm not sure what was the main cause of it. Perhaps I was satisfied with some of the theories (and the fact that they get reaffirmed again and again), didn't want to keep up/participate with the load of theories on here/2ch/official board, that eventually lead to me to stop thinking about it much since Ep6. Or maybe it's the anime, but I'm not going to jab at that here That's not to say that the series got boring, it's something I can't really put into words.

Without more mumbling, my thoughts on ep8:

Spoiler for Obviously ep8 itself:

The story itself is a bit messy. It jumps from parts to parts, but manages to wrap up nicely near the end for an acceptable ending. Most of the 1st half of the story (chapter-wise) is just fluff without much meanings. Perhaps it's just the setup for Eva for the 2nd half of the story.

The 2nd half of the story, after Bern's game, is the core of this episode. It is where most of the action and development of the story is at. The single truth that Ange (and readers like me) wants, and wills of the denizens trying to preserve their story. The identity of the goats is interesting, and an accurate perception of it. You have goats who believes in magic, and those who denies magic. You have goats that have certain claims regarding the story, but weren't good enough to prove other things. It was good to see several ideas being confirmed, but none of the goat claims came as a surprise. Mostly claims that I've heard before and accepted, or wild claims that I know are false.

The only thing I was expecting, but didn't see, is some of the popular but wild theories being presented here, or by the elite goats at the golden land. It's also good to see the fantasy fights, but I find some of the fights kinda dry. It was only until they fought again in the golden land, and in library, that the fighting scenes got better.

The way the game ends with two different endings (one being the real ending as it leads to more story after the tea party) was interesting. The "trick" ending, explains the ending of ep4, which I was afraid of being not being revealed. The "magic" ending is definitely the better ending, especially when Touya got to the orphanage at the end. However, the "trick" ending is the ending that I find to be more acceptable.
Overall, the ending itself was better, and much more acceptable, than Matsuribayashi-hen for Higurashi was.

Spoiler for Top 5 scenes of Ep8:

1. "Eva Oba-san is always on your side" -> "So that's what you meant by that..." (near the end)

2. "I'm getting the best supporting actress award! And I better be in top 5 of the popularity votes!"

3. "THE WORLD!" (jojo part 3)+ "HEAVEN'S DOOR!" (jojo part 4) = Featherine power

4. Rosa Musou

5. "You knew the answer from the start..." -> "I only came to that answer at the moment of your attack."

Spoiler for after thoughts on the series as a whole:

In the end, the episode didn't reveal much about the core of the mystery: the single truth. While much of the mystery has been solved/hinted, those are mostly of the other episodes. With the single truth being unrevealed, I can't help but feel a bit left out. I get the whole "preserving the cat box" thing, but the episode re-ignited my need to know, and I can't help but speculate the events that happened in ep3, that lead to the ending we see today. Or perhaps I just missed reading some parts in ep8 where they explained it.

Spoiler for closing remark:

Just like Higurashi, I've quite enjoyed Umineko. As they said in the tea party, "we'll meet again, at something no naku koro ni!"

[ChaosDimension]

If this early spoilers are correct then I wasn't too far off. Looks like Ryukishi was right, you can solve this case before chiru.

Here's the links to my theory post ep3 and pre ep4

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...54#post2594054
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...70#post2609670

[crazysjd89]

My thoughts on Episode 8:

In short, I really liked it, despite not straightforwardly answering the mystery.

Of course, I'm a bit let down that the mystery wasn't explained more in detail, esspecially the motive (which, no matter how I look at it, is terrible.). I'd like a more concrete end, but regardless, it's not like he completly left us in the dark, as you can more or less figure it out on your own or add your own spin to it. While I still feel a bit let down by it, there are much worse ways it could have ended (the red truth was all a lie, Ange dreamed everything).

For a mystery, that might be a subpar ending, but Umineko is multi-genred, I would say. It had a lot going on in it, a lot more then just 'mystery'. And I feel that, it addressing these sections are what make me really love the ending, despite the slight let down on the mystery part.

I felt so many emotions throughout reading the whole episode. When you feel emotions while reading a story, that generally means the story is well written (you have an attachment to the characters, and it's written well.). Throughout all of Episode 8 (and the series in general), Ryukishi managed to make you feel for something, despite how you felt. For example, when Lambda was killed, I felt that Battler and Ange would get out of it for sure, but I still felt tension through the scene. Then, despite being immediatdly after, when Ange was about to be killed, I still felt tense on that scene also.

The pacing was a bit strange, but not nearly enough to ruin the story for me.

So basically, from a mystery aspect, the ending might not be very good, but from a different aspect, I enjoyed the ending. If it weren't for Episode 7, specifically, Will 'tearing the illusion from fiction', then I might not have been able to enjoy this episode as much certainly. But with that, it feels like we got enough answers to justify the ending of Episode 8.

[Klashikari]

There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:

Spoiler for misconceptions:

-The meta world was only in Yasu/Touya's head!

No, no, no and no folks. The meta world was actually confirmed. Why is that? There are only points that indicate it does exist
1) Ange, as Hisashi Yukari, remembers perfectly that Bern's stated in red that Battler died. This would arguably not be highlighted if it was a fiction. Furthermore, we know that "Hachijou Toya" has written Banquet, Alliance and End, but there was no indication it includes the meta world bikering.
Furthermore, the ???? tea party confirms that Ange -never- met "Hachijou Touya" (actually Ikuko) before because Touya refused. Therefore, as already suggested in Episode 6 with Ange's fuzzy memories: that meeting was -part- of the meta game where Ange is recruited as a temporary miko.

2) Ange was still in her depressive, nearly suicidal mood (as shown her location where she was about to jump off from the building) just before she decides to overcome the situation and follows a new life.
This drastic change of heart was only because she remembers what happened in the meta world.

3) The tea party being completely unrelated to the tale, yet we have meta world characters whereabouts etc. Also, Bern suggesting they might meet each other in another * no naku koro ni.

4) There is no "bern cat, lambda cake" at all. Sure, Hachijou Ikuko has a cat named bern, but she is the human counterpart of Featherine after all, so is that surprising? For all it takes, Bern never switches between human and meta world in this episode.
The lambda cake was probably something taken when Bern "ate" Lambda, as she was initially thought to be scrapped into candies during their first confrontation.
Unless I missed something in the initial flashback of Touya, there is no mention of either bern or lambda in the ???? party.

Thus, concluding that "everything was in Battler's head due to the amnesia" doesn't make any sense. Moreso because of the end of ???? party.



-Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits with Battler. LOLGOLD.

That may be the conclusion of Episode 7, but as I stated several times already: that cannot be applied in Episode 8 at all.
Once for all: the whole murder game was only some little game Bern has prepared for Battler and Beato, as a stalling method so Ange may rebel against Battler's "game".
1) A lot of rules do not make sense with Beato's games. More importantly, the fact "no one can use the master key, except their respective owner" and so forth are not practical. Bern stated clearly she made these rules to oversimplify her tale.
2) There is absolutely no character build up whatsoever: Bern has exposed straight the discoveries and murders setup
3) Battler's behavior is not only not convincing, but also go against Virgilia's red (which does state games etc)
4) Battler and Beato were fired up by this gameboard, and invited every denizens of the Golden Land to challenge it, despite it could very well backfire at them if Ange learns about it later on. Basically: this does not represent the truth, or has a chunk that is wrong.

Of course, I do not claim that "there is no way for Rudolf and Kyrie to be the culprits", but the whole deal with them PLUS Battler is nonsensical at best. Suffice to say, there are odd points regarding Battler, such like being alive and so forth. But Bern's little show is definitely not part of the beato's games.
So claiming the "mystery portion" of the franchise is solved like that is just not credible.

That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:

Spoiler for misconceptions:

-The meta world was only in Yasu/Touya's head!

No, no, no and no folks. The meta world was actually confirmed. Why is that? There are only points that indicate it does exist
1) Ange, as Hisashi Yukari, remembers perfectly that Bern's stated in red that Battler died. This would arguably not be highlighted if it was a fiction. Furthermore, we know that "Hachijou Toya" has written Banquet, Alliance and End, but there was no indication it includes the meta world bikering.
Furthermore, the ???? tea party confirms that Ange -never- met "Hachijou Touya" (actually Ikuko) before because Touya refused. Therefore, as already suggested in Episode 6 with Ange's fuzzy memories: that meeting was -part- of the meta game where Ange is recruited as a temporary miko.

2) Ange was still in her depressive, nearly suicidal mood (as shown her location where she was about to jump off from the building) just before she decides to overcome the situation and follows a new life.
This drastic change of heart was only because she remembers what happened in the meta world.

3) The tea party being completely unrelated to the tale, yet we have meta world characters whereabouts etc. Also, Bern suggesting they might meet each other in another * no naku koro ni.

4) There is no "bern cat, lambda cake" at all. Sure, Hachijou Ikuko has a cat named bern, but she is the human counterpart of Featherine after all, so is that surprising? For all it takes, Bern never switches between human and meta world in this episode.
The lambda cake was probably something taken when Bern "ate" Lambda, as she was initially thought to be scrapped into candies during their first confrontation.
Unless I missed something in the initial flashback of Touya, there is no mention of either bern or lambda in the ???? party.

Thus, concluding that "everything was in Battler's head due to the amnesia" doesn't make any sense. Moreso because of the end of ???? party.



-Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits with Battler. LOLGOLD.

That may be the conclusion of Episode 7, but as I stated several times already: that cannot be applied in Episode 8 at all.
Once for all: the whole murder game was only some little game Bern has prepared for Battler and Beato, as a stalling method so Ange may rebel against Battler's "game".
1) A lot of rules do not make sense with Beato's games. More importantly, the fact "no one can use the master key, except their respective owner" and so forth are not practical. Bern stated clearly she made these rules to oversimplify her tale.
2) There is absolutely no character build up whatsoever: Bern has exposed straight the discoveries and murders setup
3) Battler's behavior is not only not convincing, but also go against Virgilia's red (which does state games etc)
4) Battler and Beato were fired up by this gameboard, and invited every denizens of the Golden Land to challenge it, despite it could very well backfire at them if Ange learns about it later on. Basically: this does not represent the truth, or has a chunk that is wrong.

Of course, I do not claim that "there is no way for Rudolf and Kyrie to be the culprits", but the whole deal with them PLUS Battler is nonsensical at best. Suffice to say, there are odd points regarding Battler, such like being alive and so forth. But Bern's little show is definitely not part of the beato's games.
So claiming the "mystery portion" of the franchise is solved like that is just not credible.

That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.

I think this has mostly to do with the rather mistaken insinuation that the Kyrie-Rudolph Murder Solution is the one true solution to the murders, despite the fact that:

1. The presented evidence supporting this are merely circumstantial.
2. No evidence exists to prove beyond reasonable doubt (the primary consideration for conviction in a criminal trial) that they are the ones who did it.
3. It has been mentioned a few times that this interpretation is fitting and convenient with the data at hand, but not because it is know to be THE only explanation.

It becomes a process of induction rather than deduction, where events are interpreted precisely towards supporting the preconceived conclusion, rather than interpreting events to derive a possible conclusion. The former is exactly the opposite methodology of an investigation.

[witchfan]

I think you're mixing a bit of your own interpretation into those corrections: we don't know exactly in what sense the metaworld is real or isn't real. But I'll agree Bern = cat and Lambda = cake is a bit ridiculous, as are "metaworld is only in X's head" theories.

We also don't know in what sense the events of the island are real. I personally am quite convinced by your points, but there are good claims to the contrary:
* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?
* I had the feeling Battler and Beato challenged it merely because they didn't want anyone to open the catbox, and don't think it's important (we already know Battler is quite delusional).
* About Virgilia, I think they were talking about two different definitions of culprit.

You can argue (and maybe even prove) these arguments are wrong, but your conclusions won't be something that is immediately derived from reading EP8. They would be the result of complex reasoning and examination of evidence.

[Klashikari]

In a sense, I cannot define what is exactly the metaworld.

However, I can be certain that it is not in Touya's head at all. Quite the contrary: there are enough evidences showing that the metaworld is something unrelated to the "storytelling" done by Hachijou Touya.
Of course, we all had naturally concluded that the metaworld has -no impact- towards the events on Rokkenjima of the real world. However, they are part of the story telling for the franchise, but certainly not a metafiction as I explained earlier.

As for the games, there are 2 of them in Episode 8:
-Bern's game: as I already explained, this game served as some entertainment for Battler and Beato, but it was just a guise so Ange would actually question even more the game Battler has woven for her.
-Battler's game: a "journey" to show to Ange that the truth isn't what it matters the most in her case.

Furthermore, if you read every reactions Battler and Beato had while facing this game (along with the hints), it was pure curiosity and amusement there. It didn't have any sense of gravity, nor any sense of urgency, except at the start when they were worried about Ange, but relaxed immediately after setting terms and conditions with Bern (along with a nanoha's style friendship).
For all it takes, it really goes against their stance of "sealing the catbox" assuming Bern's game was the truth.

Even if Virgilia used a different definition of "culprit" than Bernkastel, the second part of the red goes against Bern's definition: Battler didn't kill anyone.
If he didn't, he cannot be considered as a culprit with Bernkastel definition. However, he did lie once with the purple (via Shannon's purple).
Ergo, there is no way for this tale to be applicable with the rest of Beato's game.


Except for Battler's status as the culprit being disproved with the franchise as a whole, the rest is pretty much from Episode 8 alone.

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by witchfan

* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?.

As far as I can see, the entire purpose of ep8 was:

Spoiler:

To push two conflicting 'versions of the truth' onto Ange. Bern wanted ange to believe one version (whatever that might be, I think it's that Battler was the culprit for various long reasons).

On the other hand, Battler was trying to stop Ange from finding out Bern's truth and if that failed, make her ignore it at all costs.

Battler being the culprit makes a lot of sense then. Battler's 'game' was designed to brainwash Ange into not finding the truth out and then when that failed making her ignore it.

That also explains why Eva was 'protecting' Ange (from the truth that her brother was the culprit) and why Ange reacted so badly to it in the metaworld.

Obviously the theory itself needs more foundation than that, but it''s the general outline.

RE the red: Isn't one of the points o of ep8 to show that the red probably can't be trusted?

[Klashikari]

The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which can be assumed as the definition of the golden truth (considering what happened with Ange against Bern).

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which is basically the definition of the golden truth.

Which is of course, what we're doing right now.

It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox.

[witchfan]

Hmm. I relent, then. I skimmed parts of the episode, so I can't present evidence to the contrary. Might very well be poor reading on my part.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox.

That's actually the reason why he made the ending of that kind, especially if we consider a meta existence of his own, through Hachijou Ikuko (and moreso with the Golden Land war, and every goats running around).

In fact, every single "mystery" of Umineko turned into a catbox: the truth, yasu, Lion's gender etc.

He obviously has the means and possibility to burst open the catbox, but for the better or for the worse decided not to.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

Spoiler:

RE the red: Isn't one of the points o of ep8 to show that the red probably can't be trusted?

Spoiler for Red Truth:

No, there's nothing deny the Red Truth's credibility.
But EP8's point is: Even if the Red Truth can be trusted, you can choose not to trust it.
In short, whatever you believe is true, even if the Red Truth states otherwise.
That's the Golden Truth, the truth that you believe in. And you can use the Golden Truth, your subjective truth, to deny the Red Truth, the objective truth.

[Kirroha]

Sorry if I'm wrong, but isn't Lion's gender almost confirmed to be female? After all Lion was the same person as Yasu, and Yasu was definitely stated to be of the opposite gender of Battler. At the worst I'd think it's an infertile female, but probably not hermaphrodite/male.

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Spoiler for Red Truth:

No, there's nothing deny the Red Truth's credibility.
But EP8's point is: Even if the Red Truth can be trusted, you can choose not to trust it.
In short, whatever you believe is true, even if the Red Truth states otherwise.
That's the Golden Truth, the truth that you believe in. And you can use the Golden Truth, your subjective truth, to deny the Red Truth, the objective truth.

Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.