Marineford Arc discussion (Anime-only)

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by paradox13

I have always assumed that the duels between Shanks and Mihawk have always ended in draws..or the win-loss ratio was pretty even, with maybe a few more going to Mihawk.

That's most likely the case.

The point is that Vista is VERY VERY close to Mihawk's level..and had the fight gone on longer, maybe Vista would have lost as he ran out of stamina. But that in no way implies that Mihawk was TOYING with Vista..thats incredibly insulting to Vista, who is the top swordsman in the top crew of the world.

That's not saying much if the top crew in the world doesn't have many swordsman. They probably do, but I'm just throwing it out there. And if Vista was near Mihawk's level, which would put him near Shanks' level, where was the world-shaking battle that should have ensued?

And it's not my intention to insult Vista; I happen to like Vista. But his skills just didn't impress me.

[karumofin]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Akainu wouldn't have any reason to lie... in fact, he was bragging.

He didn't lie, I'm sure that his magma DOES vaporate fire, but still this sort of damage to a Logia user can only be accounted for with haki imo.
If you think about it for a bit, it is also the only reason why Jinbei was able to stop the magma with his bare fists without melting away.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Whitebeard is Whitebeard. Kaidou, Shanks & ????? are powerful pirates of the world - but Whitebeard stands at the very top of the world.

The emperors are all comparable to each other, so the differences between them are most likely negligible. Despite the fact that Whitebeard is the Strongest, there are those who can give him serious problems or even fatally wound him.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Look at the state of Marine HQ and the Marines. They've suffered huge losses, Marine HQ is on the verge of being completely destroyed and this is from a man who was fighting when his health was failing him.

Fodder can always be replaced. The elites are all still standing and ready for more. In other words, they haven't suffered any noteworthy losses.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

WB shoulda taken to the battlefield at the very start. When he was still at full strength.

No. He did the right thing by strategizing/coordinating the movements of his forces. If he had rushed in like a fool, he would have been bombarded by assaults from the fortified defenses (much like what happened to Oars Jr.). Like Whitebeard said, there's a difference between bravery and being suicidal.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Joz got owned by Doflamingo, Vista couldn't touch Mihawk

Throughout the war, Jozu was like the Juggernaut. Once he gained momentum and tackled his enemies, there was no stopping him. However, Doflamingo was the only one who managed to stop the behemoth dead in his tracks. Despite that, notice how Doflamingo didn't control him like he did to Atmos (13th Division Commander) and how he didn't slice off any of his limbs (perhaps because he's diamond). I don't consider this ownage. Stopping someone while they're preoccupied with someone else isn't necessarily indicative of superiority.

Vista and Mihawk were locked in a stalemate, although it's clear neither of them were giving it their 100%.

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

That's most likely the case.



That's not saying much if the top crew in the world doesn't have many swordsman. They probably do, but I'm just throwing it out there. And if Vista was near Mihawk's level, which would put him near Shanks' level, where was the world-shaking battle that should have ensued?

And it's not my intention to insult Vista; I happen to like Vista. But his skills just didn't impress me.

Totally Agree..

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Throughout the war, Jozu was like the Juggernaut. Once he gained momentum and tackled his enemies, there was no stopping him. However, Doflamingo was the only one who managed to stop the behemoth dead in his tracks. Despite that, notice how Doflamingo didn't control him like he did to Atmos (13th Division Commander) and how he didn't slice off any of his limbs (perhaps because he's diamond). I don't consider this ownage. Stopping someone while they're preoccupied with someone else isn't necessarily indicative of superiority.

No, but he was taken out of the fight for a lengthy period of time twice.

Vista and Mihawk were locked in a stalemate, although it's clear neither of them were giving it their 100%.

And do you believe Mihawk was holding back far more than Vista?

-----

Besides, this whole thing has been taken too far. My original comment was an attempt to explain that Whitebeard was basically facing down the Marines by himself.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No, but he was taken out of the fight for a lengthy period of time twice.

Twice? Doflamingo only stopped him momentarily. It was until Croc did his sandstorm that Jozu got free of his clutches.

Aokiji was the one who permanently took him out. That's what happens when you let your guard down. He's the kind of opponent you can't afford to make a mistake against. Ice Time = Game Over. But prior to Jozu's distraction, he was fighting equally against Aokiji. That is impressive.

Let's also not forget he stopped Mihawk's slash that was directed at Whitebeard. His diamond defenses are nearly impenetrable.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And do you believe Mihawk was holding back far more than Vista?

Had the fight became more serious and gone on longer, I believe Mihawk would have prevailed. But even so, Vista is a formidable opponent. He's not a weakling. The fact that Mihawk knows his name is a testament to that, since he doesn't remember the names of weaklings.

Vista is amongst the greatest swordsmen in the One Piece universe.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Let's also not forget he stopped Mihawk's slash that was directed at Whitebeard. His diamond defenses are nearly impenetrable.

And that was just a quick one handed strike to get things moving. Cutting a mountain of ice in half as the result of an aftershock from a two-handed sword swing seems much stronger to me.

Had the fight became more serious and gone on longer, I believe Mihawk would have prevailed. But even so, Vista is a formidable opponent. He's not a weakling. The fact that Mihawk knows his name is a testament to that, since he doesn't remember the names of weaklings.

Vista is amongst the greatest swordsmen in the One Piece universe.

No he's not, but you should be aware of what you're also arguing by association. Mihawk and Shanks fought on even grounds countless times, and saying that Vista is capable of a similar feat is like saying that he's in the same tier as Shanks, and by extension Whitebeard and Garp. Yes, there's a lot of Rock>Paper>Scissors<Rock going on, but at that level, that whole system doesn't really matter anymore.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And that was just a quick one handed strike to get things moving. Cutting a mountain of ice in half as the result of an aftershock from a two-handed sword swing seems much stronger to me.

No matter how you look at it, Mihawk had to have put in a considerable amount of effort into the slash he threw at Whitebeard. Why? Because this is the Strongest Man in the World we're talking about here. The whole point of that slash was to gauge the difference between Mihawk and Whitebeard. He was testing Whitebeard, and he wouldn't test him with a weak (by his standards) slash.

Besides, I think you need to take a look at how big that slash was again. It was bigger than the Moby Dick!

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No he's not, but you should be aware of what you're also arguing by association. Mihawk and Shanks fought on even grounds countless times, and saying that Vista is capable of a similar feat is like saying that he's in the same tier as Shanks, and by extension Whitebeard and Garp. Yes, there's a lot of Rock>Paper>Scissors<Rock going on, but at that level, that whole system doesn't really matter anymore.

Holding someone off doesn't = being in the same tier.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

No matter how you look at it, Mihawk had to have put in a considerable amount of effort into the slash he threw at Whitebeard. Why? Because this is the Strongest Man in the World we're talking about here. The whole point of that slash was to gauge the difference between Mihawk and Whitebeard. He was testing Whitebeard, and he wouldn't test him with a weak (by his standards) slash.

Besides, I think you need to take a look at how big that slash was again. It was bigger than the Moby Dick!

And it was just one-handed. Imagine what a two handed blast he put all of his power into would do.

Holding someone off doesn't = being in the same tier.

No, but it means you'd have to use far more power relative to your opponent to do it.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And it was just one-handed. Imagine what a two handed blast he put all of his power into would do.

I don't think that matters. As Mihawk said to Zoro, "there's no strength in swordplay based on force". To reinforce this, Shanks (who only has one arm) and Whitebeard (who has both arms) clashed weapons, which consequently split the heavens.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No, but it means you'd have to use far more power relative to your opponent to do it.

But Vista didn't appear to be expending much energy.

[FlareKnight]

Spoiler for 483:

Well that's the end of Ace. Not surprised they spent an episode on this since really his death is pretty huge for the series. The impact on Luffy is incredible as seen in his reaction at the end. He's just lost it a little which isn't unexpected. He pushed himself so incredibly hard and now his brother is gone just like that. Every time he's managed to make it. They stopped Moria before it was too late, saved Robin, etc. This time there just wasn't anything he could have done.

And to the doctor if you can't see a gaping wound like that even with Luffy's hand partially in the way you have some problems .

I hope Whitebeard tears Akainu apart. Even if he's going to die it's not going to happen before the world sees what the rage of Whitebeard really looks like. Though not sure he'll be able to take that guy down with the damage he's taken. Besides could see Akainu being left around for a revenge fight later on.

Good on Garp for at least trying to do something. He knows his position well and yet I'm sure if Sengoku wasn't holding him down he would go over there and try to kill Akainu.

Just a frustrating loss. I don't think the numbers that the Navy has lost are so easily replaced as some might think. Still the top are still there while Whitebeard's crew took catastrophic losses. It's a win for the navy at an acceptable loss for them.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by sanzo

NO HES NOT?! wtf are you talking about?? you should just stop talking.

Yeah, I'm just going to go ahead and tell everyone that I automatically ignore any poster who tells me to shut up in their opening sentence.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

The fourth one is ?????

Yes, i know who the 4th is - this is an anime only topic and that name has yet to be revealed.

Yes, Whitebeard is a force of nature, but let's look at everyone else. Marco was able to fight Kizaru on even grounds but that's it, Ace was basically useless, Joz got owned by Doflamingo, Vista couldn't touch Mihawk, and the 43 NW Captains couldn't even make it past the siege wall and were routed by the Pacifista. Whitebeard is for all intents and purposes alone in this battle, and it's taking its toll.

Got owned by DoFlamingo? I dun think so. He only got stopped by him because Flamingo wanted to team up with Crocodile.

Joz blocked Mihawk's attack, he ripped a mountain sized Iceberg outta the sea and tossed it into Marine HQ - without a doubt the single most impressive display of physical strength we've ever seen, though WB stoppin that Paddle ship with 1 hand is pretty damned impressive too.
His only failin in the entire war was that he allowed himself to get distracted by Marco bein taken out - and gettin completely frozen.

Joz is a juggernaut. Go into full diamond mode - add that to his monsterous physical strength and his ability to use haki - and you've got 1 powerhouse who is right up there with the very elite of the OP world.

Vista and Mihawk never even had a serious fight - though of course 1 would expect Mihawk would win since he is the greatest, he clearly had respect for Vista. You don't get to get to be the No.1 swordsman of the world's strongest Pirate crew without good reason.

The NW captains clearly managed to deal with the Pacifistas. Makugai took 1 out all by himself, though it was anime only- they were fightin against the Vice Admirals, who're not exactly weaklings now are they?

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

That's most likely the case.



That's not saying much if the top crew in the world doesn't have many swordsman. They probably do, but I'm just throwing it out there. And if Vista was near Mihawk's level, which would put him near Shanks' level, where was the world-shaking battle that should have ensued?

And it's not my intention to insult Vista; I happen to like Vista. But his skills just didn't impress me.

Many of the WB pirates use swords. As do many of the commanders.

I dun see how u can even judge Vista, seein as how none of his skills were even shown off durin the war. What we can say and judge based on what we've seen - we know he's a world class & famous swordsman & No1 swordsman of the strongest pirate crew in the entre world.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Got owned by DoFlamingo? I dun think so. He only got stopped by him because Flamingo wanted to team up with Crocodile.

We don't really know why Doflamingo decided to sit on Joz, but the point is that he was taken out of action because of it.

Joz blocked Mihawk's attack, he ripped a mountain sized Iceberg outta the sea and tossed it into Marine HQ - without a doubt the single most impressive display of physical strength we've ever seen, though WB stoppin that Paddle ship with 1 hand is pretty damned impressive too.

It's very impressive, but the whole point I'm trying to make is that Whitebeard is basically fighting by himself right now.

His only failin in the entire war was that he allowed himself to get distracted by Marco bein taken out - and gettin completely frozen.

And why the hell would you allow your guard to drop around an Admiral? I don't care what the situation is, you keep your full attention on the Admiral.

Vista and Mihawk never even had a serious fight - though of course 1 would expect Mihawk would win since he is the greatest, he clearly had respect for Vista. You don't get to get to be the No.1 swordsman of the world's strongest Pirate crew without good reason.

You don't, but I would have liked to have seen Vista doing feats similar to Marco and Joz. What the hell did we see him do after the Marco fight?

The NW captains clearly managed to deal with the Pacifistas. Makugai took 1 out all by himself, though it was anime only- they were fightin against the Vice Admirals, who're not exactly weaklings now are they?

The VA are definitely not weaklings, but there's a big difference between a VA and the level of opponent the commanders were fighting.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Many of the WB pirates use swords. As do many of the commanders.

I dun see how u can even judge Vista, seein as how none of his skills were even shown off durin the war. What we can say and judge based on what we've seen - we know he's a world class & famous swordsman & No1 swordsman of the strongest pirate crew in the entre world.

The point I was trying to make was that not every top tier swordsman is a pirate.

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And why the hell would you allow your guard to drop around an Admiral? I don't care what the situation is, you keep your full attention on the Admiral.

Let's just say that your mum/dad was whitebeard and had a health problem and you was fighting like a person with a gun. And your parents had a health situation during the fight.. Wouldn't you try and help her or something lol?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Pwnago

Let's just say that your mum/dad was whitebeard and had a health problem and you was fighting like a person with a gun. And your parents had a health situation during the fight.. Wouldn't you try and help her or something lol?

Let's put it another way: You and your friends are going into a life and death fight, fully realizing that there's going to be casualties. One of them dies. What do you do?

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Let's put it another way: You and your friends are going into a life and death fight, fully realizing that there's going to be casualties. One of them dies. What do you do?

Help him -.-.. Both ways 1 of them are going to backstab you zz

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Pwnago

Help him -.-.. Both ways 1 of them are going to backstab you zz

So then your friends have to bury one addition person than if you hadn't? And what happens if another friend tries to help you and gets himself killed like you did, and then another tries to help him, and so on?

[Pwnago]

Yeah.. but friends is a different matter. Whitebeard's crew is like a BIG family. So friends and family is a big difference.