TW has dropped Naruto.

[monir]

I had to scratch my head on this whole message. I will try to respond with more clarity of what I meant by that "lame comment".

Originally Posted by Ookla The Mok

This is a hobby. It seems like some people don't understand that. Sure we try to do a good job on whatever we do, but it's not a career. We have no obligation to do anything. If you don't like the way we as fans decide to do things we like and are motivated to do, you're perfectly free to go with whoever else you want. But to say we're "not a good fansubbing group" makes no sense.

How superficial can you be? Surely you must realize these are some of the old cliches that have been recycled by many other groups (mostly quitters and ungracious fansubbers). Most fans recognize the fact that the fansubbing is by the fans, for the fans. It becomes a greater responsibility for those few fans (Fansubbers) when they decide to bring their work "they so dearly enjoyed" to a broader range of fans, especially when those fans think (compliment) the fansubbing group is doing a darn good job. A good fansubbing group try to maintain that responsibility through dedication and dedication usually follows from the sense of obligation.

Of course we were going to drop it eventually. We would have dropped it as soon as it got licensed. So what if we decided to work on something new rather than something that's a year old? Some of you won't be able to complete your collection? Some guy even complained that now he'd have to delete our first 53 episodes and download them from someone else instead. This makes no sense to me.

Huh! If you are one of the "fan" that are representing TW then I repeat, TW is not a good fansubbing group. Groups like Lunar, Anbu, AFK, Triad and few other quality group can actually use the viable "licensed by an American company" excuse because they are pretty much on par with their projects and anytime there is any sorts of halting of their release they usually are generous enough to let the fans know why there is an interruption to the regular flow of their fansubbing effort. When you can't even fathom why a fan might complain about deleting your work and starting over with another group, then you must realize that you are a bad fansubbing group. Many fans like that one thought TW has done an outstanding job on Naruto among all the other fansubbing groups that have subbed Naruto. The compliment by that fan (why he wanted to collect TW's work) is just that obvious.

We enjoyed doing Naruto while we did it. We're happy some people have enjoyed the effort we put into it. (Thanks for your kind words, Elly and like-minded people.) Now it's time to move on.

Sure TW have enjoyed doing Naruto and I am sure TW (you?) will enjoy doing Bleach too. I just think it is perfectly logical course to forewarn the fans that TW may disappoint them again by quitting where the excuse is given might not be as viable as "the show was licensed". Just a hunch. Sure, let's move on.

[Ookla The Mok]

There is no reason to delete 53 perfectly good fansubs, unless a show is licensed. If you think there is, you're the one being superficial. You declaring that we are not a good fansubbing group does not make it so.

Why were we delayed so long? There were lots of reasons, which we explained in our forum on various occasions. It's simple to fall behind. We kept even for half a year, and then slowly got more and more behind. Maybe you would have preferred us to release half-finished, partial-effort subs, but we felt like doing the best we could. If the other groups had done a better job than we thought we could do, then there would have been no reason for us to continue. We still think an as-good-as-possible sub is lacking. If another group would like to pick up at episode 54 following our tradition, they're more than welcome. Sure I would have liked to finish it, but the motivation has wasted away. Better to admit it now than to leave everyone hanging.

What fansub group are you in? I suppose Elly was not a reliable commentator in your eyes, since he's on Shin-Otaku staff, and Shin-Otaku is currently falling behind on subbing Naruto.

[Darth_E_]

Oh yes I do agree

There are many reasons why fansubbers fall behind in a series. I dunno why should TW be called a "bad fansubbers" because they fell behind. For example, in our case, real life hit our translators and they couldn't translate .Not till today did I get ep103 and ep104 translations. Does that mean we are bad subbers? Dunno if we are bad or not, but it couldnt be helped. No matter how much dedicated I am, I simply cannot do anything without translations. And many times did we ask for translation help and no one offered any ( take away one).Chances that something similar happened to TW, and when they tried to catch up, the gap between the newest episode and their latest release started to widen up, and eventually they started losing interest & motivation ( Subbing 53 episodes in a short period of time is not an easy job at all ).

I think you should try looking at things from the other side of the fence. And despite how they fell behind, they still released few episodes before they dropped it. You need free & capable staff in order to keep up with a series, and when one of them can't do his/her part, the team's efficency will be affected. You probably won't see that situation in bigger groups because they have more than enough staff to sub many series at a time and fill for other people's places.

Yours,
-Elly

[monir]

Originally Posted by Ookla The Mok

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Sure I would have liked to finish it, but the motivation has wasted away. Better to admit it now than to leave everyone hanging.

What fansub group are you in? I suppose Elly was not a reliable commentator in your eyes, since he's on Shin-Otaku staff, and Shin-Otaku is currently falling behind on subbing Naruto.

Although many of the fans have already guessed the reason behind the sluggish pace of TW's release, it was, however, refreshing to see the real reason being finally told. Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted to know.

It doesn't matter if I am affiliated with a group or not. Through my rants I was letting you know that I am a fan with good instinct/insight and not just a mindless leecher. Beside the fansubbing skills such as editing, encoding, typesetting, karaoking etc. are self acquired skills by people/fans that have chosen to spend time and effort to acquire these not-so-extraordinary skills.

Anyway, I have said what I wanted to say. The point I was endeavoring to make through my long rant (including two of my previous posts) is that TW has quit on their fans, let it be for motivational purpose and what not. Now that the group have undertaken another potentially longer running series as their fansubbing project, implications are the group will continue till their motivation runs dry or if the show is licensed before the inspiration to do-anymore is no longer. From my point of view I do not recognize such groups as good fansubbing group. There you go. I have let you know my displeasure of things. I will not be making any further comments on this topic.



Elly, you miss the point of this discussion completely. It was not about TW's apparent delaying of their release, rather how they chose to drop a show and start on another project while ignoring the fans that thought the group was already doing an outstanding job. To reiterate, the implication that gives off from this prospect is that TW will demonstrate their superior skills in translating/editing till they loose their inspiration for it by falling hopelessly behind for whatever reason(s). They would then drop/quit and move onto another project rather than continue even if it means continuing in a sluggish pace. Note that TW has the means (typesetter, encoder, translator etc.) to start a new project. They are simply choosing not to use these means to continue on Naruto, so not having translator-argument goes out the window.

By the way, most (if not all) of the big fansubbing group that we see today have started out small. As these groups proved themselves to be reliable, dedicated, organized among their fanbase, they were able to attract more of these fans-with-skills (typesetter, encoder etc.) and grew. Atleast that is how I perceive it.

[Ookla The Mok]

Originally Posted by monir

Although many of the fans have already guessed the reason behind the sluggish pace of TW's release, it was, however, refreshing to see the real reason being finally told. Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted to know.

The real reason? There are several reasons. The main one being that our main translator is actually WORKING and thus getting paid for translating, and he doesn't have time to do Naruto anymore. He did the first episode of Bleach but someone else, who is not interested in doing Naruto, will be doing most of the others.

It doesn't matter if I am affiliated with a group or not. Through my rants I was letting you know that I am a fan with good instinct/insight and not just a mindless leecher.

Nope. You've proven nothing of the sort. Instead you've proven yourself to be a self-serving person who believes fansubbers exist only to serve you. In other words, a precisely a mindless leecher.

Anyway, I have said what I wanted to say. The point I was endeavoring to make through my long rant (including two of my previous posts) is that TW has quit on their fans, let it be for motivational purpose and what not. Now that the group have undertaken another potentially longer running series as their fansubbing project, implications are the group will continue till their motivation runs dry or if the show is licensed before the inspiration to do-anymore is no longer. From my point of view I do not recognize such groups as good fansubbing group. There you go. I have let you know my displeasure of things. I will not be making any further comments on this topic.

Well, I'm glad you will no longer comment. It was getting rather tiring. How unfortunate that we do not pass the Monir Test®.

Is there a guarantee we'll finish the series or go until it's licensed? No. Does that make you happy to know? We'll do the best we can, but who knows?

Elly, you miss the point of this discussion completely. It was not about TW's apparent delaying of their release, rather how they chose to drop a show and start on another project while ignoring the fans that thought the group was already doing an outstanding job. To reiterate, the implication that gives off from this prospect is that TW will demonstrate their superior skills in translating/editing till they loose their inspiration for it by falling hopelessly behind for whatever reason(s). They would then drop/quit and move onto another project rather than continue even if it means continuing in a sluggish pace. Note that TW has the means (typesetter, encoder, translator etc.) to start a new project. They are simply choosing not to use these means to continue on Naruto, so not having translator-argument goes out the window.

I've already explained this. We did have a encoder and editor who wanted to continue, but the other people were no longer available. And why would we force a new person to do a series they didn't want to do?

By the way, most (if not all) of the big fansubbing group that we see today have started out small. As these groups proved themselves to be reliable, dedicated, organized among their fanbase, they were able to attract more of these fans-with-skills (typesetter, encoder etc.) and grew. Atleast that is how I perceive it.

TW is a small group. We have no intention of being big. We're just a small group of people who are fansubbing a show we like. To me a good fansubbing group is one that does a good job on the episodes they release. That's my only criteria (except maybe that they should start from the beginning of a series. That may not serve the leechers who just demand a new episode every week, as proven by the numbers that groups that release a show in 18 hours get, but I would get little personal satisfaction doing a crappy job fast.

Note that we're still the only group who went through the trouble of actually buying the 2004 Jump Festa DVD and releasing the Naruto special from that (except for a French group). Clearly we weren't doing that because it was easy.

[Kidd]

It's sad to me to see TW go, because it's pretty much TW that is my goal when it comes to the quality I want to achieve. I want my own subs to be as accurate as them, I want my friends (editors) to be able to word their english as nice as them, I want my friends (timers) to be able to time as well as them and I also surely want my friends (typesetters and encoders) to be able to put out quality work that rivals TW. TW is one of those groups I rank highly for their quality. I don't care if they for some reason get slowed down, they're still the best I can find for Naruto. So what if they were a year behind? That first year of eps, well... I know which subs to recommend to my friends. So what if they don't have the resources or the motivation to work any longer than they have right now? It's up to them, and I'm glad they gave us all the favour of subbing these 53 eps of Naruto. In a way it's possible, that had it not been for TW, I wouldn't even be fansubbing now. I respect TW highly, and I'll be damned if someone bad mouths them for a no good reason, saying they owe someone anything just because they decided to do them an awesome favour. If someone tells me "I can help you carry your bag", then this person realizes after a couple of meters that the bag is too heavy for her, I will take the bag back and I will just thank my friend for doing her best in helping me. In no way do I have the right to tell her that she should've carried it all the way to my house just because she first offered herself to do so; obviously she wasn't able to, but she did carry it as far as she could. That's highly respectable from my point of view.

Also, calling things cliches back and forth.. there's a reason why they are cliches. What are cliches? Things that are said often. Why are they said often? Maybe because they're true?

Finally, Ookla The Mok, if you or any other person of TW is willing to help us out when the dvd of the naruto movie gets out, just message me; I'll be honoured. You will be missed on the Naruto torrent-listing, but I give you all the best of my regards.

[kiai]

Originally Posted by Kidd

It's sad to me to see TW go, because it's pretty much TW that is my goal when it comes to the quality I want to achieve. I want my own subs to be as accurate as them, I want my friends (editors) to be able to word their english as nice as them, I want my friends (timers) to be able to time as well as them and I also surely want my friends (typesetters and encoders) to be able to put out quality work that rivals TW. TW is one of those groups I rank highly for their quality. I don't care if they for some reason get slowed down, they're still the best I can find for Naruto. So what if they were a year behind? That first year of eps, well... I know which subs to recommend to my friends. So what if they don't have the resources or the motivation to work any longer than they have right now? It's up to them, and I'm glad they gave us all the favour of subbing these 53 eps of Naruto. In a way it's possible, that had it not been for TW, I wouldn't even be fansubbing now. I respect TW highly, and I'll be damned if someone bad mouths them for a no good reason, saying they owe someone anything just because they decided to do them an awesome favour. If someone tells me "I can help you carry your bag", then this person realizes after a couple of meters that the bag is too heavy for her, I will take the bag back and I will just thank my friend for doing her best in helping me. In no way do I have the right to tell her that she should've carried it all the way to my house just because she first offered herself to do so; obviously she wasn't able to, but she did carry it as far as she could. That's highly respectable from my point of view.

Also, calling things cliches back and forth.. there's a reason why they are cliches. What are cliches? Things that are said often. Why are they said often? Maybe because they're true?

Finally, Ookla The Mok, if you or any other person of TW is willing to help us out when the dvd of the naruto movie gets out, just message me; I'll be honoured. You will be missed on the Naruto torrent-listing, but I give you all the best of my regards.

This is a good thread and this quote is not to be missed as an average viewer, but as for the forum scene in general. I would not want to be around it if I were one of the subbers, I'm sure all the insults would drive someone into a complex. Not to say that's why that particular group dropped the show. heh. I've decided to get all the TW I don't havr yet completed.

[Rotweiler]

Originally Posted by monir

I had to scratch my head on this whole message. I will try to respond with more clarity of what I meant by that "lame comment".

How superficial can you be? Surely you must realize these are some of the old cliches that have been recycled by many other groups (mostly quitters and ungracious fansubbers). Most fans recognize the fact that the fansubbing is by the fans, for the fans. It becomes a greater responsibility for those few fans (Fansubbers) when they decide to bring their work "they so dearly enjoyed" to a broader range of fans, especially when those fans think (compliment) the fansubbing group is doing a darn good job. A good fansubbing group try to maintain that responsibility through dedication and dedication usually follows from the sense of obligation.

Huh! If you are one of the "fan" that are representing TW then I repeat, TW is not a good fansubbing group. Groups like Lunar, Anbu, AFK, Triad and few other quality group can actually use the viable "licensed by an American company" excuse because they are pretty much on par with their projects and anytime there is any sorts of halting of their release they usually are generous enough to let the fans know why there is an interruption to the regular flow of their fansubbing effort. When you can't even fathom why a fan might complain about deleting your work and starting over with another group, then you must realize that you are a bad fansubbing group. Many fans like that one thought TW has done an outstanding job on Naruto among all the other fansubbing groups that have subbed Naruto. The compliment by that fan (why he wanted to collect TW's work) is just that obvious.

Sure TW have enjoyed doing Naruto and I am sure TW (you?) will enjoy doing Bleach too. I just think it is perfectly logical course to forewarn the fans that TW may disappoint them again by quitting where the excuse is given might not be as viable as "the show was licensed". Just a hunch. Sure, let's move on.

I don't think fansubbers are obligated to complete their projects. Are you paying them to do this? No. Are you in any shape or form contribute to help them to bring their releases? No. So how are they responsible for bringing releases week after week? Before you get off and start whinging about how one fansubber is unreliable, maybe you should try doing one yourself and see how hard it is. People do have live outside fansubbing and they do not always have the time to serve your need week in, week out. And BTW, why does it matter that if you download from one fansubber to another? The idea of fansubs is to fulfill a short-term need until the show is licensed by a company. How does it matter that you get your sub from different subbers? Unless, of course, you're a pirate who intend to live on fansubs for their anime needs and thefefore needs consistent subs from one fansubber all the time.

[kiai]

Originally Posted by Rotweiler

I don't think fansubbers are obligated to complete their projects. Are you paying them to do this? No. Are you in any shape or form contribute to help them to bring their releases? No. So how are they responsible for bringing releases week after week? Before you get off and start whinging about how one fansubber is unreliable, maybe you should try doing one yourself and see how hard it is. People do have live outside fansubbing and they do not always have the time to serve your need week in, week out. And BTW, why does it matter that if you download from one fansubber to another? The idea of fansubs is to fulfill a short-term need until the show is licensed by a company. How does it matter that you get your sub from different subbers? Unless, of course, you're a pirate who intend to live on fansubs for their anime needs and thefefore needs consistent subs from one fansubber all the time.

Oh mama mia. Fansubbers need respect baby yeah!

[NoSanninWa]

It was nice that we got the news that TW has officially dropped Naruto, but this is not the place to insult them, their fandom, or the people who disapprove of TW for dropping the show.

If you wish to flame TW, the place to do that is in their forum and irc channels so that they can ban you themselves since I'd rather not have to do it.