Marineford Arc discussion (Anime-only)

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

It was all rather back and forth. The Marines gained the upperhand with the Pacifistas, and then the meteor attack by Akainu, but once they broke into the Plaza - it was anyone's game then.

No they didn't, those Pacfista only got some fodder pirates, it never stopped the advance to the platform.

Even in the Plaza, the Pafista were getting destroyed by New World Captains.

What do you think would have happened if WB didn't get his heart attack? Akainu would have eventually either lose or retreat, and Jozu and Marco would still be fighting their respective Admiral opponents.

Sengoku even admits that either neither him or Garp are going to escape unscathed.

Originally Posted by Pwnago

Sorry, you are wrong :/. The marines fell back because Sengoku had a plan.

No you're wrong, the Pirates breaching the bay was not part of Sengoku's plan, hence the Vice Admiral's comment at the bottom right corner.



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Originally Posted by Pwnago

They were going to trap all the white beard pirates inside the big metal cage so there would be no escape. Then from the back the fake kumas will shoot lasers and keep them trapped, but unfortunately Oars blood stop one of the walls so they advanced foward. So Whitebeard really didn't have a upper hand. They were more likely even but Marines winning abit more.

And from what im remember.. what happened to the large gigantic metal wall ¬_¬ It just suddenly disappeared..

The Marines never pushed the pirates back, it was always the other way around. The pirates were winning the war before Whitebeard's heart attack.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Whitebeard Pirates were raping the Marines for the majority of the war.

Oh really? Then why are Sengoku, Garp, the 3 admirals, and Vice Admirals, still in good fighting condition? Eliminating hordes of fodder is meaningless when the real threats remain.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Oh really? Then why are Sengoku, Garp, the 3 admirals, and Vice Admirals, still in good fighting condition? Eliminating hordes of fodder is meaningless when the real threats remain.

Sengoku and Garp weren't even fighting first of all.

As for the 3 Admirals, they just started fighting Whitebeard, Marco, and Jozu. It's obvious that Whitebeard would have defeated Akainu eventually if it wasn't for the heart attack.

Then that leaves the other 2 Admirals against those 3.

The Marines were being pushed back, even Sengoku agrees that him and Garp weren't leaving the battle unscathed, and the only way for the pirates to get to them...is for the Marines to be pushed back even more.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Sengoku and Garp weren't even fighting first of all.

As for the 3 Admirals, they just started fighting Whitebeard, Marco, and Jozu. It's obvious that Whitebeard would have defeated Akainu eventually if it wasn't for the heart attack.

Then that leaves the other 2 Admirals against those 3.

The Marines were being pushed back, even Sengoku agrees that him and Garp weren't leaving the battle unscathed, and the only way for the pirates to get to them...is for the Marines to be pushed back even more.

And despite the fact that Sengoku and Garp didn't involve themselves very much, WB's side still came out short in the end. Not to mention the shichibukai fighting amongst themselves and half-assing their efforts throughout the war. Taking all of this into account, WB still fought a losing battle.

So what if Sengoku said that he and Garp wouldn't come out unscathed? That in no way indicates WB's side had any advantage. It just means things wouldn't go so smoothly.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

And despite the fact that Sengoku and Garp didn't involve themselves very much, WB's side still came out short in the end. Not to mention the shichibukai fighting amongst themselves and half-assing their efforts throughout the war. Taking all of this into account, WB still fought a losing battle.

Only because of that heart attack, otherwise it's clear what would have happened.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

So what if Sengoku said that he and Garp wouldn't come out unscathed? That in no way indicates WB's side had any advantage. It just means things wouldn't go so smoothly.

It means that the 3 Admirals are going to need help otherwise the Pirates achieve their objective.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Only because of that heart attack, otherwise it's clear what would have happened.

Show me proof. His health had been deteriorating for a long while. And it was after he suffered his heart attack that he temporarily incapacitated Akainu. So this point of yours is moot.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

It means that the 3 Admirals are going to need help otherwise the Pirates achieve their objective.

No it doesn't. It means they're likely to get injured in the process of trying to carry out the execution.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Show me proof. His health had been deteriorating for a long while. And it was after he suffered his heart attack that he temporarily incapacitated Akainu. So this point of yours is moot.

Proof of what exactly?

Because of his heart attack, he received an unnecessary injury, Marco was handcuffed, and Jozu was defeated.

If that heart attack didn't happen, Whitebeard would have defeated Akainu. He then could have helped Jozu who was fighting equally with Aokiji on his own. Then that leaves them to deal with Kizaru.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

No it doesn't. It means they're likely to get injured in the process of trying to carry out the execution.

Those two aren't going to move unless they are attacked because they have to protect Ace. This was made clear when they didn't even budge after Akainu got owned by Whitebeard. Which means that the only way for them to be scathed is for the Pirates to fight them, aka for the 3 Admirals to be defeated.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Proof of what exactly?

Proof that things would have gone down radically different like you presume.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Because of his heart attack, he received an unnecessary injury, Marco was handcuffed, and Jozu was defeated.

If that heart attack didn't happen, Whitebeard would have defeated Akainu. He then could have helped Jozu who was fighting equally with Aokiji on his own. Then that leaves them to deal with Kizaru.

WB's deteriorating health and Marco's and Jozu's distractions were their problems. Discussing "what if" scenarios doesn't prove anything on your part.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Those two aren't going to move unless they are attacked because they have to protect Ace. This was made clear when they didn't even budge after Akainu got owned by Whitebeard. Which means that the only way for them to be scathed is for the Pirates to fight them, aka for the 3 Admirals to be defeated.

Akainu's loss happened after Ace died. The marines had already completed their objective, and thus Sengoku and Garp were free of restraints.

Pirates fighting Garp and Sengoku doesn't mean the defeat of the 3 admirals. That's poor logic and makes no sense.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Proof that things would have gone down radically different like you presume.



WB's deteriorating health and Marco's and Jozu's distractions were their problems. Discussing "what if" scenarios doesn't prove anything on your part.

This isn't really that difficult to grasp.

Before Whitebeard had his heart attack, Jozu was fighting equally with Aokiji, and Vista and Marco were completely unharmed.

Obviously things would have been different.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Akainu's loss happened after Ace died.

Because Akainu ran away from Whitebeard, even though he got a free shot on him thanks to that heart attack.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

The marines had already completed their objective, and thus Sengoku and Garp were free of restraints.

Not sure how this is relevant at all.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Pirates fighting Garp and Sengoku doesn't mean the defeat of the 3 admirals. That's poor logic and makes no sense.

Okay.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

This isn't really that difficult to grasp.

Before Whitebeard had his heart attack, Jozu was fighting equally with Aokiji, and Vista and Marco were completely unharmed.

Obviously things would have been different.

And prior to WB's heart attack, Akainu was fighting evenly with him. Hell, there were even moments when Aokiji and Kizaru had the upper hand on WB.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Because Akainu ran away from Whitebeard, even though he got a free shot on him thanks to that heart attack.

1) Akainu never ran away from WB.

2) WB got a free shot on Akainu as well.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Not sure how this is relevant at all.

Read the posts again and you'll understand.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

And prior to WB's heart attack, Akainu was fighting evenly with him. Hell, there were even moments when Aokiji and Kizaru had the upper hand on WB.

What does that have to do with Jozu fighting equally with Aokiji and Marco and Vista being perfectly fine?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

1) Akainu never ran away from WB.

They stopped fighting which means that one of them fled the other, and it definitely wasn't Whitebeard.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

2) WB got a free shot on Akainu as well.

I'm aware of this. But it's not relevant to the current discussion.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Read the posts again and you'll understand.

Nope. Wanna explain or concede?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

What does that have to do with Jozu fighting equally with Aokiji and Marco and Vista being perfectly fine?

You brought up WB's heart attack being such a turning factor in favor of the marines, when that's not the case at all.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

They stopped fighting which means that one of them fled the other, and it definitely wasn't Whitebeard.

A lot of the war's fights were halted for various reasons. Doesn't mean one person had the advantage over the other.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

I'm aware of this. But it's not relevant to the current discussion.

Yes it is. You brought up Akainu getting a free shot on WB, and yet you don't do the same when WB had the opportunity. It tells you something when Oda resorts to giving WB a cheap shot to put Akainu down.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Nope. Wanna explain or concede?

There's nothing for me to concede. Look over the conversation again.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

You brought up WB's heart attack being such a turning factor in favor of the marines, when that's not the case at all.

And how does what you previously stated prove your point exactly?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

A lot of the war's fights were halted for various reasons. Doesn't mean one person had the advantage over the other.

Take a look at who you're talking about, you're talking about the radical Akainu.

He's not gonna flee from a fight if he's not losing.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Yes it is. You brought up Akainu getting a free shot on WB, and yet you don't do the same when WB had the opportunity.

Because we're discussing events that take place before Ace was even free from his sea stone cuffs so it's obviously not relevant.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It tells you something when Oda resorts to giving WB a cheap shot to put Akainu down.

Hahahaha. It tell you something when Oda needs to through in a heart attack to get WB injured, and to remove Jozu and temporarily Marco from the picture.

It tells you something when Oda needs to have WB injured with a big ass blade before jumping into the war.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

There's nothing for me to concede. Look over the conversation again.

Too bad it's not relevant. You problem realize that to hence why you don't want to elaborate on it.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Take a look at who you're talking about, you're talking about the radical Akainu.

He's not gonna flee from a fight if he's not losing.

My point exactly. You just contradicted yourself.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Because we're discussing events that take place before Ace was even free from his sea stone cuffs so it's obviously not relevant.

To quote your exact words, you said "Whitebeard Pirates were raping the Marines for the majority of the war". This obviously didn't happen, and I already explained why. You can harp on special circumstances all you want, but WB's side never showed any superiority over the marines+shichibukai.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Hahahaha. It tell you something when Oda needs to through in a heart attack to get WB injured, and to remove Jozu and temporarily Marco from the picture.

It tells you something when Oda needs to have WB injured with a big ass blade before jumping into the war.

Again, WB's side never had an advantage over the marines+shichibukai.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

My point exactly. You just contradicted yourself.

How?

I'm saying that Akainu did run away. :/

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

To quote your exact words, you said "Whitebeard Pirates were raping the Marines for the majority of the war". This obviously didn't happen, and I already explained why. You can harp on special circumstances all you want, but WB's side never showed any superiority over the marines+shichibukai.



Again, WB's side never had an advantage over the marines+shichibukai.

Which is why they breached the bay and the Marines fell back. No I'm talking about before Sengoku's plan was even brought into play.

[Slayerx]

when talking about who was winning and who was loosing, why is WB's heart attack relevant point to the pirates favor? WB is OLD and has declining health; it was handicap he had to deal with and entered this battle with... obviously over exerting himself like in a battle is gonna place a risk on his health getting worse... saying "what if WB did not have a heart attack" is like asking "What if Croc did not have a missing hand" or "what if Garp was 20 years younger". Having a heart attack was not random chance but something that was inevitable; if you go into a massive battle with poor health it WILL cause problems

Furtharmore if we want to talk about hypotheticals than Sengoku's and Grap's lack of action in this fight should be mentioned to how well the Marines were doing in this battle. Fact is at the end of the day Whitebeard is dead, Ace is dead, Jozu is incapacitated and the Whitebreard forces are in full retreat... meanwhile on the Marines side the only casualties are those of what is considered fodder while all 3 admrials, 4 schichbukai (excluding boa because she doing more harm than good by this point) sengoku and garp are still active... And these results happened WITHOUT Sengoku's and garp's real participation; these 2 are both characters who fight on the level of admirals (possibly higher). In the end the marines won without fully utilizing two of their most powerful cards while Whitebeard used everything he had and lost

You want to ask "what if Whitebeard did not have a heart attack?" How about we ask what would have happened if Sengoku and Garp put up more of an active effort in this battle. You think the heart attack was the turning point for the marines, but if that heart attack did not happened then all that might have meant that Sengoku and Garp might have actually needed to do some serious fighting. And frankly i think Sengoku and Garp could do a WHOLE lot more damage than one distracting heart attack.

[-Suigetsu-]

It's relevant because it not only landed a hole in WB's chest, it also got Jozu and temporarily Marco, out of the war. That's why it's relevant.

Also, Garp and Sengoku can't both be fighting in the war, they need to stand there and guard Ace.

You act like Garp and Sengoku's lack of participation is due to plot reasons or something, it's not. If they weren't there, Marco would have easily gotten Ace a long time ago.

Then there's of course Whitebeard having to hold back on his quakes because of his allies.

It's not one sided of course, things also happened to the Marines that sucked, just that the Pirates got the shorter end of the stick.

[Kallen4life]

Suigetsu here comes from la-la land


Akainu gets MAJOR points for tanking two (2) quake-fists and not losing consciousness



anyway nice ep, in anime adaptation thus Burgess can take a punch from Garp rather well .. tbh he didn't seem like that much in general .. on the other hand, BB only wants the best for his crew, so he's gotta be good

Coby got too much time =/ .. could've cut it 2x-2.5x .. but Shanks' rugged manliness made up for the crybaby tears


srsly digging Kizaru's lasers, can't get enough of that

[shankss]

WB pirates was owning Marines? Thats new to me.They had only the raw power but zero plan.All they managed to do was eliminating cannon fodders and dueling Admirals.

How did they set Ace free in first place? With unexpected help from total strangers.Crab-chan dig them the way in, Mister 3 aimlessly went on an espionage action and finally Luffy emotionally disqualified Garp for them.
Would like to see someone go up there and confront Garp if it wasnt for Luffy.

Also just to let you know, even if Whitebeard was younger, he'd have less experience (as the guy himself admitted that Sengoku was always tricking them with plans from the beginning to today) and Garp&Sengoku would be younger too.Sengoku&Garp combo is surely one of the strongest beings in OnePieceverse and two of the few people that can withstand legendary duels.

[-Suigetsu-]

Zero planning huh? You might as well outright call the pirates all a bunch of idiots then.

Clearly they had planning and strategy.

- Entering Marineford with coated ships to invade the bay and bypass the 50+ Marine Battleships.

- And keeping a coated ship hidden undersea as a trump card.

Whitebeard was able to keep up, strategy wise with Sengoku for the entire war. He easily saw through one of Sengoku's plans when he told the New World Captains to separate and go right and left.

You also seemed to be confused about the Pirates winning the war until the heart attack, with the Pirates being stronger than the Marines + Shichibukai alliance which are to very different things and the majority of your post being based on the latter.

The Pirates were winning because they were always pushing the Marines back, never the other way around. Deal with it.