Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One area where I see Sol's point, and might come to agree with it, is that Kyubey and his magical girl/witch system could represent the inevitable evil or corruption of real world human life.

He could represent all the dishonesty, all the subterfuge, all the natural disasters, and all the inescapable hard choices, that we encounter in life. He could represent how picture perfect solutions are rarely there to be had in life. You get power, but it comes at a cost. You heal a boy's hand, but it comes at a cost. You protect a friend, but it comes at a cost.

In real life, gaining power typically requires hard work, comparable to hunting witches in this anime's world perhaps.

In real life, healing a boy's hand might require burying yourself in scientific research and study, diligently searching for a solution, giving up on much of your social life.

You protect a friend, but that can take effort, and you still have to respect your friend's decisions...

I don't completely share Sol Falling's perspective here, but I do see some possible real world analogies here, and Kyubey representing a sort of inescapable downside to life.

I don't disagree with you here at all. I agree that QB wishes do in fact have an inescapable downside similar to life. I think QB wishes are the easier way(on surface) to try to accomplish something and that why they have such a drastic downside. Maybe if Sayaka had instead of just wishing to heal that boy's hand just struggled through it with him and taken the ups and downs that would accompany that she'd have turned out much happier in the end. He might never have played again but he might still have been able to find happiness in something else.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As I said, again, there is no aspect of 'the greater good' I am attributing to Madoka's motivations. Kyuubey is her enemy (in that he is bringing suffering to people she cares about), she wants to get rid of him--however, I think probably the only way it is possible for her to do so is to somehow fulfill his needs and get him away from here. The key difference between previous Madoka Magicas and the prospective predicted one is that the new Madoka will have a concrete goal and personal objective--she will not be fighting for goodness or the sake of others, she will be fighting for herself and the things most important to her. Madoka knows that turning into a witch and going into a rampage is unacceptable, and perhaps also knows that her own death is unacceptable to Homura. Rather than searching for some sort of unconceivable miracle solution to this dilemma, as Homura has struggled with, and is the precise sort of situation her mother earlier comforted and gave her advice about, it might be a sad necessity that in order to move forward she will have to work on loosening these requirements of 'perfectness' and abandon what's impossible.

No matter how you slice it Madoka will still be dying for QB's greater good even if she chooses to die for something else. The only Madoka we've seen that truly know the extents of what happened didn't feel happy about it at all. She didn't feel any pride in dying for sake of others but realized she'd died for the sake of QB which she didn't take well at all.

Also I don't believe Madoka's mother advice has much to do with this. That really only dealt with the events in that episode. As she said doing something bad might actually lead to good things. While being an adult means making mistakes it also means fixing your mistakes also.

[Triple_R]

Well, Madoka could conceivably wish to never become a witch...

This is a wish that no magical girl fooled by Kyubey would make (why would she?) but Madoka could make it.

Combine that with Homura's wish to protect Madoka, and Madoka should be spared both death and becoming a witch.

At that point, maybe being a magical girl in this world isn't so bad after all...

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, Madoka could conceivably wish to never become a witch...

This is a wish that no magical girl fooled by Kyubey would make (why would she?) but Madoka could make it.

Combine that with Homura's wish to protect Madoka, and Madoka should be spared both death and becoming a witch.

At that point, maybe being a magical girl in this world isn't so bad after all...

Depends on if Qb could or would grant such a wish. Even so we have to consider the possible downsides a wish like this would bring on. Eventually Madoka will probably have to watch Homura become a witch and have to kill her or kill her before she turns into one. She could spend the rest of her life killing witches who she'd know were actually just girls like she was. A entire lifetime if not eternity condemned to be part of a system she despises. Not so bad huh...

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kanon

*snip*

You know, after episode three, I was kinda rooting for a bad end, then as the showhad been running, I am sorta expecting and/or wanting something more like

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

The Butterfly Effect or Jojo part 6 aka Stone Ocean.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This quote in fact reinforces my position that Homura will be causing Madoka grief if she forces her to stay timid and powerless. Madoka has things she wants to protect. Ultimately, she will be willing to sacrifice and fight for them; and the reality may be that the Puella Magi contract is the only way to do that.

Homura is not "forcing" her to do anything. Don't forget that Madoka herself asked Homura to prevent her from being tricked by QB.

This is not about overcoming her fears and embracing her inner magical girl. This is about not falling for QB's prisoner dilemma. There is no way to win in this situation, UNLESS there is a third option.

Contracting is not the solution. As mentioned in previous timelines, Madoka will become the very thing she is trying to protect, which is WHY she asked for Homura to destroy her Soul Gem.

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, Madoka could conceivably wish to never become a witch...

This is a wish that no magical girl fooled by Kyubey would make (why would she?) but Madoka could make it.

Combine that with Homura's wish to protect Madoka, and Madoka should be spared both death and becoming a witch.

At that point, maybe being a magical girl in this world isn't so bad after all...

Well, one would hope if she were going to go that far she would wish that no magical girls would ever become a witch again. Though of course you then have to wonder what happens since that also means no more grief seeds. So when they have used up their energy and can't become a witch, then... ?

[Sackett]

I've done some thinking about it, and I think that Homura's best chance is to get Mami on her side.

That's the key.

Homura knows that Mami is a nice person at heart, and is unaware of a lot of the darker things about Kuybee, and what being a Magical Girl means. The key is to appeal to Mami's maternal instincts, and to Mami's desire to not be alone.

So here's how it would go after Homura goes back in time:

1. : Prevent Kuybee from making the early contract with Madoka
2. : Gather weapons
3. : Visit Mami: I see a few ways of handling it

A: Homura poses as a Magical Girl transferring into Mami's school. Homura explains her visit as just wanting to see if she and Mami can work together instead of being rivals. (Mami will of course be delighted- although probably also wary. If Homura gives her background as being sick and dying in the Hospital when Kuybee came to see her it would also help win some empathy from Mami.)

Homura acts as if hesitating before telling Mami that she found out Kuybee didn't tell them something important. Homura then reveals the truth about Soul Gems and having to be within 100 meters. This is something Homura could plausibly know without having to get into time travel. It can be tested by Mami by having one of them move 100 meters beyond their soul gem. It's also a way to shake Mami's faith in Kuybee without going all the way to revealing the truth about becoming witches and risking her deciding to go all murder suicide to escape a Fate Worse Than Death. Even with just this minor truth revealed, Mami is far less likely to support Madoka or Sayaka becoming Magical Girls, and of course, telling them about it before contracting makes them very unlikely to contract.

Then to finish it off Homura attempts to recruit Kyoko to help them against WPN, (plausible I think, Kyoko has a noble soul beneath that cynical exterior, she'll probably show up at least to help fight WPN). Meanwhile Homura, having won Mami's trust and helping her fight witches, begins dropping questions like: "Why do we need grief seeds to power up our soul gems?" "What happens if our Soul Gem goes dark?" and "What else has Kuybee not told us?" Eventually easing Mami into the truth (preferably after WPN) and hopefully avoiding a Mami Despair Event Horizon.

B: Homura tells Mami about the timetraveling, but in a way that appeals to Mami's motherly side. Keep the braids and glasses, knock on Mami's door, and when she opens Homura throws herself at Mami and grabs her in a big hug while crying about how glad she is to see her again. Then step back and say: "Oh yeah, you don't know me yet in this timeline, " and then introduce herself, "it's so good to see you again." Mami of course will be confused and ask who Homura is, Homura answers "You're the senpai who taught me how to be a Magical Girl." Then explain that Mami had saved her life from a witch, and that Homura was too scared to become a Magical Girl, but then Mami died fighting WPN so Homura wished she could go back in time and help Mami defeat WPN.

Then say that together, you and Mami got Kyoko to join you, and also recruited two new Magical Girls, Miki and Madoka. Then everything went wrong. Pause here and tell Mami that you want to tell her what happened, but that last time Mami found out she killed Kyoko and was going to kill you when Madoka then killed Mami. Ask Mami to promise not to do anything rash- then tell her that there weren't enough grief seeds to support 5 Magical Girls (thus establishing in Mami's mind that you don't want to recruit too big a group), so Miki didn't use any, and she turned into a witch. Witches are Magical Girls that don't get enough grief seeds. (I suppose at this point be ready to stop time and run, but being told something is a lot less shocking then watching it happen.)

Homura then admits she had to kill Miki-witch, and then explains that alt-Mami decided that dying as Magical Girls was better then becoming witches, so Mami killed Kyoko- Homura should phrase this with a defense of alt-Mami's actions, but tell current Mami that she needs to be strong so they can beat WPN, protect the people in the city, and figure out a way to defeat Kyubee, or at least prevent him from recruiting anymore magical girls. (By this point Mami will certainly be in shock and rather dazed).

Finish off by saying that without Mami and Kyoko, the veterans, Homura and Madoka didn't stand a chance against WPN, so Homura was sent back in time again because her wish hadn't come true yet. Homura proposes teaming up with Koyoko, just the three of them, against WPN. No doubt Mami will have a hard time accepting all this, but Mami isn't like Sayaka, so it's likely to put a lot of doubt into her mind about Kyubee and what to do. Mami probably won't believe it all at first, but over time as Homura has more opportunities to demonstrate the truth of what she's saying (the soul gem demonstration might come in handy here) I'd say that Homura has a fair to middling chance of getting Mami on her side. Especially if Homura keeps playing up the "I need you Mami-sempai, please take care of me" card, combined with promising not to leave Mami alone.

C: There are probably endless more variations, but the key is to get Mami on your side before the meet up with Madoka.

4. No matter what you then want to warn both Madoka and Sayaka against making a contract with Kyubee- "he tricks you" - before either of them makes a contract with him.
5. Keep Mami alive- if that means being friendly to her, do it- you need Mami's firepower to fight WPN
6. Also no matter what you want to attempt to recruit Kyoko before WPN too.
7. Plan on fighting WPN with the team of Kyoko, Mami, and Homura- thus giving you the greatest chance of success without involving Madoka.

Really, Homura you've got all the time in the world, you need to sit down and think a little bit about what the most likely routes are out of the maze, instead of just trying to bull through it.

Ironically, I think original timid geeky Homura would have a better chance of thinking this all through as opposed to Ice Queen Badass Homura who is so focused on her goal that she can't seem to think about the best way of achieving it.

Homura makes a lot more sense as a character now that we know she's just trying to act cold and badass instead of actually being that way. It explains some of the mistakes she's making.

[Shadow5YA]

Mami isn't going to help change fate. In timeline 2, Madoka, Mami, and Homura teamed up against Walpurgis Night, and Madoka turned into a Witch.

In the current timeline, Homura was hoping that Kyoko would make a difference because she was also a veteran, but never participated in Walpurgis Night before. Then Kyubey managed to play off of Kyoko's empathy, and Homura is alone again. She is not going to win on her own; she has tried that before.

Once again, the ending has to have Madoka finding a new option. Dying or becoming a Witch is unacceptable because it diminishe's the current Madoka's worth lower than Homura's and makes her equal to the past four failures Homura has witnessed. Homura is not the main protagonist of this series; the current Madoka is. Because the current Madoka is the star of the show, she has to make a decision, and it has to have a significance beyond what the previous Madokas have done.

[kaigan]

uh, i don't know if this one has been brought out before, please do correct me if i'm wrong. every time madoka wakes up from a weird dream, right before she opens her eyes, we see the back of her and then turning towards us. and then left with a close-up shot of her face. it happens so fast barely a split-second.

that said, i wonder if this has something to do with her previous selves "communicating" to her or possibly the adult madoka in the OP sequence attempting to speak to her but very weak, hence the static signals of the "lost memories?" i could offer no evidence yet though.

[hyperborealis]

What an outstanding discussion. Reading through everybody's posts today was just a feast.

I'm not going to be able to add too much: you guys have really said it all already.

On Triple R's "Love conquers all" meme, Kanon is right: "love has only led to tragedy so far." At this point, after ten episodes, one must conclude that is what the anime has to say about love. Even if there is some happy ending about which one could say, "See? Love conquers all!," it would not compensate or make up for all the suffering that has led up to it. The point of pairing love with tragedy is not to equate love with tragedy, or to say that love must lead to tragedy, but to point out the dark truth that good motives do not necessarily lead to good outcomes. What that means practically is that a person can affirm love only without regard to outcomes, as Kyoko does when she dies for sake of her love for Sayaka, and Homura does, when she embraces a Sisyphean cycle of perpetual defeat for the sake of her love for Madoka. The strength and courage necessary to uphold such love are extraordinary; that a person possesses them at all may itself be the most positive outcome the anime can conceive. Perhaps you will smile, but I think the last two episodes have been versions of a happy ending. In some times and places, Kyoko and Homura's choices have been the best outcome possible in those particular historical circumstances.

I find the existential logic behind Sol Falling's argument that Madoka will choose to become a Magical Girl completely compelling. Whatever Madoka chooses to do, she will choose to step forward to protect her friends, she will "shoulder the cost" of doing so, and she will make that choice consciously and deliberately. She will do that not idealistically or altruistically, but as an expression of her fundamental character. All that Sol Falling says about the nature of Madoka's decision is just pure gold.

Will Madoka choose to become a Magical Girl after all? The arguments on both sides are so good I am completely torn. Based on Kyoko's advice to Madoka that she should only consider becoming a MG should there "come a time when you'll have to fight no matter what," I have thought she would decide to do so. But I keep turning back to Slick Rick's points about the power inherent in ordinary humanity. Then I remember that right before Kyoko gives Madoka this piece of advice, she also says, ""Someone, who spends every day surrounded by a happy family, / who has such a convenient life.../ I wouldn't let someone like that become a Puella Magi just because she thinks she should." And here of course Kyoko is clearly talking about Madoka herself, who is precisely surrounded by a happy family. So I just don't know.

I am so looking forward to the next episode, if only to get past this wretched indeterminacy!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

People require things of moral or material value to even consider that they are living their lives meaningfully. Wanting to protect those things is nothing more than wanting to protect their own existence, and I think is only natural.

I do not see any conflict between this, and being altruistic, and in holding to moral ideals. If Madoka saves the city she still saves the city, just as she did in Timeline 1. The practical impact is the same. The greater good being served is the same. There is no moral ideal that we've seen Madoka state belief in that would need to be compromised by such a decision. The only difference would be that this time such a decision to save the city would be made with full awareness of what contracting with Kyubey entails. But that does nothing to negate any possible altruism or idealism behind such a decision. Indeed, it arguably raises the degree of both since the known personal costs of such a decision are now greater to the individual who makes it.

I do not see any basis whatsoever on the part of you and Hyperborealis for ruling out altruism or idealism as factors in Madoka's decision other than personal philosophical bias' on both of your parts (which you both have every right to, of course, but as other posters have said, I'd be careful about reading that into another person's fictional work).

Mind you, this does lead me to ask: What do both of you have against altruism? What's wrong with people sticking to their moral ideals if they can achieve the same end through doing so as they would through a more compromising approach, as would likely be the case here? It should be noted here that Madoka has never been about punishing villains, so it's not as if letting Kyubey get away without such punishment would be a clear case of Madoka compromising her moral ideals.

Superman might take it upon himself to risk his life to save an unknown child in danger,

And would that be wrong of Superman?

But I do not believe this can be expected of Madoka, nor should it be.

Expected or not, she would be serving the greater good by becoming a magical girl to save the city, insofar as a means is found to prevent her from becoming a witch afterwards, of course.

If Madoka will be donating energy to Kyuubey's 'Energy Fund' to get rid of him, I do not believe it will be for the sake of any of the actual good Kyuubey will be able to do with that energy, but rather because she wishes to stop Kyuubey and his system from threatening and causing suffering, to the people closest to her.

Probably not, but this wasn't a factor in the first timeline either.

The key difference between previous Madoka Magicas and the prospective predicted one is that the new Madoka will have a concrete goal and personal objective--she will not be fighting for goodness or the sake of others, she will be fighting for herself and the things most important to her.

I don't see where there's any real conflict here.

When Superman saves Metropolis from the latest threat of the day, is he not doing so both with the safety of Joe and Jane Average Citizen in mind, as well as his own friends and loved ones such as Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen?

You and Hyperborealis are raising a false and needless dichotomy here.

You can be fighting for goodness, and the sake of others, and for yourself, and for the things most important to you. Madoka is in a position to do all of that. There's no real hard moral choice here between the latter two and the former two (which Gen could easily set up, by the way, if he wanted to, so if he chooses not to, that is suggestive to me).

Rather than searching for some sort of unconceivable miracle solution to this dilemma, as Homura has struggled with, and is the precise sort of situation her mother earlier comforted and gave her advice about, it might be a sad necessity that in order to move forward she will have to work on loosening these requirements of 'perfectness' and abandon what's impossible.

1st Timeline Madoka was also willing to loosen the requirements of pragmatically perfect solutions too, as she was willing to die to save her city, and the people in that city that she loved and cared for.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

On Triple R's "Love conquers all" meme, Kanon is right: "love has only led to tragedy so far." At this point, after ten episodes, one must conclude that is what the anime has to say about love. Even if there is some happy ending about which one could say, "See? Love conquers all!," it would not compensate or make up for all the suffering that has led up to it.

I disagree. If love is ultimately what enables this nasty situation to resolve itself in a largely positive manner, then that speaks well of love's overall impact on the broader narrative.

I find the existential logic behind Sol Falling's argument that Madoka will choose to become a Magical Girl completely compelling. Whatever Madoka chooses to do, she will choose to step forward to protect her friends, she will "shoulder the cost" of doing so, and she will make that choice consciously and deliberately. She will do that not idealistically or altruistically, but as an expression of her fundamental character.

Madoka's fundamental character is idealistic and altruistic. Madoka showed remarkable idealism and altruism simply in how she treated new classmate Homura at the start of Episode 10.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Sackett

I've done some thinking about it, and I think that Homura's best chance is to get Mami on her side.

That's the key.

Homura knows that Mami is a nice person at heart, and is unaware of a lot of the darker things about Kuybee, and what being a Magical Girl means. The key is to appeal to Mami's maternal instincts, and to Mami's desire to not be alone.

So here's how it would go after Homura goes back in time:

1. : Prevent Kuybee from making the early contract with Madoka
2. : Gather weapons
3. : Visit Mami: I see a few ways of handling it

A: Homura poses as a Magical Girl transferring into Mami's school. Homura explains her visit as just wanting to see if she and Mami can work together instead of being rivals. (Mami will of course be delighted- although probably also wary. If Homura gives her background as being sick and dying in the Hospital when Kuybee came to see her it would also help win some empathy from Mami.)

Homura acts as if hesitating before telling Mami that she found out Kuybee didn't tell them something important. Homura then reveals the truth about Soul Gems and having to be within 100 meters. This is something Homura could plausibly know without having to get into time travel. It can be tested by Mami by having one of them move 100 meters beyond their soul gem. It's also a way to shake Mami's faith in Kuybee without going all the way to revealing the truth about becoming witches and risking her deciding to go all murder suicide to escape a Fate Worse Than Death. Even with just this minor truth revealed, Mami is far less likely to support Madoka or Sayaka becoming Magical Girls, and of course, telling them about it before contracting makes them very unlikely to contract.

Then to finish it off Homura attempts to recruit Kyoko to help them against WPN, (plausible I think, Kyoko has a noble soul beneath that cynical exterior, she'll probably show up at least to help fight WPN). Meanwhile Homura, having won Mami's trust and helping her fight witches, begins dropping questions like: "Why do we need grief seeds to power up our soul gems?" "What happens if our Soul Gem goes dark?" and "What else has Kuybee not told us?" Eventually easing Mami into the truth (preferably after WPN) and hopefully avoiding a Mami Despair Event Horizon.

B: Homura tells Mami about the timetraveling, but in a way that appeals to Mami's motherly side. Keep the braids and glasses, knock on Mami's door, and when she opens Homura throws herself at Mami and grabs her in a big hug while crying about how glad she is to see her again. Then step back and say: "Oh yeah, you don't know me yet in this timeline, " and then introduce herself, "it's so good to see you again." Mami of course will be confused and ask who Homura is, Homura answers "You're the senpai who taught me how to be a Magical Girl." Then explain that Mami had saved her life from a witch, and that Homura was too scared to become a Magical Girl, but then Mami died fighting WPN so Homura wished she could go back in time and help Mami defeat WPN.

Then say that together, you and Mami got Kyoko to join you, and also recruited two new Magical Girls, Miki and Madoka. Then everything went wrong. Pause here and tell Mami that you want to tell her what happened, but that last time Mami found out she killed Kyoko and was going to kill you when Madoka then killed Mami. Ask Mami to promise not to do anything rash- then tell her that there weren't enough grief seeds to support 5 Magical Girls (thus establishing in Mami's mind that you don't want to recruit too big a group), so Miki didn't use any, and she turned into a witch. Witches are Magical Girls that don't get enough grief seeds. (I suppose at this point be ready to stop time and run, but being told something is a lot less shocking then watching it happen.)

Homura then admits she had to kill Miki-witch, and then explains that alt-Mami decided that dying as Magical Girls was better then becoming witches, so Mami killed Kyoko- Homura should phrase this with a defense of alt-Mami's actions, but tell current Mami that she needs to be strong so they can beat WPN, protect the people in the city, and figure out a way to defeat Kyubee, or at least prevent him from recruiting anymore magical girls. (By this point Mami will certainly be in shock and rather dazed).

Finish off by saying that without Mami and Kyoko, the veterans, Homura and Madoka didn't stand a chance against WPN, so Homura was sent back in time again because her wish hadn't come true yet. Homura proposes teaming up with Koyoko, just the three of them, against WPN. No doubt Mami will have a hard time accepting all this, but Mami isn't like Sayaka, so it's likely to put a lot of doubt into her mind about Kyubee and what to do. Mami probably won't believe it all at first, but over time as Homura has more opportunities to demonstrate the truth of what she's saying (the soul gem demonstration might come in handy here) I'd say that Homura has a fair to middling chance of getting Mami on her side. Especially if Homura keeps playing up the "I need you Mami-sempai, please take care of me" card, combined with promising not to leave Mami alone.

C: There are probably endless more variations, but the key is to get Mami on your side before the meet up with Madoka.

4. No matter what you then want to warn both Madoka and Sayaka against making a contract with Kyubee- "he tricks you" - before either of them makes a contract with him.
5. Keep Mami alive- if that means being friendly to her, do it- you need Mami's firepower to fight WPN
6. Also no matter what you want to attempt to recruit Kyoko before WPN too.
7. Plan on fighting WPN with the team of Kyoko, Mami, and Homura- thus giving you the greatest chance of success without involving Madoka.

Really, Homura you've got all the time in the world, you need to sit down and think a little bit about what the most likely routes are out of the maze, instead of just trying to bull through it.

Ironically, I think original timid geeky Homura would have a better chance of thinking this all through as opposed to Ice Queen Badass Homura who is so focused on her goal that she can't seem to think about the best way of achieving it.

Homura makes a lot more sense as a character now that we know she's just trying to act cold and badass instead of actually being that way. It explains some of the mistakes she's making.

Here is a big question for you: Madoka sees MG as a big party. Without witness a death, it's very hard to understand the risk. To befriend Mami, Homura needs to keep Mami happy. A happy Mami makes becoming MG more party-like in the eye of Madoka. Without enough caution, Madoka assumes number is the strength. If a single arrow is easily broken, how about getting three together?

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by herbert

Here is a big question for you: Madoka sees MG as a big party. Without witness a death, it's very hard to understand the risk. To befriend Mami, Homura needs to keep Mami happy. A happy Mami makes becoming MG more party-like in the eye of Madoka. Without enough caution, Madoka assumes number is the strength. If a single arrow is easily broken, how about getting three together?

It seems as if the system is rigged against Co-operation , something that seems to feature prominently in Madoka's world view vis a vis Puella Magi. I suspect that , should she be forced to make a Wish this time loop , her wish would center around rewriting the whole system . Assuming that Kyubey was correct in asserting that Madoka's powers were immense , and assuming that the theory that Wishes are granted using the innate Power of the Puella Magi in question, I suspect that she JUST MIGHT be able to pull that off.

Normally , this would be a Deus Ex Machina , by any measures , but in this circumstance , there seems to be adequate foreshadowing opening up this possibility.

Secondly , might Homura desperately emulate Kyouko in taking out WN? It's risky , there's no certainty that such a manuever would work against a Witch of WN caliber. Where did Kyouko learned something like that anyway ? Or do the Wishes and will of Experienced Puella Magis come true , at a certain price and strain to the soul gem, depending on the magnitude of the Wish?

[Sol Falling]

lol, um, okay. Taking it upon myself to explain existentialism or a rejection of idealism/altruism as standards to live by might not be something I have the self-coherency or intellectual awareness to really accomplish effectively, but lemme try to work through this regardless.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I do not see any conflict between this, and being altruistic, and in holding to moral ideals. If Madoka saves the city she still saves the city, just as she did in Timeline 1. The practical impact is the same. The greater good being served is the same. There is no moral ideal that we've seen Madoka state belief in that would need to be compromised by such a decision. The only difference would be that this time such a decision to save the city would be made with full awareness of what contracting with Kyubey entails. But that does nothing to negate any possible altruism or idealism behind such a decision. Indeed, it arguably raises the degree of both since the known personal costs of such a decision are now greater to the individual who makes it.

Practical effect or objective result or whatever, the main point I have kept bringing up is Madoka's motivations. Whether or not Madoka ends up protecting the rest of the town is irrelevant, because those are not what she would truly be willing to give or risk her life for--are not the integral things to Madoka's happiness and existence. To put it another way: if there were no friends, no family, no things of absolute value to Madoka's personal feelings in that town, then there is also no way she would (or should) sacrifice her own life/feelings to protect it. In this case it just so happens that the threat Walpurgis represents to Mitakihara in general incidentally coincides with the threat it represents to Madoka's most important things. However, it is only because of those important things inherent to Madoka's existence that it is necessary for Madoka to step forward.

I do not see any basis whatsoever on the part of you and Hyperborealis for ruling out altruism or idealism as factors in Madoka's decision other than personal philosophical bias' on both of your parts (which you both have every right to, of course, but as other posters have said, I'd be careful about reading that into another person's fictional work).

There has been a whole lot of thematic commentary in this show about i.e. not confusing gratitude with responsibility, making clear whether your actions are for others' or your own sake, staying true to just the things most important to you, discarding hindrances, not letting oneself be moved by a false sense of guilt/duty instead of the most important things, etc. etc. etc. Very nearly all of the girls demonstrate this philosophy in one aspect or another, and in fact I have felt that it is a very key part in how they have each been characterized as very real and human and thoughtful. The dilemmas at hand, the questions these girls are dealing with, genuinely involve their very lives and existences. The foundation I and (if I may be so pretentious as to submit) Hyperborealis are speaking from is that things like 'ideals' and 'altruism' have no place determining that for people.

Or to put it better: the world is not such a nice place that ideals or altruism always mean something. If it's your life and fundamental capacity for happiness on the line, then you better build it on something a bit more solid, lest you start to break or do a half-assed job once reality sets in (or alternatively, like Kyouko said, lest you make light of the struggles and misfortune of others, who might have had no choice but to shoulder your difficulties).

Mind you, this does lead me to ask: What do both of you have against altruism? What's wrong with people sticking to their moral ideals if they can achieve the same end through doing so as they would through a more compromising approach, as would likely be the case here? It should be noted here that Madoka has never been about punishing villains, so it's not as if letting Kyubey get away without such punishment would be a clear case of Madoka compromising her moral ideals.

Well let's see. Here's an explicit this-timeline example for you, then. Do you think Madoka should accept the deaths of Mami, Sayaka, and Kyouko? They are 'victims' of Kyuubey's plots, certainly, and definitely people Madoka cares about on some level. Do you not feel that accepting their ends in this world is a compromise of Madoka's moral ideals and feelings?

But I suppose Hyperborealis and I might feel that such misfortunes in life might be inevitabilities, or that it is sometimes impossible to move the universe despite our heartfelt feelings. That this is the nature of human existence I feel is pretty important to recognize, because if things like ideals or altruism are committed to lightly, the potential for damage from the betrayal of expectations in response to those feelings can also be pretty negative (to be an idealist at first might also be one of the most direct paths to becoming a cynic, after all :P).

And would that be wrong of Superman?

Superman is Superman. He can do what he wants, but that doesn't make him or his values a model for all humans to live by.

Expected or not, she would be serving the greater good by becoming a magical girl to save the city, insofar as a means is found to prevent her from becoming a witch afterwards, of course.

However, as for Madoka, that would be merely by accident, because at heart, the greater good has very little to do with what either she or the viewers truly care about.

Probably not, but this wasn't a factor in the first timeline either.

I don't see where there's any real conflict here.

When Superman saves Metropolis from the latest threat of the day, is he not doing so both with the safety of Joe and Jane Average Citizen in mind, as well as his own friends and loved ones such as Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen?

You and Hyperborealis are raising a false and needless dichotomy here.

You can be fighting for goodness, and the sake of others, and for yourself, and for the things most important to you. Madoka is in a position to do all of that. There's no real hard moral choice here between the latter two and the former two (which Gen could easily set up, by the way, if he wanted to, so if he chooses not to, that is suggestive to me).

I don't really talk about a choice here, so much as Madoka's real motivations. So far as I've watched of the show, Madoka's 'choice' has already been made very clear. She has heeded Mami's, Sayaka's, Kyouko's, Homura's advice that she should not just throw her life away for the sake of mere obligations or 'correctness'. Rather, she should only try to protect (and only if she has something to protect in the first place--!) the things which are truly important to her.

'Goodness', and 'the sake of others', don't really play into that, Superman's case aside. Frankly, if it did truly matter for Madoka, she would have moved much, much more earlier. It is one thing if idealism really is the most important thing to your life (i.e. like what became of Sayaka) but in Madoka's case. and also (I believe) for most people, it is only natural that that would be something much more personal and closer to home.

The dichotomy we are probably emphasising here is probably just about things really worth trading your life for--i.e., the very first, fundamental premise of this show's story.

1st Timeline Madoka was also willing to loosen the requirements of pragmatically perfect solutions too, as she was willing to die to save her city, and the people in that city that she loved and cared for.

I suppose perhaps I should have clarified/responded to this idea you brought up earlier, except at the time I still wasn't quite sure which distinction you were making. No, I am indeed not talking about 'pragmatically perfect' solutions, but 'idealistic' ones. In timeline one, Madoka's actions are morally 'perfect' and 'correct' because she is dying for the sake of others and some greater cause out there. In timeline five, Madoka's actions are (prospectively) morally 'wrong' because she accepts and compromises with her enemy Kyuubey, who has caused her friends suffering. Madoka's only motivation for nevertheless moving forward then becomes because it is a necessity to protect the things which represent her own personal happiness--i.e. it really isn't about the greater good or any sort of idealism, only what is important to her..

Madoka's fundamental character is idealistic and altruistic. Madoka showed remarkable idealism and altruism simply in how she treated new classmate Homura at the start of Episode 10.

Madoka certainly possesses idealism and altruism at some level in her character. I would very much hesitate to attribute every sort of good or kindness as concepts under those umbrellas, though, as you seem to be doing. Showing friendliness and encouragement to a new transfer student has nothing to do with ideals or altruism. That kind of attitude merely involves having a positive outlook on life (and, if I may stretch this, human existences); so while I would agree that this is a core part of Madoka's character, it certainly does not need to be attached to any sort of morality.

[Shadow5YA]

Not sure where to post this other than here:

Spoiler for Puella Magi stats:

Spoiler for Key:

Starting at top, clockwise
Attack Power
Speed
Stamina
Magical Power
Technical
Mental
Special Abilities

I just took this from another forum, so I'm not sure where its origins lie.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I do not see any conflict between this, and being altruistic, and in holding to moral ideals. If Madoka saves the city she still saves the city, just as she did in Timeline 1. The practical impact is the same. The greater good being served is the same. There is no moral ideal that we've seen Madoka state belief in that would need to be compromised by such a decision. The only difference would be that this time such a decision to save the city would be made with full awareness of what contracting with Kyubey entails. But that does nothing to negate any possible altruism or idealism behind such a decision. Indeed, it arguably raises the degree of both since the known personal costs of such a decision are now greater to the individual who makes it.

I do not see any basis whatsoever on the part of you and Hyperborealis for ruling out altruism or idealism as factors in Madoka's decision other than personal philosophical bias' on both of your parts (which you both have every right to, of course, but as other posters have said, I'd be careful about reading that into another person's fictional work).

Idealism and altruism for their own sake are abstractions, and the pursuit of them is a romance, a fantasy divorced from the complications of actual lives, costs, and consequences. The paradigmatic example of such a fantasy in the anime is of course the mahou shoujo herself. She is, as Madoka says of Sayaka, the person who "wanted to become a hero of justice." But the anime is about nothing else than showing us the downside of such naive idealism, or, as Homura grimly says, "the truth behind what you admired so much." To use your words, I do not see any basis whatsoever on your part for failing to see this aspect of the drama. It is truly basic.

On this subject, may I recommend Max Weber's essay, Politics as a Vocation? I think it will help you understand the limits of idealism and altruism in relation to actual politics. [You might begin reading toward the end, with the paragraph beginning, "The final result of political action often, no, even regularly..."]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mind you, this does lead me to ask: What do both of you have against altruism? What's wrong with people sticking to their moral ideals if they can achieve the same end through doing so as they would through a more compromising approach, as would likely be the case here? It should be noted here that Madoka has never been about punishing villains, so it's not as if letting Kyubey get away without such punishment would be a clear case of Madoka compromising her moral ideals.

I am as sympathetic as you are to altruism. I am sure whatever Madoka decides we will be able to understand her actions altruistically. But altruism is not the point--it is not the verb, but the direct object that matters, as far as altruism itself is concerned. And I don't think, speaking simply of the given character development we have seen with Madoka so far, that altruism in the abstract has been a part of her motivations. Where do we see her caring for humanity in the abstract? or as a philosophic principle?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see where there's any real conflict here.

When Superman saves Metropolis from the latest threat of the day, is he not doing so both with the safety of Joe and Jane Average Citizen in mind, as well as his own friends and loved ones such as Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen?

You and Hyperborealis are raising a false and needless dichotomy here.

You can be fighting for goodness, and the sake of others, and for yourself, and for the things most important to you. Madoka is in a position to do all of that. There's no real hard moral choice here between the latter two and the former two (which Gen could easily set up, by the way, if he wanted to, so if he chooses not to, that is suggestive to me).

What you say can be true, but isn't necessarily true. I think the sad story of Sayaka is meant precisely to illustrate a) the pitfalls of naive altruism and b) the contradiction between wanting good for another person and wanting good for yourself. As Sayaka says, "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. If love is ultimately what enables this nasty situation to resolve itself in a largely positive manner, then that speaks well of love's overall impact on the broader narrative.

So, Triple R, you are going to build your love-bower on a pile of bodies? I suppose the view is good, but the smell?

Honestly, you really need to think this over. Nothing makes up for injustice, Triple R. The death of an individual is the death of a world. That you think a happy ending could compensate for this...Look. Please think this over again.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Madoka's fundamental character is idealistic and altruistic. Madoka showed remarkable idealism and altruism simply in how she treated new classmate Homura at the start of Episode 10.

Therefore we can and should dispense with abstract discussions of morality and focus on Madoka's character instead.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

What you say can be true, but isn't necessarily true. I think the sad story of Sayaka is meant precisely to illustrate a) the pitfalls of naive altruism and b) the contradiction between wanting good for another person and wanting good for yourself. As Sayaka says, "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

Sayaka was not altruistic. There is enough evidence to suggest that she wanted Kyousuke to return her affection for the wish she made. An altruistic person is one who helps others with complete disregard for themselves.

I don't believe any character in this story is completely altruistic, because all of the girls have had some concern for themselves at some point. Altruism in itself is an unrealistic philosophic principle. People need to learn when to give and take. If all people do is give and never take, they will eventually run out of things to give sooner, which defeats the principle of altruism.


Philosophy aside, I do not think Madoka will die or become a Witch this time. This is not just about love, but the distribution of screentime. The fact that the current timeline's Madoka has had nine episodes worth of exposure and development while the previous Madokas have had only a segment of a single episode implies that the current Madoka has greater significance. Should this Madoka die or become a Witch after defeating Walpurgis Night again, she will be reduced to the same level as her previous selves and as just one of Homura's many failures. She must make a decision that will lead to an outcome different from the four in episode 10.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Idealism and altruism for their own sake are abstractions, and the pursuit of them is a romance, a fantasy divorced from the complications of actual lives, costs, and consequences. The paradigmatic example of such a fantasy in the anime is of course the mahou shoujo herself. She is, as Madoka says of Sayaka, the person who "wanted to become a hero of justice." But the anime is about nothing else than showing us the downside of such naive idealism, or, as Homura grimly says, "the truth behind what you admired so much." To use your words, I do not see any basis whatsoever on your part for failing to see this aspect of the drama. It is truly basic.

On this subject, may I recommend Max Weber's essay, Politics as a Vocation? I think it will help you understand the limits of idealism and altruism in relation to actual politics. [You might begin reading toward the end, with the paragraph beginning, "The final result of political action often, no, even regularly..."]

I won't go into further detail on morality, but I think "doing the right thing" is certainly a major theme.

Also, requiring someone to read an outside text is to prove your point is kind of an extravagant and carefully disguised method of condescension. If we're going to have a discussion on this forum, it should be the partaker's responsibility to bring in obscure references and new information, otherwise logic and the show in question should be the only information necessary for discussion.

Also you conveniently ignore that Sayaka does not have "altruistic" motives at all. It's hinted at several times throughout the progression of the series, that each mahou shoujo has explicitly SELFISH motives for their actions, even if they themselves don't want to believe it or if it isn't readily apparent. For Sayaka her motives were to secure the love of of Kamijou and fighting for her shallow notion of justice, something which is quickly deconstructed with her meeting on the train with the two salary men.

I am as sympathetic as you are to altruism. I am sure whatever Madoka decides we will be able to understand her actions altruistically. But altruism is not the point--it is not the verb, but the direct object that matters, as far as altruism itself is concerned. And I don't think, speaking simply of the given character development we have seen with Madoka so far, that altruism in the abstract has been a part of her motivations. Where do we see her caring for humanity in the abstract? or as a philosophic principle?

Madoka has demonstrated significant effort in "doing the right thing." Someone a few threads mentioned this a while back, but Madoka is definitely a subscriber to virtue ethics. Her actions are determinant of the individual she becomes, and she prizes above all, her propensity to become a "good" individual.

What you say can be true, but isn't necessarily true. I think the sad story of Sayaka is meant precisely to illustrate a) the pitfalls of naive altruism and b) the contradiction between wanting good for another person and wanting good for yourself. As Sayaka says, "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

That's Sayaka's shallow analysis and very biased. Luckily, her words are hardly law.

So, Triple R, you are going to build your love-bower on a pile of bodies? I suppose the view is good, but the smell?

Honestly, you really need to think this over. Nothing makes up for injustice, Triple R. The death of an individual is the death of a world. That you think a happy ending could compensate for this...Look. Please think this over again.

Obviously we aim to diminish injustice wherever possible, but you ignore the fact that injustice has already been done. The only thing Madoka can do now is damage control and minimizing further harm. Also all instances of "love" previously could arguably have been forms of "incomplete" love; Love which is ruled by circumstance and convenience. So far, Madoka has demonstrated caring for even individuals who are enemies. I think there's a pretty big difference between Madoka and any of the other mahou shoujo so far.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Sayaka was not altruistic. There is enough evidence to suggest that she wanted Kyousuke to return her affection for the wish she made. An altruistic person is one who helps others with complete disregard for themselves.

I don't believe any character in this story is completely altruistic, because all of the girls have had some concern for themselves at some point. Altruism in itself is an unrealistic philosophic principle. People need to learn when to give and take. If all people do is give and never take, they will eventually run out of things to give sooner, which defeats the principle of altruism.

Unless a certain mahou shoujo's potential to love is so great, that she never "runs out" of love?

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by herbert

Here is a big question for you: Madoka sees MG as a big party. Without witness a death, it's very hard to understand the risk. To befriend Mami, Homura needs to keep Mami happy. A happy Mami makes becoming MG more party-like in the eye of Madoka. Without enough caution, Madoka assumes number is the strength. If a single arrow is easily broken, how about getting three together?

Which is why Homura needs to get Mami on her side as opposing the recruitment of new magical girls.

One option is the full truth about the connection between magical girls and witches- if she can get Mami to believe it.

The other option is just to reveal the fact that the Soul Gem is your actual soul. That's a pretty big negative towards becoming a magical girl (which is why Kyubee makes sure not to mention it).

I can't help but feel you didn't actually read my previous post as I specifically address this issue.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by taofd

Also, requiring someone to read an outside text is to prove your point is kind of an extravagant and carefully disguised method of condescension. If we're going to have a discussion on this forum, it should be the partaker's responsibility to bring in obscure references and new information, otherwise logic and the show in question should be the only information necessary for discussion.

No. I did not in any way condescend to Triple_R; I suggested to him a text that I found very helpful in constructing my own thinking on the general subject. As outside reading, not directly about Madoka Magica, I left it as a hyperlink. That still seems to me appropriate.

I recommend books to my friends all the time, taofd. I do so in the spirit of shared intellectual excitement, respect, and fellow feeling. If you can only understand that as condescension, then really, so much the worse for you.