Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[piperz]

Im quite fascinated to how people replied to this topic and i find amusing just reading them. inb4 my response to this topic may have been very late but oh well better late than never. Ive read up to page 20 of this thread so i might be putting someone else's opinion into mine.
imo Lelouch lived at the end of the story. Let me recall something on ep. 24
"I'm sincerely glad that you recall Lelouch. Now go on, hurry! Just make sure you'll come back. That will make me "smile", Ok?" C.C. said when Kallen tried to intercept Lelouch while trying to leave the Avalon. At the end, C.C. smiled while doing a monolouge and even mentioning Lelouch's name at the end of her sentence. Meaning to say that Lelouch was alive.
Regarding the code thingy. I bet C.C. gave away his code to Lelouch. She mentioned something about the price that he is going to pay is probably immortality, the curse of eternal life. Which is also the reason why the Nun who lived as an immortal being wanted C.C. to take her place and so she stabbed C.C. which explains the blood around C.C. and so this must be the only way to activate the code. Just like when when Charles stole V.V.'s code, there was a proof to this just rewatch C.C.'s world. He was first subjected to Lelouch's geass power and managed to ordering Charles to kill himself but this was what actually Charles had been anticipating for.
So, C.C. gave her code to Lelouch
Lelouch got stabbed and died
Code activated
oh hail immortal Lelouch
By taking C.C.'s part, he will then grant every person a geass. Like he what he said to Suzaku that Geass is like a wish. He was totally aware of the outcome.

epic ending!

[GundamFan0083]

That's an interesting theory.
Unfortunately, Okouchi threw the baby out with the bathwater and declared Lelouch dead in the October 2008 issue of Continue #42.

He's dead as fried chicken until Sunrise says otherwise, and don't worry too much, Sunrise has a tendancy to resurrect dead characters.
I highly doubt Lelouch is any exception to that rule.

[Lost Cause]

That and Taniguchi said he wouldn't do another CG with Lelouch in it. Funny but there is a character in Renya that bears a strong resemblence to Lelouch!
And the new "side story" supposedly takes place in 2017, I have a feeling Lelouch/Zero will be making an appearence again!

[GundamFan0083]

Yep, you're correct Lost Cause.
This guy definitely looks like Lelouch (from the actual Renya of the Dark manga):

[Hooves]

o.o... I actually thought that was a Lelouch image, but the dialogue completely changed my view (then I saw what you typed )

[Roloko vi Britannia]

I haven't been keeping up with Renya since chapter 2 or 3, but did they say what the Lelouch's look-a-like name was yet??

[Lost Cause]

In regards to the Lelouch look-a-like and the actual character, you don't kill the sacred cow! Especially if you don't want to alienate the fan base!
I still say there will be a sequel of some sort, one day, but till then I'm going to enjoy watching Akito of the Ruined Nation, if it ever gets out!

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Hooves

o.o... I actually thought that was a Lelouch image, but the dialogue completely changed my view (then I saw what you typed )

I did a double take when I first read the manga.
For a moment I thought maybe they'd tell us who this Lelouch clone actually was.
I'm begining to wonder if perhaps Lelouch (from the anime) was in fact a clone of this character in the manga.
I keep thinking back to the Geass cult and all the clones they had there.
Maybe Nunnally ISN'T Lelouch's real sister and Rolo really is his brother in a clone sort of way.
That would certainly put a spin on the events of Episode 25 now wouldn't it?
What if the Lelouch that died was in fact a clone with all of Zero/Lelouch's memories?
There's a twist for you.
Remember, Emperor Lelouch had access to ALL of the Geass file data AND all of the Code-R project data.
What was in that information?
We aren't ever told.

Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia

I haven't been keeping up with Renya since chapter 2 or 3, but did they say what the Lelouch's look-a-like name was yet??

No...Taniguichi is teasing the heck out of us and not telling...the punk.

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

In regards to the Lelouch look-a-like and the actual character, you don't kill the sacred cow! Especially if you don't want to alienate the fan base!
I still say there will be a sequel of some sort, one day, but till then I'm going to enjoy watching Akito of the Ruined Nation, if it ever gets out!

Agreed, you don't chop the tree down after picking a few apples, and Code Geass has only produced a small amount of fruit.
I see a slow but steady Gundamization of Code Geass over the next few years (if everything in Japan gets fixed, which I pray to God it does).
Can't wait for Akito, but even the manga is having problems right now.
It would seem a legal battle is brewing.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I did a double take when I first read the manga.
For a moment I thought maybe they'd tell us who this Lelouch clone actually was.
I'm begining to wonder if perhaps Lelouch (from the anime) was in fact a clone of this character in the manga.
I keep thinking back to the Geass cult and all the clones they had there.
Maybe Nunnally ISN'T Lelouch's real sister and Rolo really is his brother in a clone sort of way.
That would certainly put a spin on the events of Episode 25 now wouldn't it?
What if the Lelouch that died was in fact a clone with all of Zero/Lelouch's memories?
There's a twist for you.
Remember, Emperor Lelouch had access to ALL of the Geass file data AND all of the Code-R project data.
What was in that information?
We aren't ever told.

That would defiantly give fans who always believed that Lelouch survived that last moment in R2 something to hope for.

[Xander]

Not that there's anything concrete supporting such an idea yet, but it's good enough for speculation at least.

We've been all over most of this before...the behind-the-scenes anime industry works in mysterious ways, to say the least, and sometimes what seems the most obvious choice from outside isn't what actually happens in reality. There is, after all, more than one way to make money and we're still in the dark about what, if any, internal factors and decisions are also important.

As for episode 25 itself, I suppose it's worth mentioning I still think this was a very well directed and produced episode, no doubt, regardless of other criticisms that can be raised against the events involved.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

What if the Lelouch that died was in fact a clone with all of Zero/Lelouch's memories?
There's a twist for you.
Remember, Emperor Lelouch had access to ALL of the Geass file data AND all of the Code-R project data.

That's an interesting theory, but I think it would be hard to pull off in terms of character development. I mean, why would Lelouch do that? He wanted to die, and even without that, creating another human being, giving it his memories and then basically letting it pay for his sins would be a bit twisted even for him (and it probably wouldn't go over well with his pride, either). If Lelouch had felt that he needed to sick around, it would have made more sense for him to try one of the other "paths" he spoke of in Mutuality; and Schneizel should be able to handle most problems, anyway.

If Lelouch were to randomly come back from the dead, think I prefer the "he died but then his Code which shouldn't have existed activated and he decided that life just kind of hated him" theory. Though clones are always fun, and you never know what Sunrise might come up with. Omg, maybe Clovis cloned himself and went to tour the world before things went to hell, and now he's out there somewhere, selling bikinis! ...All right, all right, I'll back go into my fangirl corner now.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That's an interesting theory, but I think it would be hard to pull off in terms of character development. I mean, why would Lelouch do that? He wanted to die, and even without that, creating another human being, giving it his memories and then basically letting it pay for his sins would be a bit twisted even for him (and it probably wouldn't go over well with his pride, either). If Lelouch had felt that he needed to sick around, it would have made more sense for him to try one of the other "paths" he spoke of in Mutuality; and Schneizel should be able to handle most problems, anyway.

If Lelouch were to randomly come back from the dead, think I prefer the "he died but then his Code which shouldn't have existed activated and he decided that life just kind of hated him" theory. Though clones are always fun, and you never know what Sunrise might come up with. Omg, maybe Clovis cloned himself and went to tour the world before things went to hell, and now he's out there somewhere, selling bikinis! ...All right, all right, I'll back go into my fangirl corner now.

Yeah I know it's just a crazy theory.
But you know how Sunrise can be...Mu la flaga anyone?

Maybe Clovis did clone himself, and he and Lelouch are off starting a Rock a Band! The Bad Boys of Britannia!

Spoiler for large file:

Personally I don't put anything past Sunrise or Taniguichi now that I've gotten to see a glimpse of his version of Code Geass in the Renya manga.
He clearly views the power of Geass as a more powerful supernatural force than Okouchi did as evident in what a "true" Nightmare is and the curse which afflicts Renya.

We don't know how Codes were first formed either.
Perhaps episode 25 was a glimpse into Lelouch acquiring a Code to atone for his sins (not Charles' Code or CC's, I mean perhaps Lelouch was cursed with one in C's world by God when Charles had him by the throat).
There are so many possibilities in this story and so many turns that Episode 25 could be guided towards and still make sense in a sequel.
I know some of the die-hard fans don't want to see Lelouch come back, but the manga is already shooting that wish out of the water with the mysterious man (even if he has absolutely no relation to Lelouch, he's still a Char style clone).

Can't wait for Akito of the Ruined Country, it ought to be interesting.

[Lost Cause]

GundamFan0083; You mentioned something about a legal battle, would you please tell us more?
Nogitsune; Ill bet good money that Clovis is on a beach somewhere (or his clone) waiting for his chance to make a comeback!

[GundamFan0083]

I'll post the story in the manga thread.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I know some of the die-hard fans don't want to see Lelouch come back, but the manga is already shooting that wish out of the water with the mysterious man (even if he has absolutely no relation to Lelouch, he's still a Char style clone).

It would be a far more powerful argument if the manga didn't have another two or three characters who are also "clones" of preexisting individuals from Code Geass ...and therefore kind of supports the "identical ancestor theory" by default since the "mysterious man" isn't the only person who is someone else's doppleganger. He also spends more time in the background than actually doing anything.

I do agree that there's multiple ways to interpret episode 25 and even those might be further altered by future developments, but just as well...a Char-style clone is a different character altogether. Taniguchi can experiment with supernatural tricks all he wants, it's his story, but everything he's done there seems way too far removed from what we actually know that I don't know if he'll ever get around to wrapping it up (even leaving the legal battles aside).

[GundamFan0083]

I know, there's the Gino clone, Renya is similar to Suzaku, and then there's the Kaguya clone (loli fanservice), so the Otogi Zoshi type angle is probably closer to the truth (reincarnation).

However, we don't know if this Lelouch-clone will follow the "identical ancestor theory" or the Otogi Zoshi angle (in which Mansairaku is basically immortal) where the mysterious man plays a more occult-type role than the other characters.

However, this is all just fun speculation for now.
We just have to wait and see what will come post-ep25 to see what Sunrise really has in store for us.

[Lelouch14]

Seriously... I just finished watching Code Geass R2, like.. last week. And I really have to say that it really fucks with my head every day.

I mean sure, I can explain the events in a way that Lelouch is dead. But then again, if I wanted to, I can explain why he is NOT dead.

I have to say the ending of Code Geass was not perfect.. I think they should create a new word for an ending as absolutely awesome and perfect as that.

But for ALL the people that say that the writer (Sunrise) said that "Leloush Vi Britannia" is "dead". Well, yes, the writers didn't really LIE. He got stabbed with a sword, duh he's dead. But with Charles' code, he'll be revived.


Now for people that ask or say "Where exactly does it say that Lelouch got Charles' code?"

How else would Nunnally be able to see Lelouchs past? When Leloush touched C.C in the cave, he saw a memory. And when C.C touched the knightmare of Suzaku, he saw a memory. Same thing here, with Nunally. Which has to mean that he has the code.

Now for the people that think that him coming back alive kind of diminishes the effect of the ending, I don't think so. For someone, who was the ruler of the world, to destroy hatred, and then live on a farm, without his sister, friends, with no status whatsoever, he basically DID die. And is living as a normal person with CC on some farm.

[Lost Cause]

Lelouch14; Thing is the ending was (according to Sunrise, and both writer and director) an open one. And we are allowed to conclude what we think happened.
Your conclusions are mostly in line with most if us. As to wether or not Lelouch is dead or alive is still an unknown, at least as far as we know. And much like yourself I still think the reason we were never shown the cart drivers face is obvious!
As for the "right" word for the ending, I think "WTF" works!
And welcome to the forum!

[Sol Falling]

People continue to cling to their delusions. In the director's cut version of Zero: Requiem, the cart driver scene/monologue with C.C. doesn't even exist in the first place. And the writers (not Sunrise; the actual, individual writers wholly responsible for the script and story, Okouchi and Taniguchi) didn't say "Lelouch Vi Britannia is dead", they said Lelouch is dead. There's no room for clever little excuses like "oh he'll be revived afterwards"--the plain truth, the clear intention is for Lelouch to be dead, period. People just need to learn to accept that this is the officially endorsed, authorially supported, unambiguously plainly correct interpretation of the story. Anything else is complete fanfiction. Live with it.

(There's nothing wrong with fanfiction. Just don't fool yourself about what you're really doing.)

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

People continue to cling to their delusions. In the director's cut version of Zero: Requiem, the cart driver scene/monologue with C.C. doesn't even exist in the first place. And the writers (not Sunrise; the actual, individual writers wholly responsible for the script and story, Okouchi and Taniguchi) didn't say "Lelouch Vi Britannia is dead", they said Lelouch is dead. There's no room for clever little excuses like "oh he'll be revived afterwards"--the plain truth, the clear intention is for Lelouch to be dead, period. People just need to learn to accept that this is the officially endorsed, authorially supported, unambiguously plainly correct interpretation of the story. Anything else is complete fanfiction. Live with it.

(There's nothing wrong with fanfiction. Just don't fool yourself about what you're really doing.)

You forgot, "Unless Sunrise says otherwise."
Like it or not Sol, the fact remains that Sunrise is producing more Code Geass even after Okouchi stated in the Continue #42 interview that there wouldn't be anymore.

From Continue #42:

(Interviewer)-----I'll be blunt: Are you thinking of a sequel?

Okouchi: This is a show that's produced great results, so it's certainly true that there have been some suggestions [for a sequel], but for now there are no such plans. As of now (this interview was held September 2008) the final episode still hasn't gone on air yet, so I don't feel like thinking about the future yet. I'd like to think about it once the final episode has aired and I've heard what the fans have to say. I don't intend to deny the commercial side of anime productions, of course, but I'd like to decide only after knowing what the customers think. Which is why for now, I'm eagerly anticipating the airing of the final episode.*

He had no intensions of making a sequel, side-story, or anything else.
That's why he's not part of the new side-story, and probably why Taniguichi is the one doing the manga WITHOUT Okouchi.

Sunrise has plans for this franchise and they've already put a Char-style clone in the new Manga, what makes you so damn confident that they won't retcon Lelouch?