Gundam SEED DESTINY (Phase 5 Discussion)

[aLact]

woah, if it really athrun's ms who got it's arm destroyed, he must have lost a lot of is ms skills lost. i mean, one of the legendary ace from the previous war should be better than this.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by aLact

woah, if it really athrun's ms who got it's arm destroyed, he must have lost a lot of is ms skills lost. i mean, one of the legendary ace from the previous war should be better than this.

lol... Losing an arm to a GINN of all things... (granted, its no regular GINN, but still)

[sarcasteak]

Was he preaching peace while he lost it...or was it just "damn Minerva, I purposely lost that arm and you guys just had to put it back...here, chop this off for me kthx?"

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by DwArD

And if there's one thing Uzumaki did, that will definitely be the buliding of the Gs. I don't see anything wrong with their policy of neutrality, and the politicians sacrificing themselves to 'save' Orb is pretty touching too. Its hard to see leaders nowadays willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the country. But still, someone else should take over Uzumaki's position instead of Cagalli. I just have a feeling she'll only lead Orb towards war again.

Hmm.... let's see what Uzumi and his policies did in SEED

1) When it was dicovered that Orb was helping EA building Gundams, he said he didn't know it and "resigned" his position to "take responsibility" (but he's still in power and full control of Orb). However he didn't stop using the EA technologies acquired from building Gundams to build his own Gundams and MS. This surely didn't go down well with both ZAFT and EA. For ZAFT he was just faking a resignation to evade responsibility, for EA he broke the deal from his side and it seemed he stole their technology to strengthen his own army.

2) when the Archangel was almost chased down by the Zala team, Uzumi let it escape into Orb and forced the Archangel crew to share its data and got Kira to develop OS for Orb's MS. Again that surely didn't go down well with both ZAFT and EA. It was somewhat reasonable to get his own daughter to safety, however now it was more like a trade between the Archangel crew and Orb, so Orb got the battle data of Strike and Archangel, and got to examine Strike and Archangel thoroughly, and made its crew to help them develop MS technology. Neither ZAFT nor EA would like it.

3) when Archangel was declared a traitor by EA after Alaska, Uzumi let them escape into Orb and since the Archangel knew the truth of Alaska, it's surely a target by EA.

So Uzumi has basically done nothing to enforce his "neutrality" policy but just more like pissing off both ZAFT and EA time and again. I'd say pissing off both sides in a war is not a good way to help maintain neutraility

4) after Orb got invaded by EA, Uzumi declined offer of help from ZAFT and decided to fight a completely hopeless war against EA, and later gathered all those important leaders and blow themselves up. I see no "neutrality" or "peace" ideals in killing oneself, nor does committing suicide accomplish anything to help the war or Orb.

For Orb's political system, I think it's definitely the most messed up out of the three. PLANT has the high council system, which seems to be a democracy, and the council members clearly disagree in a lot of things and discuss a lot during meetings, which is a good thing. The EA doesn't have much influential moderate people left after the death of Halberton, but still during its meetings some are seen arguing against the drastic actions proposed by Azrael. Now Orb, on the other hand, seems to be totally under the iron grip of Uzumi and he basically says what he wants to say and does what he wants to do without any kind of opposition. He can even resign his position and still has full power over the country. During the meetins noone else dares to say anything against him... actually it seems noone else dares to say anything, it's all Uzumi talking and everyone else listening and obeying. That's some really bad sign of a really messed up political system IMO.

[K'9999]

Originally Posted by DwArD

And if there's one thing Uzumaki did, that will definitely be the buliding of the Gs. I don't see anything wrong with their policy of neutrality, and the politicians sacrificing themselves to 'save' Orb is pretty touching too. Its hard to see leaders nowadays willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the country. But still, someone else should take over Uzumaki's position instead of Cagalli. I just have a feeling she'll only lead Orb towards war again.

When do we get to see Athrun in Saviour!!!??? Can't wait

At least, Bush won't do that. The only thing that selfish Bush did is to keep starting the wars. Damn, all I can said is none because the things I want to discuss had been discussed.

[zealot]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Hmm.... let's see what Uzumi and his policies did in SEED

1) When it was dicovered that Orb was helping EA building Gundams, he said he didn't know it and "resigned" his position to "take responsibility" (but he's still in power and full control of Orb). However he didn't stop using the EA technologies acquired from building Gundams to build his own Gundams and MS. This surely didn't go down well with both ZAFT and EA. For ZAFT he was just faking a resignation to evade responsibility, for EA he broke the deal from his side and it seemed he stole their technology to strengthen his own army.

2) when the Archangel was almost chased down by the Zala team, Uzumi let it escape into Orb and forced the Archangel crew to share its data and got Kira to develop OS for Orb's MS. Again that surely didn't go down well with both ZAFT and EA. It was somewhat reasonable to get his own daughter to safety, however now it was more like a trade between the Archangel crew and Orb, so Orb got the battle data of Strike and Archangel, and got to examine Strike and Archangel thoroughly, and made its crew to help them develop MS technology. Neither ZAFT nor EA would like it.

3) when Archangel was declared a traitor by EA after Alaska, Uzumi let them escape into Orb and since the Archangel knew the truth of Alaska, it's surely a target by EA.

So Uzumi has basically done nothing to enforce his "neutrality" policy but just more like pissing off both ZAFT and EA time and again. I'd say pissing off both sides in a war is not a good way to help maintain neutraility

4) after Orb got invaded by EA, Uzumi declined offer of help from ZAFT and decided to fight a completely hopeless war against EA, and later gathered all those important leaders and blow themselves up. I see no "neutrality" or "peace" ideals in killing oneself, nor does committing suicide accomplish anything to help the war or Orb.

My view is that what he did is for the good for Orb. He may not know of the building of the Gundams, but someone had to take responsibility, and as the head he did. Using new technology for one's own advantage is what anyone will do, regardless of who objects.

When Orb was invaded, he couldn't get ZAFT help, as it will incur the hatred of the whole Earth Alliance. The attack was the idea of a few people in EA who wanted Orb's technology and mass driver. I doubt that the rest of the world saw Orb as the enemy...

[Kaka]

Originally Posted by aLact

woah, if it really athrun's ms who got it's arm destroyed, he must have lost a lot of is ms skills lost. i mean, one of the legendary ace from the previous war should be better than this.

but then, He was in a Zaku, not Gundam @_@
it was already very amazing that Athrun could stand against 3 gundams at the same time
in terms of mobility and power output and stuff, Zaku << Gundam, usually

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by zealot

My view is that what he did is for the good for Orb. He may not know of the building of the Gundams, but someone had to take responsibility, and as the head he did. Using new technology for one's own advantage is what anyone will do, regardless of who objects.

When Orb was invaded, he couldn't get ZAFT help, as it will incur the hatred of the whole Earth Alliance. The attack was the idea of a few people in EA who wanted Orb's technology and mass driver. I doubt that the rest of the world saw Orb as the enemy...

that's definitely nothing good for the Orb to piss off others in a war, he's incurring hatred from both ZAFT and EA with his actions time and again. Obviously Uzumi's ideals have more tha just "staying neutral", his ideals involve something like "saving the mankind with seeds of hope". And since Orb was obviously under dictatorship and he was the dictator, benevolent or not, it's nothing wrong for people to hate him for his policies, and IMO it's nothing wrong for some people to disapprove of their leader's policies, and it's nothing wrong for people to blame their loss on the dictator of their country.

[zealot]

Originally Posted by dreamless

that's definitely nothing good for the Orb to piss off others in a war, he's incurring hatred from both ZAFT and EA with his actions time and again. Obviously Uzumi's ideals have more tha just "staying neutral", his ideals involve something like "saving the mankind with seeds of hope". And since Orb was obviously under dictatorship and he was the dictator, benevolent or not, it's nothing wrong for people to hate him for his policies, and IMO it's nothing wrong for some people to disapprove of their leader's policies, and it's nothing wrong for people to blame their loss on the dictator of their country.

True people can disapprove of their leader's actions, but put urself in Uzumi's position. What would YOU have done differently? I believe that the actions that he did were the best possible at that time.

I would have done more or less the same if i were him

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by zealot

True people can disapprove of their leader's actions, but put urself in Uzumi's position. What would YOU have done differently? I believe that the actions that he did were the best possible at that time.

I would have done more or less the same if i were him

At a time like this, maybe it's better to listen to the people's opinions rather than deciding their future with one's own ideals. It's their lives and their homes that's at stake after all. When you insists on doing things your own way for your own ideals, then you must take the responsibility of being hated by those who disapprove of your policies.

Also I don't think asking for help from ZAFT to repel EA attack would incurred more hatred from others, they are already invaded by EA, that means EA has already openly decleared an all-out war on Orb. It won't go any worse from there. And I don't think any real world leader will hesitate to ally against a common enemy. Even Russia and US allied together to fight Hitler in WW2.

[pyu]

... And since Orb was obviously under dictatorship and he was the dictator, benevolent or not,...

What gave you the impression that Uzumi was a dictator?

Though I think Orb's system of government was pretty unique - a quasi constitutional parliament with a portion of power still in the hands of the old nobility - Uzumi was hardly a dictator. Note that he had the other leaders of Orb around him and there were the politicians who had involved Orb in the development of the Gundams without his sanction (though I doubt anything got pass his sharp eyes).

Uzumi was also highly respected for his ideals and his willingness to stick to them - that Coordinators and Naturals could coexist in peace and live in harmony. His standing afforded Orb some measure of protection till Azrael and Blue Cosmos got involved and was determined to obtain that mass driver at Orb.

Come to think of it, Blue Cosmos would have found some reason to invade Orb simply because Orb was a continuing example of how Coordinators and Naturals could live together without all of that racial and religious fears that Blue Cosmos and other racial discrimination groups were spreading throughout the world.

Remember, the PLANT sponsor states were the actual ones which actively pursued war with the PLANTs in the first place because Coordinators were already leaving Earth in droves to set up homes in the PLANTs.

Alliance with the PLANTs and ZAFT was impossible simply because Patrick Zala dominated the council after the death of Siegel Clyne. Remember, Zala sought the utter decimation of the Earth Alliance and had an irrational (though understandable after what happened to his wife) hatred of Naturals. Would he have tolerated Uzumi's policies and ideals?

Even now in Destiny on the PLANTs and on Earth, I'm sure anti-Coordinator (Earth) and anti-Natural (PLANTs) sentiments are prevalent within the populations there. Open, total war is still a real threat till the majority of the population realises that the other side aren't all the spawn of Satan (Naturals' perception of Coordinators) or are all evil, bigoted idiots (Coordinators' perception of Naturals).

No, Uzumi literally had no one else to turn to. Though I thought his decision to stay behind and die was too noble of him. I bet he was thinking it was his decisions and policies that led to Orb's fall and in the end, he couldn't have it on his consience (sp?) to leave safely while people were dying around him.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by pyu

What gave you the impression that Uzumi was a dictator?

The fact that he remains in power after his so-called resignation, and he can take all the others to blow themselves up with him, and from what we've seen during the Orb meetings, it's just him blabbering his ideals and no one else says even a word. that's far from a healthy political system.

From what we've seen in SEED, it's practically Uzumi running Orb single-handedly, even after he has supposedly resigned, so in effect he is a dictator, and since it's all his decisions, he has to take the responsibilities and consequences, including being hated by people not agreeing with him.

[bohemian]

Originally Posted by zealot

True people can disapprove of their leader's actions, but put urself in Uzumi's position. What would YOU have done differently? I believe that the actions that he did were the best possible at that time.

I would have done more or less the same if i were him

The EA's invasion of Orb reminds me of Romefeller's invasion of Sanc Kingdom in Wing. Relena was in a similar situation; that is, to insist her ideals (in other words, sacrifice her people) or to surrender. In her case, she chose to surrender in order to avoid further destruction to her country, thus saving her people's lives. Uzumi did the opposite; he insisted to fight against the EA despite that he knew his country could not win. Truly I don't think Uzumi's decision was the best one, and what is the reason that he and the other top officials sacrificed themselves for? To prevent the EA getting the massdriver, but then EA got another one shortly in the next few episodes, so their suicidal act was meaningless in retrospect. In the end, I think the best interest of a leader should be protecting his own people, and I think Uzumi failed to do that. If Relena was the leader of Orb at that time, Shinn's family (as well as many others) would not have to die.

Originally Posted by pyu

Though I thought his decision to stay behind and die was too noble of him. I bet he was thinking it was his decisions and policies that led to Orb's fall and in the end, he couldn't have it on his consience (sp?) to leave safely while people were dying around him.

Somehow it reminds me of the samurai tradition to kill oneself in the face of a losing war/battle.

[wao]

I have figured out the true nature of Talia! All you need to do is wait - somewhere soon we'll find out that she's a HUGE alcoholic, she'll think Gilbert is the only one meant for her but also go get more and more irritable until her father is killed and Gilbert dumps her and she goes crazy and she burns down the Archangel with an evil laugh and...

(Hint: look at Talia's seiyuu )

[angel_wing0]

Originally Posted by brightman

Spoiler:

In fact according to previews he'll be saving Athrun's ass next ep... So there.

man athrun got owned BIG TIME then!

[zealot]

Originally Posted by bohemian

Uzumi did the opposite; he insisted to fight against the EA despite that he knew his country could not win. Truly I don't think Uzumi's decision was the best one, and what is the reason that he and the other top officials sacrificed themselves for? To prevent the EA getting the massdriver, but then EA got another one shortly in the next few episodes, so their suicidal act was meaningless in retrospect. In the end, I think the best interest of a leader should be protecting his own people, and I think Uzumi failed to do that.

I don't think he had much choice. Only 3 routes were avaliable to him

1) Accept EA's demands. This would mean abandoning all of the country's ideals and be seen as untrustworthy by the rest of the world and open Orb to ZAFT's attacks

2) Join ZAFT.Not much different as EA would still attack

3) Fight for ideals. Not the best choice as well, involving sacrifices. But at least stood by ideals till the end.

With the circumstances and the choices avaliable, choosing any of the choices would be bad. He choose 3) which turned out bad, but others may turn out worse.

[wao]

Ah, I finally watched this episode...

I really want to whack Cagalli over the head with a stick, she really has just got too much stress on her... Shinn can even scare her... sigh.

I liked the Athrun/Cagalli scenes, especially when I was watching it and remembered the ifrst time they met, how their relationship has developed. But of course it isn't perfect... Athrun really is very kind and loving towards Cagalli

Is anyone going to bet on Shinn/Cagalli anywhere in the series, though? Since they seem to be so much at odds with each other (but not to the point of let's say Lord Jibril vs Gilbert Dullindal)... we all remember the blue haired guy who was also at odds with Cagalli at first (but then again, not to the extent that Shinn and Cagalli hate each other)...

Good ep, even though I couldn't understand some stuff...

However, I will emit a large sigh and be highly disappointed if somewhere later in the series Shinn suddenly becomes on OK terms with Cagalli once he finds out how she lost her friends and her father. I doubt it'll happen, but then again, I doubted that Andrew Waltfeld would come back alive, so...
<style=dreamless></style>

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by zealot

I don't think he had much choice. Only 3 routes were avaliable to him

1) Accept EA's demands. This would mean abandoning all of the country's ideals and be seen as untrustworthy by the rest of the world and open Orb to ZAFT's attacks

2) Join ZAFT.Not much different as EA would still attack

3) Fight for ideals. Not the best choice as well, involving sacrifices. But at least stood by ideals till the end.

With the circumstances and the choices avaliable, choosing any of the choices would be bad. He choose 3) which turned out bad, but others may turn out worse.

it's not really the country's ideals, it's just Uzumi's personal ideals... you can't call something a country's ideals when they are not agreed by everyone in the country.

Also allying with others against a common enemy is not abandoning any ideals. Allying with USSR in WW2 against Hitler didn't mean US was to embrace Communism...

And I don't really see how he still "stood by ideals" till the end, I mean, what's his ideal in this? The ideal to let Naturals and Coordinators cooperate? Then allying with ZAFT to repel EA attack surely doesn't go against this ideal. The ideal of neutrality? The moment when EA attacks Orb, it's no longer neutral, it has become EA's enemy, so Orb is no longer a neutral country anyway. The ideal of peace? same with the "neutrality ideal", when EA attacks Orb, there's no longer any peace in the country, it's in a war already. And I don't really see him blowing a lot of people and himself up has anything to do with any ideals...

[sarcasteak]

I demand you stop this very instant, dreamless; you're going to make Cagalli cry in her room later!

She's already getting spanked by Shinn for things she didn't decide on...but of course, her higher-than-thou peace preaching doesn't help her cause at all.

[pyu]

it's not really the country's ideals, it's just Uzumi's personal ideals... you can't call something a country's ideals when they are not agreed by everyone in the country.

Also allying with others against a common enemy is not abandoning any ideals. Allying with USSR in WW2 against Hitler didn't mean US was to embrace Communism...

And I don't really see how he still "stood by ideals" till the end, I mean, what's his ideal in this? The ideal to let Naturals and Coordinators cooperate? Then allying with ZAFT to repel EA attack surely doesn't go against this ideal. The ideal of neutrality? The moment when EA attacks Orb, it's no longer neutral, it has become EA's enemy, so Orb is no longer a neutral country anyway. The ideal of peace? same with the "neutrality ideal", when EA attacks Orb, there's no longer any peace in the country, it's in a war already. And I don't really see him blowing a lot of people and himself up has anything to do with any ideals...

I'm surprised you didn't get it despite 50 episodes of SEED. Uzumi's idea was simple - that Coordinators and Naturals would be able to live and coexist together if they worked at it. He actively worked against and dispelled the anti-Coordinator propaganda that Blue Cosmos and many others were spreading. He ensured that in ORB, Coordinators and Naturals would continue to live together without inter-racial conflict.

I think Orb's neutrality was a direct result of his idea - and with these two factors, Orb grew quite strong by benefitting from the presence of both Coordinators and Naturals who settled there trying to avoid the strict racial discrimination policies instituted by both the PLANTs and the Earth Alliance.

Personally, I find Shinn to be terribly simple minded. ORB was his home and he and his family was living in relative peace and harmony (compared to the prosecution that other Coordinators faced on Earth) because of Uzumi's policies. Just because of an attack from the combined Earth Alliance forces, he turns against ORB and their leaders for "being weak". I'm sorry Mr. Shinn Asuka, but the MS force of Ashtrays and ORB's fleet had held out for quite a respectable period of time. Unless your ZAFT training brainwashed you thinking a Coordinator in a MS can go in with 1 to 1000 odds, you are a fool to think a military midget like ORB can stand against the might of the Earth Alliance. I really wonder what does Shinn know about the real facts behind the EA's attack on ORB in the first place.

I am also unsure what crack dreamless is smoking by saying nobody in ORB besides Uzumi had these ideals. Are you taking Shinn's warped point of view to indicate that everyone who left ORB and settled in PLANT after the EA's attack detested Uzumi and his ideals?

Near the end, Uzumi and his fellow ORB leaders had no choices left to them except to order the evacuation of their nation. I agree that the destruction of the mass driver was only symbolic - though I can't deny the look at apoplexy on Azrael's face when he realised he was denied was precious. The melodrama in that particular episode was quite nauseating if you linger upon it for too long.

Turning to the PLANTs and ZAFT was not a viable choice - you've heard of the old chinese phrase "Distant waters cannot help put out this nearby fire"? The same analogy applies - in addition, also you must remember ZAFT was recovering from Alaska.

Also, Uzumi and ORB was in a different situation from Relena and the Sanc Kingdom - her enemies wanted to dominate the world, not exterminate an entire sub-branch of the human race. Uzumi surrendering to the EA would be the symbolic equivalent of surrendering the Coordinators of his nation to the wolves of Blue Cosmos. Think again, do you honestly think that the likes of Azrael and the remaining Earth Alliance leadership would allow time to be given to evacuate ORB's civillian Coordinator population to the PLANTs?

You make it sound like that Uzumi and Cagalli are fools for advocating pacifist idealogies. Do you understand that if there are no true peacemakers, there would be no peace. Cagalli might be undiplomatic and sounding like a terrible fool for making such anti-war (and rather silly in retrospect) statements in front of Shinn and the others - but then again, she's not a natural diplomat in the first place.

The wars, battles and conflicts in SEED and SEED Destiny are different because they all have this tinge of racial discrimination and genocide pervading through them.

I hope all of you who think Cagalli is living in some la-la land for having these ideals should rethink why she is having them in the first place. She has lost friends, the father who raised her, and perhaps everyone who she grew up with in ORB - in return, she is now burdened with continuing her father's mission and to continue leading her nation in these uncertain times.