[Manga] Naruto Chapter 545 Discussion

[s1fizik]

Originally Posted by Fran~

When Madara fought with Hashirama, he took some living tissue from him and he grew that tissue like a plant. He used those cells in the same way that Danzo used them to be able to use so many sharingans/mokuton. So it's easy to say that Madara can be alive for so many years because those cells. Furthermore, Zetsu is created from that "artificial created" Hashirama's body as we saw in Madara's base.

So, Madara don't have the "real" body but a "thing" that he grew from Hashirama's tissue/cells. That's why Orochimaru used Hashirama's body against Sarutobi.

Zetsu is a "plant" and you can say that Madara used Hashirama's mokuton to achieve Zetsu's creation.

If we were to put it into RL Scientific terms... Madara took the genetic information from the tissue he got off Hashirama, took the unfertilized ovary of a human female and gutted it of its set of genetic information and injected the DNA from harishima's cells into this embryo. He grew a clone in a test-tube (this tube grown human being would have no belly button) out of this fertilized embryo and created the hashirama's body that we see as part of the statue to create white zetsus.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by s1fizik

If we were to put it into RL Scientific terms... Madara took the genetic information from the tissue he got off Hashirama, took the unfertilized ovary of a human female and gutted it of its set of genetic information and injected the DNA from harishima's cells into this embryo. He grew a clone in a test-tube (this tube grown human being would have no belly button) out of this fertilized embryo and created the hashirama's body that we see as part of the statue to create white zetsus.

Not necessarily an embryo, stem cells are more close to your example. Because this is like those tubes with cell culture from where you can obtain some proteins, molecules, etc.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You mean like having a sobering experience where he realizes everyone has their limitations and accepts there's some things he just can't handle alone? Hah! That's a good one!

Nah, he'd only want to get stronger. Every time Naruto has felt he's failed the solution wasn't for him to increase his reliance on his friends, it was for he, himself to get more powerful. If Naruto was utterly beaten here, he'd only decide he needs to be stronger and would find some way to do it.

oh, i forgot about that! yeah, you're right. i guess i was really hoping that he would realize his mistake and try relying on his friends for a change. but i guess that will never happen, especially after kishi had been so clear about the whole chosen one and saving the world concept. i remember a line in one piece about the significance of friendship and oda's idea of friendship had more to do with teamwork than simply protecting your loved ones. i believe it was the character zoro who said that rescuing and protecting friends seem more like kids playing around. friendship and teamwork is about doing what you can for that other person and then rely on him to do the same for you. it's about supporting each other. i kinda agree with that idea more than protecting everyone and doing it all by yourself.

I thought hokage was merely supposed to be the strongest ninja in the village, the one who lays down his life to save everyone else. He doesn't need to be smart, he's got advisers to do the thinking for him. He just needs to have the guts and strength to make the right decisions. Considering konoha's past, a mega-powerful idealistic idiot is exactly what they need.

tsunade wasn't necessarily the strongest konoha ninja when she was made hokage, jiraiya was far more powerful. but she was chosen because of her leadership. power-wise jiraiya was the more suitable choice but he had no leadership skills or even the slightest interest in becoming the hokage. he loved konoha but he didn't love it enough to stay there and protect its people. while tsunade was more loyal to the village. she's not so overpowered that she no longer needs to rely on anyone. isn't shikaku doing most of the work in this war? tsunade is relying heavily on his skills.

a sign of good leadership is to utilize the abilities of your subordinates and work with them to achieve a desired result. she's doing that and i think she has always done that. even the sandaime also relied on his subordinates. just because he gave his life for the village doesn't mean he wouldn't have allowed anyone else to help him out when he needed the help. the reason he received no help from the others while he fought oro was because they couldn't help him. he was trapped inside oro's barrier. it's true that the hokage should be powerful enough to defend the village when needed but he doesn't have to be an idiot who have no leadership skills or vision whatsoever. a hokage is still the leader of the village, after all.

[Shax22]

The Edo Tensei Kabuto showed Madara? Was actually the real Madara. Calling it here first. Since the Madara being shown now is all Zetsugunk, the real Madara can somehow get his body back through all this mess, or his Sharingan lets him go to fake bodys like the Zetsu, or lets him do stuff with time from way back then.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

tsunade wasn't necessarily the strongest konoha ninja when she was made hokage, jiraiya was far more powerful. but she was chosen because of her leadership. power-wise jiraiya was the more suitable choice but he had no leadership skills or even the slightest interest in becoming the hokage. he loved konoha but he didn't love it enough to stay there and protect its people.

Tbh I think it came down to Jiraiya simply not wanting to do it. Maybe it was because of his guilt for failing to bring back Oro. Nobody can say for sure. Other than Jiraiya, Tsunade and Danzo were the only other candidates for the strongest. No one trusted Danzo, but it would probably be more accurate to say that Danzo wasn't even part of the picture at the time, leaving only Tsunade. Personally I'm still hoping that Tsunade will pull out a super-mode, like Jiraiya's sage and Oro's hydra, because despite her ultimate healing skills I still don't think she's proven worthy of the sannin.

Besides, the point of my statement that konoha needs an idealistic idiot is precisely that Naruto should never become the type who makes the most rational choice, the type to sacrifice the few for the many. Rather than that, I hope that he leads konoha based entirely on his own moral code, which doesn't allow for any sacrifices.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Tbh I think it came down to Jiraiya simply not wanting to do it. Maybe it was because of his guilt for failing to bring back Oro. Nobody can say for sure. Other than Jiraiya, Tsunade and Danzo were the only other candidates for the strongest. No one trusted Danzo, but it would probably be more accurate to say that Danzo wasn't even part of the picture at the time, leaving only Tsunade. Personally I'm still hoping that Tsunade will pull out a super-mode, like Jiraiya's sage and Oro's hydra, because despite her ultimate healing skills I still don't think she's proven worthy of the sannin.

Besides, the point of my statement that konoha needs an idealistic idiot is precisely that Naruto should never become the type who makes the most rational choice, the type to sacrifice the few for the many. Rather than that, I hope that he leads konoha based entirely on his own moral code, which doesn't allow for any sacrifices.

even jiraiya said that tsunade was the more suitable choice. he was a drifter and he had no ambitions of leading a village. if you come to think of it, apart from his strengths as a ninja, he really was a bad choice. he got distracted easily. hashirama and tobirama were powerhouses but they also possessed leadership and vision. hashirama possessed the charm that made him popular among the people of konoha and was even revered outside of the village. tobirama was a visionary who built the foundation of konoha, he made the village into a super power. those were great leaders.

my problem with naruto's ideals is that they're unrealistic. you can't save everyone. there are times that you could but at some point you would have to make a painful decision and when that time comes you have to be prepared to make it. i hate it that naruto disregarded shikaku and acted like he knew what he was doing. and when he took on pain all by himself, explicitly telling everyone to get out of his way, that sounded a bit egotistic to me. his ideals seem to be centered around saving everyone even at his expense and not relying on anyone for help in the process. the truth is, no man is an island. there are limitations to what one can do and we all need other people. this whole messiah complex that kishi has forced on naruto is getting tiring. i preferred it when he was just a loser who needed to be accepted and wanted to gain everyone's approval.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

my problem with naruto's ideals is that they're unrealistic. you can't save everyone. there are times that you could but at some point you would have to make a painful decision and when that time comes you have to be prepared to make it.

So, what you're saying is Naruto (or Kishimoto) should play Mass Effect 1? .

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by james0246

So, what you're saying is Naruto (or Kishimoto) should play Mass Effect 1? .

Oh lord no. Then Kishi will become as addicted to playing video games as Hirano is, and we'll be getting chapter releases with the same regularity and length that Hellsing produced.

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Oh lord no. Then Kishi will become as addicted to playing video games as Hirano is, and we'll be getting chapter releases with the same regularity and length that Hellsing produced.

You mean Hunterxhunter release dates....or rather lack off.

What is kishi actually trying to say with this manga? What is the life lesson this manga gives other then good overcomes bad?
What does he want his character (Naruto) to be (what kind of person).
Right now this whole story is way to idealistic, with no sense of reality in it. Or is this just a ruse by Kishi?

[Discerptor]

I think the last panel will be Naruto breaking the fourth wall and successfully converting all the readers to Narutism. Then Phase 1 of Kishi's plot to rule the world will be complete, showing how positive forces can be manipulated to lead to disastrous outcomes by sinister minds. Thus it will be a cheery, idealistic story that turns out to actually have a dark message in a very meta way.

[Rahan]

So, now that Naruto decided to head to all the battlefield, am I wrong to say his schedule for the day is :

Save the medics (Sakura / Shizune) from the creepy Zetsu invasion
show off
Defeat all the Zetsus so that they can't confuse the alliance anymore. Defeat the Edos who fight alongside the Zetsus.
show off
Save the daimyos and Mizukage. (ie Defeat the real Black Zetsu)
show off
Free Anko (ie defeat Kabuto)
show off
Free yamato
make a bad joke to Yamato. Destroy the Shodai clone to deprive Madara of his immortality
After hearing about Samui from Darui's squad, get the pot back and save her (ie defeat Madara)
show off

Sasuke will probably be in the base near Yamato or on verge of starting his rampage in Konoha. (this way, Kishi can involve Karin like he'll involve Juugo and Suigetsu when Naruto encounters Mangetsu and Kimimaro)

Did I forget something ?

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

I think the last panel will be Naruto breaking the fourth wall and successfully converting all the readers to Narutism. Then Phase 1 of Kishi's plot to rule the world will be complete, showing how positive forces can be manipulated to lead to disastrous outcomes by sinister minds. Thus it will be a cheery, idealistic story that turns out to actually have a dark message in a very meta way.

I'm already converted to Narutism

Originally Posted by ronin myael

my problem with naruto's ideals is that they're unrealistic. you can't save everyone. there are times that you could but at some point you would have to make a painful decision and when that time comes you have to be prepared to make it. i hate it that naruto disregarded shikaku and acted like he knew what he was doing. and when he took on pain all by himself, explicitly telling everyone to get out of his way, that sounded a bit egotistic to me. his ideals seem to be centered around saving everyone even at his expense and not relying on anyone for help in the process. the truth is, no man is an island. there are limitations to what one can do and we all need other people. this whole messiah complex that kishi has forced on naruto is getting tiring. i preferred it when he was just a loser who needed to be accepted and wanted to gain everyone's approval.

It's ok if Naruto's ideals are unrealistic though. Naruto's power is also unrealistic. When I think what kind of hokage Naruto would be, for example regarding the Uchiha massacre, I think that Naruto would do something that no other kage could even imagine. When Danzo would suggest using Itachi and Madara to slay their own clan I'd like to think Naruto would knock him out on the spot.

Then, on the night of the rebelion, Naruto would have all the villagers teleported out of Konoha and face all the Uchiha by himself. He'd beat the crap out of all of them and then say something along the lines of "Did you get it out of your system now? Can we all live together or what?". And then proceed to tear down the establishment that ostracized and monitored the Uchiha, with them becoming fiercely loyal to him in return.

I know it sounds like something straight out of a fan-fic. I never understood why Naruto needed to become as powerful as he is. But as it is, and if gets even stronger before the series is over, he could pull off something like that.

As for Naruto being a loser, it had to end eventually. As a loser he already defeated the greatest prodigies of his generation, Neji and Gaara (and almost Sasuke). The potential was there from the start and at some point Kishi would had no choice but to discard Naruto's loser mantle and make him realize this potential.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by mrShady

What is kishi actually trying to say with this manga? What is the life lesson this manga gives other then good overcomes bad?
What does he want his character (Naruto) to be (what kind of person).
Right now this whole story is way to idealistic, with no sense of reality in it. Or is this just a ruse by Kishi?

Well, there was a pretty cool theme going on in part one about the underdog overcoming all odds and how anyone can achieve greatness, regardless of heritage, class, rank, etc.

Of course Kishi through that baby out with the bathwater some time go and I now think the message of Naruto is more akin to "eugenics is the answer."

[neji-kun]

Doesn't the underdog stop being the underdog the when he consistently wrecks everyone he fights? Or am I missing something?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by neji-kun

Doesn't the underdog stop being the underdog the when he consistently wrecks everyone he fights? Or am I missing something?

The underdog stops being the underdog when it is revealed that the underdog was actually the uberdog all along. The second Kishimoto decided that Naruto was the scion of greatness was the second Naruro stopped being an underdog and became a top dog.

That being said, there is an entire thread dedicated to just how right Neji (edit: which incidentally is turned to Menial by my phones auto-correct feature) was about fate...

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by james0246

The underdog stops being the underdog when it is revealed that the underdog was actually the uberdog all along. The second Kishimoto decided that Naruto was the scion of greatness was the second Naruro stopped being an underdog and became a top dog.

That being said, there is an entire thread dedicated to just how right Neji (edit: which incidentally is turned to Menial by my phones auto-correct feature) was about fate...

I see your reasoning but all in all being the worst student in the class still makes you the underdog no matter who your parents were.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Anyone can be a underdog, no matter how much they win. Rocky Balboa comes across as an underdog in every single film, even after he's beaten world heavyweight champs and 'roided-up super-Russians. As long as the enemy is formidable enough and/or the hero has a bad enough handicap.

That said, the days are long gone where Naruto is the hopeless idiot that can surprise everyone by actually being competent once in awhile. Everyone knows he's extremely strong. But people like the Raikage still underestimate his strength, mostly because they can't grasp just how powerful he is, not because they believe he's a loser.

Originally Posted by Rahan

So, now that Naruto decided to head to all the battlefield, am I wrong to say his schedule for the day is :

Save the medics (Sakura / Shizune) from the creepy Zetsu invasion
show off
Defeat all the Zetsus so that they can't confuse the alliance anymore. Defeat the Edos who fight alongside the Zetsus.
show off
Save the daimyos and Mizukage. (ie Defeat the real Black Zetsu)
show off
Free Anko (ie defeat Kabuto)
show off
Free yamato
make a bad joke to Yamato. Destroy the Shodai clone to deprive Madara of his immortality
After hearing about Samui from Darui's squad, get the pot back and save her (ie defeat Madara)
show off

Sasuke will probably be in the base near Yamato or on verge of starting his rampage in Konoha. (this way, Kishi can involve Karin like he'll involve Juugo and Suigetsu when Naruto encounters Mangetsu and Kimimaro)

Did I forget something ?

Eh, you're probably half-joking, but I don't think even Kishi would have his main character beat that many villains single-handedly. Naruto will take care of the Zetsu's. After that, I think his opponents will be primarily the jinchuuriki. Black Zetsu is just keeping Mizukage preoccupied, he'll probably flee when he learns Madara is on the move. Onoki and Gaara will move against Muu and the 4th Kazekage.

I'd like it if Naruto bites off a bit more than he can chew with the Zetsus and is weakened when the jinchuuriki show up. Killer Bee takes on the jinchuuriki single-handedly to buy time for Naruto and ends up getting captured. Any rate, Bee and Naruto need to get split somehow. It lessens the tension if Naruto always have a powerful bodyguard when he's plenty strong in the first place.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Eh, you're probably half-joking, but I don't think even Kishi would have his main character beat that many villains single-handedly. Naruto will take care of the Zetsu's. After that, I think his opponents will be primarily the jinchuuriki. Black Zetsu is just keeping Mizukage preoccupied, he'll probably flee when he learns Madara is on the move. Onoki and Gaara will move against Muu and the 4th Kazekage.

I am actually dead serious

If Madara goes down this day and his "today is the last day of the senju's will of fire" speech, the others will have to go down first (with the possible exception of Sasuke)

Someone has to deal with Black Zetsu and it can be only Naruto since it will involve showing off in front of the daimyos and a kage Naruto hasn't met yet.
Same with Kabuto. Who else than Naruto (or redeemed Sasuke) can possiblyl take him down ?
Samui will be saved and it will be by Naruto. Same with Anko and Yamato.
Naruto hasn't met anyone from Iwa yet so he also has to introduce himself to Onoki or to whoever will succeed the old man should he die, so at the very least, he'll take over the Edo kages fight from Onoki.

I'd like it if Naruto bites off a bit more than he can chew with the Zetsus and is weakened when the jinchuuriki show up. Killer Bee takes on the jinchuuriki single-handedly to buy time for Naruto and ends up getting captured. Any rate, Bee and Naruto need to get split somehow. It lessens the tension if Naruto always have a powerful bodyguard when he's plenty strong in the first place.

They have already split. Naruto said he was only leaving a bunshin and the frog behind. We don't know where the real Naruto is heading to. (but I suspect it's irrelevant and the clones will summon the real one every time they have an encounter with the enemy)

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by james0246

The underdog stops being the underdog when it is revealed that the underdog was actually the uberdog all along. The second Kishimoto decided that Naruto was the scion of greatness was the second Naruro stopped being an underdog and became a top dog.

That being said, there is an entire thread dedicated to just how right Neji (edit: which incidentally is turned to Menial by my phones auto-correct feature) was about fate...

I have to disagree. Imo Naruto stopped being the underdog looong before he was revealed to be the uberdog. IIRC, from the end of the chuunin pre-lims Naruto was being trained by one of the legendary sannin and learned to use the fox's power as well as toad summoning. None of his peers had that much going for them so far. By the time he learned rasengan he'd already surpassed Sasuke for a brief time and even managed to lay the smack on an unsuspecting Kabuto.

You can't really keep seeing him as a loser when he learns an S-rank jutsu in record time, and it was really the fanbase's fault for perpetuating the idea. The "drop-out overcomes the genius" was Rock-Lee's theme, and back then even Rock Lee made both Sasuke and Naruto look like the drop-outs.

As for Naruto's heritage, from the moment we first saw Minato most readers assumed Naruto was his son. In that color spread with Naruto wearing a cape similar to Minato's it was blatantly obvious. All that was left was for Kishi to spell it out for everyone. It was also mentioned many times that Naruto's own chakra was "special", since he could withstand the 9tails chakra so well. Imo, and admitedly in hindsight, Naruto was never intended to be the perpetual underdog.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, there was a pretty cool theme going on in part one about the underdog overcoming all odds and how anyone can achieve greatness, regardless of heritage, class, rank, etc.

Of course Kishi through that baby out with the bathwater some time go and I now think the message of Naruto is more akin to "eugenics is the answer."

Where was the underdog without heritage? Whenever Naruto was in a really bad situation he used the 4th hokage's heritage. Against Haku, Neji, Gaara, Sasuke, every time Naruto was beaten he pulled out the kyuubi to fight back. In the first episode he makes a mass kage bunshin, how did he have so much chakra, probably because the kyuubi's chakra did leak out of the seal to be added to his own, it was never confirmed but of course when the story is about someone having a very strong monster inside him and he immediately displays something unexpectedly powerful one can only assume that the two things are connected.