Claymore Chapter 117

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by haegar

Oh and of course also some solid chance we get some more Raki next chap, personality I wouldn't mind at all cause I want some issues clarified for good either way ^^

Like what issues? you mean whether or not he is still human?

[haegar]

Originally Posted by Jean Claymore

Just a quick question for those who can read chinise... Did the chapter mention anything like Roxanne can use that crawling attack too?

well in english it is not spelled out as such that she can - but since it was stated she killed Cassy, and chap shows her succesfully "reading" Cassy's skill when she sneaks up on her I would be VERY surprised if she cannot use this move. I'd personally rate this as 99% sure

[Jean Claymore]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

No,nothing like that so far.....but you know that the english version is already out,right?

Originally Posted by haegar

well in english it is not spelled out as such that she can - but since it was stated she killed Cassy, and chap shows her succesfully "reading" Cassy's skill when she sneaks up on her I would be VERY surprised if she cannot use this move. I'd personally rate this as 99% sure

Yeah, and I missed the discussion yesterday Thanks. There, haegar clears out. I just wondered if Roxanne was able to use that lame technique since she did take a peek when Cassandra was fighting an AB. But ain't sure if she can use it since she watched it only once.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by haegar

well in english it is not spelled out as such that she can - but since it was stated she killed Cassy, and chap shows her succesfully "reading" Cassy's skill when she sneaks up on her I would be VERY surprised if she cannot use this move. I'd personally rate this as 99% sure

Imo you are going to far with that 99% sure, we don't even know what happened soon after Roxy saw Cassy use her technique, maybe Roxy didn't even have time to copy Cassy's technique,or maybe she tried but couldnt (and that would be an explanation why she decided to frame Cassy with the org instead of doing the same thing as all the others).

It's totally possible that Roxy can use Cassy's technique.......but personally i doubt it,and surely the possibility is far from being 99%

[Kain999]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

I think everyone will agree with me when I say that "Dust-Eater" is a terrible nickname. So, let's come up with a new name for Cassandra.

Cassandra The Bobblehead.

Cassandra The Upskirt Peeper.....considering her view when she is in the low stance posture....

[Jean Claymore]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Imo you are going to far with that 99% sure, we don't even know what happened soon after Roxy saw Cassy use her technique, maybe Roxy didn't even have time to copy Cassy's technique,or maybe she tried but couldnt (and that would be an explanation why she decided to frame Cassy with the org instead of doing the same thing as all the others).

It's totally possible that Roxy can use Cassy's technique.......but personally i doubt it,and surely the possibility is far from being 99%

Maybe she cut herself tring to use the technique with her left arm though it creeps me out Roxanne's raw powers are coming from the yoki she had stolen. Oh, and it's the second time we've seen someone use its left arm after the shrimp twins.

[MalakTawus]

Also,contrary of what some of you may belive,it's quite obvious that Roxy takes a lot of time to properly copy techniques.
Before killing her idols,she went with them in several missions,and sometimes they also became a famous duo inside the org, to achieve something like that it means that Roxy stayed with her victims for months,almost surely even a few years......so no,the fact that she saw Cassy use her technique once doesn't impy that she is able to copy it unless she had enough time to do it, and we don't know that.


Add to that the fact that it's very difficult that the org sent the n.1 and the n.5 in the same missions (the only occasions where Cassy uses her "special style".
The best possibility imo was for Roxy to ask directly Cassy to let her copy the technique.

@Jean

Oh, and it's the second time we've seen someone use its left arm after the shrimp twins.

and Deneve/Undine

[haegar]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Like what issues? you mean whether or not he is still human?

yepp.

Spoiler for for those who don't wanna go over it again: Raki post:

As I understand it as of now, the dialogue, what the Shrimps say about him and how they handle him and what he says about his senpai Isley spell 100% human.

However, at the same time, there are several tentative indications that one might read as putting that into question(even if the twins held back he fought two warriors simultaneously which is hard to concieve even for an Isley trained human given previously stated "rules" on human/warrior/youma power relation, despite the fight tactics explanations he gives his physical skills with reaction, jump hight and timing seem above human, he was contaminated by the two most powerful entities in this manga for some time-that gotta do something)

But alas, there is also the most valid argument - which is his overall role in the manga as the ONE HUMAN CHARACTER in this world of superhuman warriors. That is hard to imagine to be swept away just like that by Yagi - it is also the reason this question was so hotly debated by both lovers and haters some chaps ago - arguably the whole manga very much "shifts" its stance on "being human" with Raki possibly being powered up.

All things considered, atm I am not satisfied with the amount of explanation Yagi delivered on this subject. My personal gutfeel theory which I cannot proove goes roughly as such:

Raki has left the realms of being human but has not truly become a warrior-hybrid yet. Given he was infected by the rods and Priscilla's arm it is highly likely that some sort of transformation began the moment Prissy stuck her arm into his back - and kept on developing until Dae took out that arm. There, the transformation process stopped, incomplete, leaving him hanging in limbo somewhere between human and low rank level male claymore. I consider this possible since due to his enormous experience with Claymores, his enormous willpower and his tutelage by Isley he might actually be the one male capable of controlling it.

I furthermore suspect, that the current discrepancy between what is said(human) and what is displayed in skill (slightly above human) will be explained away at a later stage by that development slowly, very slowly progressing further till it gets more obvious. Actually I think Raki himself has not yet noticed something is happening to him. And it is conceivable that the Shrimps, being young and inexperienced, and also agitated in that situation missed the subtle indications of him being not entirely human.

There also is the fact that Yagi likes to throw delayed curved balls with ambigous phrasings that later suddenly get an extended meaning - the phrasing that he "smells/feels" / his "aura" is differnet from the MIB had my alarm bells ringing - of course all of this is very much speculative.

Finally, on the big question of how this would change the manga, I guess Yagi might somehow wiggle his way out of the dilemma by not making him a fullfledged warrior but keeping him on a low-hybridization level - and by building on him 100% retaining his human qualities despite his slight physical change. It is reasonable to suspect Raki will still play some important part in the main storyline involving Prissy/Clare, however with Yagi restricting him to human he also restricted his options on how to "use" this character in this increasingly hax-powered world (levels rose and rose and rose and keep on doing so) So I suspect to clear his back Yagi might be somewhat loosening his own restrictions on Raki so that he can later actually have him fight (somewhat) and thus better integrate him into the main plot line...

that being said, yeah, I want more clarification on all of this, hence I mentioned that... sry for some redundance since what I just mentioned I wrote before in parts in several posts on older threads ...

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Fermat

By the way, while I can see all other stats rising from rigorous training, I can't seem to grasp just what exercise a claymore could do to increase her yoki pool significantly. It's one of those stats that I think remain largely unchanged despite how many hours of training you do. Is it possible that suppressing one's yoki over a long period causes the threshold of what can normally be contained by the claymore's body to increase permanently?

I do not think training can necessarily increase one's yoki so much as to train and master it. Furthermore, a technique can change the tide of a fight in the favor of a technique user. Claire may not have had a great mastery of her Yoki in the Witches Maw arc, but the fact that she had the quicksword really gave her an advantage.

Consider Raftella, even though Miria could have had way more yoki than her, Raftella could bypass that difference in power with her illusions. There is a point where the refinement of a technique can mean far more in terms of becoming stronger than yoki.

[Gooral]

@haegar
You don't protect your left arm (non-wielding sword arm in general) as much as you protect your head (if you do that's a waste of effort and an invitation to losing your head or being knocked out in case we're not talking about swords but a fist fight). And it's harder to protect it when you stretch it toward your opponent (so closer to your opponent's sword). Plus it's easier to cut because of being lower and generally closer and it having less diameter (so basically once the sword touches it it goes all through while to cut a head off you need a bit more). So no, it doesn't make more sense and no you didn't explain why she was able to cut their heads off and not hit their necks with a blunt side. As for losing concentration because of Raftela, I see it as an advantage not disadvantage. Because of it Miria's moves became harder to read and more unpredictable since even though she wanted to cut more to the right she went more to the left or even though she wanted to hit with a blunt side something got wrong. She didn't suddenly slow down because of Raftela, she started hitting at strange angles. What's more once she did that she was cornered by the second twin which has shown they were holding back on Miria.



And relax, you're the last person I would neg rep . And I admit I'm biased abut Miria (I've mentioned it on several occasions, not now only) but the facts are clear here. If someone tells me "I can KO you with one swing" and when it comes down to it he can't deliver one proper punch what else am I supposed to think except "boo hoo, you were bluffing" ?

[rafael1932]

miria was talking to herself and not for the twin. so she is not trying to trick anyone and can actually «I can KO you with one swing». or it is what she belives - and since she is a damn veteran at this point why should we take her word

[Elandyll]

Cassandra of the Shifting Sands/ Dust

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by rafael1932

miria was talking to herself and not for the twin. so she is not trying to trick anyone and can actually «I can KO you with one swing». or it is what she belives - and since she is a damn veteran at this point why should we take her word

It means she overestimated herself just as I've written in this post. In other words she was deceiving herself.

As for Cassandra, how about "Cassandra of a not-so-faint blush" ;P ?

[haegar]

Originally Posted by Gooral

@haegar
As for losing concentration because of Raftela, I see it as an advantage not disadvantage. Because of it Miria's moves became harder to read and more unpredictable since even though she wanted to cut more to the right she went more to the left or even though she wanted to hit with a blunt side something got wrong. She didn't suddenly slow down because of Raftela, she started hitting at strange angles.

Sorry but if that is the line of argument you choose than we must end it as this point - because here you lost me, like completely. Please reread the highlighted line out of context. Let it sink. Then try putting it back into context. It'll refuse to make sense either way

to further drive the point home another stupid stargate quote (they are surpisingly useful...)
a: for christ's sake, they nearly KILLED you!!!
b: in the media that worked in our favour.
a: HOW DOES DYING WORK IN OUR FAVOUR?!?!

edit: anyways, take your time with the reply, will be back very late only

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Add to that the fact that it's very difficult that the org sent the n.1 and the n.5 in the same missions (the only occasions where Cassy uses her "special style".
The best possibility imo was for Roxy to ask directly Cassy to let her copy the technique.

I think Roxanne would use her ability to conceal her presence and that's how she would observe how Cassandra would use her technique. It wasn't mentioned either if Cassandra informed Roxanne anything about her technique. And perhaps their areas were near so it was easier for her to spy on Cassandra.

[Gooral]

@haegar
So in the end you couldn't refute my arguments and ignored the other part. As for the quoted part, the moves became more unpredictable and more random. Miria didn't hit where she wanted to and it was harder to predict them because of a sudden change. Miria didn't slow down and she didn't go faster, she just started aiming at different parts which she didn't know herself. All she had to do was to change her pace in the same way and the way she swung her sword and go for the neck and incapacitate the twins but she couldn't do a thing to them until Raftela messed her up, let alone cut their heads off. So yeah, in that sense Raftela helped her.

Edit:
Has anyone else noticed and finds it strange that when Cassandra has released her youki the sound was different than usual? Instead of biki biki we have biri biri. Maybe she has some super-youki or something ;P? There was also boko boko made by Alicia.

[SagaraSouske]

I have been in the camp of those that support claymore's youki grow through usage and training since the beginning. Clare's growth and to a lesser extend the ghosts' growth have given strong indication of such despite other possible explanations. It seems to me the story of Roxanne reinforce that theory, especially when someone with a rank and youki level of 35 was able to grow to become No 1 and have the much higher youki level to support it without having the half awakening excuse. It also confirms that combat experience and skill can be improved other then fighting strong opponents. In Roxanne's case it may be copying other's techniques (both physically and youki usage), others can improve to a lesser extend by simply observing, training and learning from others.

Unless Roxanne's introduction is a misdirection of some sort, there is no real reason to suspect that she is a monster in disguise and laying low at rank 35. It was indicated that the youki cloaking ability of hers was developed much later and generally the Org have pretty good idea of what rank each claymore becomes when they are graduating from trainees. It would be very difficult for someone of a No 1 caliber to hide herself and be assigned to 35th. Her youki sync ability could have been missed by the Org and it def would have put her above 35 but certainly not anywhere close to single digits. It's through her copying others(in the process also training with those she is copying) and combining with many AB hunt missions that allowed her to grow both her combat mastery and youki level.

I also want to reiterate the thought I have on claymore techniques and nick names. Yagi sensei seems to have set a model for claymores in that their nickname is frequently derived from their signature techniques(those that have them), and that a claymore's signature technique is a distilled core of their entire combat experience from their years of fighting and training. Thus, what Roxanne did is essentially using her special technique (copying) to sprint board herself pass others much faster then claymores naturally gain combat experiences. In training and copying from those 'teachers' she eventually disposed of, she basically 'absorbed' their combat experience into her and greatly shortened the time she needed to develop naturally.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Isley, Luciela, Riful were stated to be stronger than all but maybe eight other number ones.

Source? About what 8 other number ones are you talking?
I will answer your posts at the weekend when i have some time on my hands

to me it is clear that
1. Roxanne really WAS that week at the beginning.
2. Like Cylar in Heroes has the ability to absorb powers which goes wayyyy beyond training and observation of techniques.

Only one quote what irene said to ALREADY half-awakened and single digit niveau claire and i hope this will contribute to stop this madness about miria being number one material or dragon ball like hard-work-powerups:

Originally Posted by IreneChapter38

what the qs needs above all else is a strong spirit, the most important thing is to stay calm.
I think you've advanced towards that end.
but still...
You already appear calm on the surface but inside you are a whirlwind of passion.
As soon as you start the yoma energy in you arm will pull the rest of your spirit along.
That means you can't continue for more than one minute.
At best your speed and power are less than one tenth of mine. It takes time for uou to gater the spiritual concentration, and you have no leeway to extend your endurance. That means you'll never really be able to use the quicksword technique
You've done the best you can. I give you that much credit.
A parting gift take it.
If you use that arm even if your endurance doesn't change both your speed and power will be HALF of min and you'll be able to use the quicksword. YOU CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT IT!!!

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Before killing her idols,she went with them in several missions,and sometimes they also became a famous duo inside the org, to achieve something like that it means that Roxy stayed with her victims for months,almost surely even a few years......

But even if i would have been imprissoned in alcatraz 10 years with albert einstein there is no way i could have surpass him in quantum physics.
this means only that she needs that long time to accomodate to the power of their victims.
IMO she perhaps somehow permanently addapts/synchronizes herself to the victims yoki so that she changes her body on a cellular level or something like that.It is more than simple synchronisation, i want to say.

[carbontaxes]

Personally I don't think that yoki power is the end-all be-all of the fighting prowess of in this world. Yes certainly, there is a very strong relationship between yoki power and fighting ability/AB forms. But we also see a pathetic yoki endowed hybrid like Clare defeat Rigauld, who had like 10x the yoki as she, or more who knows really. So there is something(s) else that can influence a battle and fighting ability other than direct yoki and sometimes (like Clare/Rigauld) that something(s) else results in a highly unexpected result.

And those who say Miria is weaksauce/not a No.1, based on lack of evidence in the story that displays Miria employing badass No.1 abilities, I'm not going to say that you don't a valid point. But I think there's also a symptom of "camera time" in a story. The camera was 24/7 on freaking Clare and everyone else got far less for the entire 1st half of the series, maybe the author neglected to have Miria bust out some Ub3R-pwn move just yet, and there is still the possibility that she could do such at any time, provided that she doesn't just die in the next couple of chapters or something.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

I think Roxanne would use her ability to conceal her presence and that's how she would observe how Cassandra would use her technique. It wasn't mentioned either if Cassandra informed Roxanne anything about her technique. And perhaps their areas were near so it was easier for her to spy on Cassandra.

Not very belivable imo.
Even if their areas are near (and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have n.1 and n.5 near) it's quite clear that both n.1 and n.5 would have missions one after the other.
Under those circumstances i doubt that Roxy can follow secretly Cassy during her missions since she probably has to follow her own missions.
Also if Cassy is not an idiot she should already have understood that Roxy can hide her presence, so she could be more wary about her surroundings.
If Roxy wants to study well Cassy's technique she has to actually see it....but if Roxy can see Cassy it means that the contrary is also true (she can hide her yoki,but it's not that she is invisible)......so no,imo it's not very belivable for Roxy to continue to spy Cassy to learn her technique.

@irvinethearcher

But even if i would have been imprissoned in alcatraz 10 years with albert einstein there is no way i could have surpass him in quantum physics.
this means only that she needs that long time to accomodate to the power of their victims.
IMO she perhaps somehow permanently addapts/synchronizes herself to the victims yoki so that she changes her body on a cellular level or something like that.It is more than simple synchronisation, i want to say.

I don't get what this have to do with my quote,do you disagree with what i said?
(just to be clear:i'm not provoking you,i really don't understand).