2011-09-11, 13:08 | Link #24341 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It makes sense within my theory that Beatrice is still active post-incident. Touya asserts Battler's existence through his fiction, but that Battler cannot exisit outisde of 1986 Rokkenjima. Similarly, Yasu asserts Beatrice's existence through the bottle conspiracy, but that Beatrice also cannot exist outside of 1986 Rokkenjima. I think it's a reasonable interpretation, at least. |
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2011-09-11, 23:20 | Link #24343 | ||
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This was probably all that Tôya could reconstruct by the time he wrote Alliance and it is what pushed him into his personality crisis at the end in the first place. It's the question wether it's even worth it if he is not even Ushiromiya Battler, which explains the reaction of both Battler and Beatrice if both are only constructed by Tôya in his struggle towards the truth about Battler's memory. Of course after this something different must have occured, as somehow he must have been shown the way outside. I still have the feeling that the whole escape with Beatrice on the 6th is constructed on the part of her being with him. When talking to Yukari he constantly switches between singular and plural when talking about who escaped, which hints towards him actually being alone. The hint would make no sense otherwise and would actually be a clue towards that scene being at least false in terms of Beatrice/Yasu being with him (adding to my theory that this was a gift by Featherine - maybe not even Ikuko - to Tôya to give him closure). There is also the strange way in which Beatrice talks in that scene. Especially the line 「せっかく生きて出られたのに・・・」, which could be "even though you were made to leave the island alive" (though derareta is not clearly passive or potential at this point). She says how he was enabled to leave the island...it is so passively constructed that I highly assume that she actually never left the island with him...probably not even entered the underground harbour with him. Of course I agree, Beatrice in how we see her is a construction made by Tôya. It's an amalgamation of everything his memory could muster up, fused with what Yasu probably inserted into the message bottles and this created what we perceived as the golden witch Beatrice. Of course this sheds a rather strange view on Battler marrying his reborn self in his mind...but could also be viewed as him finally regaining closure and acceptance about what he can actually think of whom, including the woman he obviously was in love with. This also sheds an interesting light on a possible interpretation towards the forced wedding with Erika. It could show how he was (because of his inability to give all his family members absolution) forced to bow to the public opinion, that somebody (like Natsuhi i EP5) was guilty of murder no matter how much he struggles. Only through his Dawn theory was he able to break free from that doubt and totally emerge himself in the fantasy that Yasu had created for him. Thus it ended with him breaking of the marriage with Erika (cold reason) and opened up his future with his very own Beatrice (his own Golden truth). Oh god...it's so cheesy it's sweet again. Quote:
Beatrice the Golden witch is dead either way, as Yasu decided that her role was over as soon as the gold was discovered. Therefore even the scene at the submarine harbour hints at the fact that we are dealing not with the meta-projection of Beatrice the Golden witch that Tôya created after reading the 1st message bottle, but rather a combination of everything that was Yasu. A great hint for me towards that is also the fact that she talks about them arriving at this point and coming back to the point where they met 3 generations ago...which actually shows self-reflection that she sees herself as the lineage of Beatrices starting with Castiglioni and not as the 1000 year old witch which was created by the stories. But not only that... Assuming that Yasu was alive and had suffered amnesia and all her characters are dead because any memory of her was left behind: She could not become Ikuko, as it is quite probable that she found Tôya rather soon after the incident. It must have still been at least within a year, as they would have to start writing, publishing, finding the message bottles, etc. For the Ikuko persona she needs a certain ammount of reputation which could of course have been bought with the right ammount of money, but she wouldn't remember that money or any need to construct a fake personality, let alone Battler, in the first place. So if Yasu actually suffered amnesia it is highly likely that she is not Ikuko. This again makes it not only unlikely that she surived, but also completely irrelevant to the plot, as she does not make any further contact with the characters. Assuming that Yasu was alive and remembered everything and all her characters are dead merely because Yasu decided that they are dead: This would actually imply that she changed her mind at a point that is absolutely unobservable to the reader, something that is not even hinted at. It is a possible solution but calls for the reader to read everything that Beatrice and her characters told us as exactly the opposite and assume that to be true. |
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2011-09-12, 02:55 | Link #24344 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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BATTLER solves Beatrice's game at the end of episode 5; the implied answer is that it's best to believe in his family. We know this was Yasu's intent because BATTLER "understood her game completely". It would be a very strange message to write pre-incident, and hardly one to expect from a premeditating mass murderer. Yasu is a good person who just wanted everyone to be happy. She feels responsible for inadvertently triggering a bloodbath by presenting the gold to the siblings. That is her sin; it's why Beatrice hides in the shadows and why she takes the blame upon herself. Quote:
Kanon is dead. Shannon is dead. In fiction Beatrice can, and does, "kill" them at will. The meaning of metaphorical death isn't consistent anyway:
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2011-09-12, 09:27 | Link #24346 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yes, that Beatrice will never revive again.
It's not just a random quote, it's a red truth. I think that the only way to fully make sense out of EP6 and the Beatrice you see there is to consider "Beatrice" as a character. Not a persona nor a personality, a character. Tohya didn't become Beatrice at any time, he simply managed to revive the character Beatrice, naturally he could only do that if by "Beatrice" we mean "Beatrice" as a character. However the red truth clearly states that that Beatrice will never revive again. This can only mean that the original creator of Beatrice will no longer play that role or use that character. But why? And how could that notion reach the level of a red truth? If it isn't 100% it can't become a red truth. Of course if the original creator is dead that is easily explainable. Now let's say that Yasu survived and that she is Ikuko. But Ikuko technically wrote stories with Beatrice as a character in them. Wouldn't that make that Beatrice revived? Quote:
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You think there is another reason? To make me consider that you should at least try to come up with an explanation and it should be a good one. I guess that the "you can't put this past Ryuukishi" is a good argument in itself, but that alone doesn't work. Just to give you an example of what I mean, last time I talked to chronotrig he told me that in his opionion Tohya is not Battler, Battler died in the incident and all the rest is a lie. So basically the very opposite of what Wanderer sustains. Can you put that past Ryuukishi? No. Does that mean it's automatically true? No. Does that make it probable? Yet again, no. Quote:
Whether that's true or not, it's not like Battler doesn't believe her. He believes she exists and that she did all that, and yet he is fine with that. There's another thing that it cannot be denied. When Beatrice became the heir Genji must have told her about the bomb. A perfectly sane and responsible person would have disposed off of that monstrosity asap. At the very least she should have made remove the trigger. Knowing about that thing and not doing anything about it is by itself a crime in my view. Knowing that that thing exploded in the end I cannot say that Beatrice didn't have any part on that.
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2011-09-12, 11:42 | Link #24347 |
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Inaction may be culpability, but it isn't necessarily guilt. A reasonable, rational person probably would have ordered the explosives disarmed, but quite honestly we don't even know what the explosives really are or how they're rigged up and most people agree the description of them given in ep7 is impossible, so how they actually work or whether it's even "realistic" that they'd work the way Ryukishi intended is utterly unknown.
Perhaps they're unstable and impossible to disarm. Then you still owe people a warning to leave the island, but that's slightly different from the culpability level of being able to defuse it and not doing so. Or perhaps they could have been disarmed, but Yasu was in no mind to really think about that at the time. Dealing with a lot of heavy stuff, perhaps slipping into depression, she just never brought it up again and Genji didn't suggest disarming it. We can also consider that events may not have actually played out exactly as ep7 suggests. It's possible Yasu wasn't actually told for whatever reason. Or didn't believe it. Or figured they were inert 40 years after the fact. Perhaps she had no way to check. Perhaps GenSawaJo lied to her. Perhaps True Culprit X knew she'd want it disabled, told her he'd done so, but really hadn't. Perhaps it's all B.S. and there really weren't explosives and your volcano theory or a mudslide is actually what happened. Who knows? Maybe those parts of ep7 detailing the bomb mechanism were wild speculation. Remember where the part where Beatrice goes over the arming device in intricate detail appears. Sure, there's mention of it elsewhere, but there's no telling. To suggest any person (Yasu or otherwise) deliberately armed the bomb is to suggest either that they intended to kill anyone who remained alive in the vicinity of the mansion at the time of detonation or that they believed everyone in the vicinity to be dead and intended to destroy everything to cover it up (for one reason or another). There is some understandable justification for the latter, none really for the former. And in any event, I find it hard to believe Yasu capable of doing the former, but I could see her doing the latter. Quite easily in fact. But I don't believe she'd do that unless she knew (or genuinely believed) no one would actually be killed.
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2011-09-12, 12:04 | Link #24348 |
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I'll toss in a couple of theories... okay, more than a couple. As usual they could need to undergo under revision once I'll read the whole version of Ep 8.
Yasu began writing about the Rokkenjima murders before the Rokkenjima incident, either for fun or either to emulate Maria. Later those tales became or were rewritten to become the message bottles. (which were either sent before or after the incident, I'll leave this part up to you)
This work either if you believe Yasu didn't want to kill anyone on Rokkenjima or if she killed someone in the end. I doubt Yasu started out deciding to kill everyone. It's not so easy to turn yourself into a murderer, especially when some of the people involved are friends. Writing about killing sometimes might help getting rid of your frustration... sometimes however can become an obsession and get you in the right set of mind (of course if you're having mind problems at the moment...) Either way in this way she would have all the time to premeditate the thing without having at first a killing intent. Feel free to choose if she built it up later. Also she would have the time to work carefully on the plot that later would be used for the messages in the bottles. The messages known are at least 3, possibly more. She needed time to study the plot to make it good. Also, in Ep 1 is implied that typhoons often happened when there was a family meeting (the siblings talk about how it would be a good idea to change the day of the meeting just for this) so it could be that the typhoon was part of the original plot of the tales already, or that it was edited in later. Do your pick. On Rokkenjima, around the time of the family conference was usually kept an Halloween party, at least when Kinzo was alive, in which were also made jokes and games. It's said by Ep 8. In Ep 2 however Maria doesn't seem to expect it, although she sort of get her wish. It's possible that Natsuhi and Krauss didn't make an Halloween party the year before when Kinzo was dead using the excuse he was in a bad mood so the fact that there could be a Halloween party in 1986 wasn't an ordinary fact anymore. In 1986 it was decided by someone to revive the Halloween party. The game is supposed to be a mystery based on Yasu's tales and involving the witch epitaph. For Yasu however the purpose is to decide how to deal with Battler and George. Toya remembers having been challenged into something that was a mystery game (if the summary I read is not wrong). Now if people were to die for real 'mystery game' would be a very soft term to describe serial murders... though since he can't remember things well it might still work. Also in Ep 4 it was pointed out how Jessica's phone call was weird, as if she knew how she would die but wasn't threatened into making it. If Jessica was told it was a game and how silly they had been into believing in the story of the magic holes and how now she was supposed to make a phone call in which she would trick Battler it would fit. Later she was killed (as Krauss was killed after a phonecall in Ep 5). In the beginning who 'died' in the mystery game wasn't really supposed to die but merely tp play dead. Yasu needed accomplices to make the mystery game work, even if she was merely planning to fake her own dead. I can't believe Nanjo, Gohda or Kumasawa would side with her if they were to know she planned a serial murder. However everyone would feel it was his duty to help if it was a game to humour the family. I've no idea if the game managed to reach the point of fake death because... Someone either solved the epitaph or found the gold with other means. The adults were likely involved in the discovering of the gold. It's possible Battler was involved as well. Once they did they got some explanations by 'Beatrice'. The gold was definitely discovered since Eva could use the tunnel for Kuwadorian and get Kinzo's ring. For Toya to also have knowledge of many of the things involving the gold is necessary he either got a separate explanation later or that he was present when the others figured out the explanation. My best guess to who solved the epitaph is Battler and Eva together (in place of Battler and Erika in Ep 5) but with minor hints from the rest of the family. It's possible, that prior or after or during this moment 'Beatrice' tossed in the topic of Battler's sin. I don't really know about this one. The scene might have been similar to the one in Ep 4 or pretty different. Surely the topic must have popped up for Toya to know that his actions were what caused 'Beatrice''s actions though the original scene could have been different by what we see in Ep 4. Once the gold was found murders began to happen for real. Do your pick for the reason: incident, paranoyc behaviour (be it because if one died for incident the other might have been scared and do not realize it was an incident and overreacted... Rosa, for example, might have issues with seeing dead people with head splits open), killing intent, a moment of rage that caused people to forget that if you push a trigger you might kill someone... Murders escalates. It's possible Battler gets shot as well. Yasu, who might have considered being the only one who would die that night, changes her mind and drags him away from the island. Eva either knows or believes she's the only survivor and covers up everything using the bomb. It seems in Ep 8 he complained he had abdominal pain. Sure, it doesn't necessary mean a bullet but in Ep 3 he had a flash in which he was shot. Note that it's very random as Eva apparently shot him all of sudden for no reason at all and we know she wasn't the sole culprit due to Nanjo's death. In addition to this it's the only game in which Battler knows how he died. I'm not sure however it was Eva who shot him. Toya is aware that Kyrie, despite never showing it, despised his existence due to Asumu (Kyrie felt jealous for 18 years, which is Battler's age, not 12, which is the time that Asumu's marriage lasted). It's possible Rudolf managed to tell him the truth about his mother (or that he found it out somehow) but that Kyrie didn't know it. Having your own mother shooting at you might have been definitely traumatic. Also Battler and trembling boats do not get along well, we're told this ab nauseam so it's rather hard to picture he would calmly get on a boat if he was conscious. If given the choise he would likely choose to go to Kuwadorian or, at least, to the forest, not to escape on a boat. Battler, either due to blood loss or psychological trauma loses his memory. Yasu takes the identity of Ikuko, which she likely prepared previously. Now, I'm not sure why she prepared it. It's possible Yasu knew she would never be able to manage to marry George or to be Jessica's boyfriend so the fact that, there would have been a tragedy no matter in which year Battler were to return, although if he were to chose another year it would be smaller, would refer to both Shannon and Kanon disappearing, maybe simulating suicide and taking Ikuko's identity. Maybe there's another reason I can't think of at the moment and that will dawn on me once I'll read the Ikuko's part. In short: Yasu didn't mean to kill anyone which is why Toya, knowing the truth, can get over what she did just fine. Likely Kyrie and/or Rudolf killed someone and possibly Eva too. Toya probably merely decided to deal with it remembering their best sides and not what had happened in the Rokkenjima incident. For Toya/Battler to forgive Beatrice so easily if she were to be the real culprit would be a little too much. But, if she planned to 'murder' only in a game and not for real and real murders happened for another reason, it might be easy to get over it. Ep 8 is mostly focused on the importance of remembering the good sides of his family, completely neglecting who was the culprit. By the time Toya wrote Ep 8 the culprit/culprits was/were likely dead so no justice could be found. Living in hate of the culprit would have been painful so he probably decided to forgive and forget and pretend all that had happened had been an INCIDENT. Now, it's hard to explain so many deaths with the word 'incident'. I can believe some people were shot by incident but the death count is definitely too high to label everything as 'incident' so I think this is merely his own personal embellishment of the truth. There are some other theories on which I'm working and that regard Rokkenjima Prime but, for now, I'll stop here. |
2011-09-12, 12:20 | Link #24349 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Here, I'll help: Of course the obvious explanation would be that Beatrice was "alive" purely as a meta-projection of Touya's mind created by his memories and reading of the bottle-stories, who later became convinced that Beatrice was an illusion, which triggered her "death" in such a way that she could no longer be revived in the same form. However, if you follow this line of reasoning, then that Beatrice really belonged to Touya all along; whether she is "alive" or not is purely a matter of whether Touya recognizes her as such and the life or death status of Touya's Beatrice is a separate matter than that of Yasu's Beatrice. Quote:
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2011-09-12, 12:32 | Link #24350 | ||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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So... hum... I don't know. In Ep 4 it's implied Yasu might have been drunk when he played Beatrice's role in that moment, so this can have helped her to act like that even if in truth 'Beatrice' wasn't at all that energetic. It can also be that Yasu confronted Battler about the promise, he said he didn't remember, either because he didn't or because he knew Shannon and George were a couple and Yasu got so hurt by this that, when she faced the siblings, she was completely demotivated. Quote:
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However for me the scene is full of metaphors (even them escaping with the gold... Yasu must know they couldn't change it with real money without connections so dragging the gold with them would be pointless... the PIN of the bank account would be much better) so I guess my interpretation differ from yours. Quote:
In Ep. 3 Battler saves Beato’s heart from being crushed. She later will save him from Eva Beatrice. In Ep 4 Beatrice asks Battler to put an end to her pain killing her (if you want it can be read as saving her from the pain) and he agrees. She will concede him the victory although Lambda and Bern will confirm Battler’s ideas weren’t right. In Ep 5 Battler helps her to escape from Kinzo’s room and tries to defend her and Natsuhi. He’s willing to risk his own existence for this. We can’t quite say Beato saved him back, although Battler inherited her titles and powers and, in a fashion, the fact he kept trying to think at their previous games trying to figure her out ‘saved him’. In Ep 6 Battler gives Beato a new body, then does everything he can to correct the logic error, apart from using Kanon, apparently in hope that Beato would regain memory. Beato regains memory and saves Battler. Actually Ep 8 too has Beato showing Battler a way to escape and Battler trying to save Beato from sinking and, when he couldn’t deciding to sink with her. So it's possible that Battler had done something that could be labelled as 'helping/saving her' and that pushed her to return the favor, chosing to live. I've still no idea why she prepared Ikuko's identity beforehand. I can toss in a couple of theories but I'd like to have more direct knowledge about that part first... |
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2011-09-12, 12:40 | Link #24351 | ||||
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Actually I'll be more surprised if Yasu is really dead... |
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2011-09-12, 13:15 | Link #24352 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I'd like to add that in "Jessica and the Killer Electric Fan", Jessica writes a play in which her friend Saku's character is dragged through various horrible experiences because Saku annoyed her and she wanted to vent.
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2011-09-12, 13:26 | Link #24353 | |
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2011-09-12, 13:27 | Link #24354 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Each time Battler tried to resurrect the first Beato we see she's an illusion. I guess for him believing her to be real would be like for us to believe Santa Claus is real after knowing he's not. We can't force ourself to ignore the fact we know Santa Claus is not real, in the same way Battler can't force himself to ignore the first Beato wasn't real, he just made them up. Quote:
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Just joking, my reason is the one I've explained previously. Beato can't be revived because now Toya knows the truth about her. It's also possible that Ikuko is not helping as maybe she's not really in a rush to admit she's Yasu and Toya can't prove it. Ep 6 it's based mostly on the attempt of the new Beato and Battler to get along as well as the efforts from Battler to get Beato to 'remember' while instead she tries to be what he wants her to be. I tend to replace 'remember' with 'admit' when I apply the thing to Toya and Ikuko. Ep 7 must have been done following Yasu's confession so my theory is that Ep 6 is a metaphor to represent the fact that Toya managed to get her to admit it and Ep 7 is merely her giving him that part of info he couldn't know because they regarded Yasu directly. To go further in this there's another person that can't be resurrected and that person is the 12 year old Shannon that Battler loved. Even if she and Ikuko are the same person how many years had gone? She likely changed not just in body but also in personality and I don't know if she would be capable to go back to how she was before. Likely she was different from 12 year old Shannon in 1986 already, since the game remarks that Shannon is slightly different from how she was as a kid. I think most of Battler's affection for Beatrice is a projection of the affection for 12 year old Shannon. Now, nothing stopped him from having feelings for her again in 1986 or for Ikuko but I guess the fact that 12 year old Shannon, 1986 Shannon and Ikuko are likely different one from another didn't made the switching so smooth in the same way as he at first couldn't get along with new Beato. Quote:
So, as Kinzo died and she saw Krauss was having financial troubles and to cover up things Natsuhi decided to lie to everyone and pretend Kinzo was alive, she decided to let them deal with the mess he caused on their own. It's not kind but it's understandable enough she wasn't all rainbows and sunshine toward them. As for the bomb she might have dismissed it with the silly idea that 'since it didn't blow up previously as long as no one touches it, it won't blow up now'. Not what I'll think, honestly, but I saw older people thinking stupider things so I wouldn't be surprised. |
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2011-09-12, 14:49 | Link #24355 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re-reading some of RKs interviews, he keeps mentioning that posting the truth point blank would be rude to the people that reached it. Its one of those lines that he keeps repeating that makes me roll my eyes. I really cant imagine people that wouldn't mind having more closure to the events in Umineko.
Then I started thinking , what if these people aren't real? Maybe he's honoring their wishes instead. |
2011-09-12, 14:57 | Link #24356 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And editing is all but impossible when your story is hand-written, you know. It's all nonsense; you're wasting your energies giving it this much consideration. The best answer for non-post-writing is that she wrote 2 or 3 stories in the day or so prior or maybe even overnight between the 5th and 6th. Quote:
It explains the phone calls in Alliance fairly well. You also mentioned Yasu using it to make a decision between Battler and George. Well, if you add her two other favorite people: Jessica (her third love interest) and Maria (her best friend), it makes the setup for the cousins' "trials" in Alliance pretty interesting. Although convincing Battler and the cousins (unless they were in on it too) that Kinzo has been killing his own family for some kind of ritual is certainly not my idea of fun. And there's the fact that everyone died in reality, and that apparently Yasu was the last alive and committed actual suicide in a way that makes it look like she was killed by someone else. Also very strange is how the perpetrator set everything up to present murder scenes to Battler that were logically consistent with the detailed magical narrative told to him earlier "for fun". There's also the problem with "fake" deaths that cannot be easily faked in other stories, such as Turn's first twilight. So yeah, the theory that the stories reflect a murder "game" planned by Yasu, which makes pre-incident-writing considerably more viable, has a lot of things going for it, but also has its problems. Every "version" of this Halloween game that we are presented is in bad taste, but at least it allows an avenue for Yasu to have written the fictions pre-incident without being outright evil. In any case, if these stories were written just for fun make-believe, you would still have to explain why they were put to sea. |
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2011-09-12, 15:58 | Link #24357 |
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Who actually knows what the weather was like on Rokkenjima on that day?
Serious question. What witnesses do we have to the weather conditions? Kawabata brings people to the island on the 4th; it's threatening a storm but clear. He comes back on the 6th, it's clear again. Exactly how much rain there was on the ensuing days is left somewhat open. Even the message bottles sort of forget that it's supposed to be raining on the 5th. If it was. I don't know. Actually, there is one person: Eva. But did Eva ever comment on the message bottles, or was she aware of them? Anyway, we actually know only that the weather patterns in the stories are consistent with each other, which is fine. While I'm sure you could verify if they were wrong later, I'd think other factual errors like "Eva being dead" were more obvious than "it probably only rained for about 5 hours, according to the weather service."
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2011-09-12, 16:13 | Link #24358 |
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People could have back checked the weather of the day and confirmed that it didnt rain 2 days straight in that area so the concept of just raining a few hours would have been shot down and we would have known about it. A storm might not be such an eventful thing, but one that took place during what people though was an unfortunate event that took out nearly all of one the most influential families in the area might be more eventful.
I dont think Eva knew about the actual bottles but she should have known about the conspiracies that she was involved in the event. I like to imagine Eva turning off the TV the moment a piece about rokkenjima came out, or walking out of a conversation the moment it was mentioned. So knowing things like the bottle letters would be pretty hard, unless the police brought her in and showed her the letter they found. |
2011-09-12, 16:16 | Link #24359 | |
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It would also bolster the pre-event writing idea, since it's much more likely a person would guess the weather and be a bit wrong than write afterward and still screw it up. There would still be thematic reasons to do it, but it's not as strong.
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2011-09-12, 16:25 | Link #24360 |
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Sorry you replied before I updated it. There would be written evidence about the weather thanks to the event in Rokkenjima. News would have mentioned something like Eva taking refuge in a building for a day or two while the stormed passed. She had to wait till the boat got there. Meteorological data would have backed up her claim or else she would have been caught in a lie.
The second option is that there was little to no rain, given these conditions fishermen or some others would have seen the smoke and fire from the debris and would have gotten there quicker. |
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