Claymore Chapter 119

[Nixl]

Suppression does impart an element of surprise, however, it is not unique to Priscilla. Furthermore, the the shear advantage imparted by Teresa's perception, Miria's phantom, or Raftela's mind hack is far greater than suppression in my opinion. Against Agatha, the ghosts made their presence known to Agatha rather than make a surprise attack. What won the battle swiftly was Claire's quicksword, Helen's drill, Miria's phantom, and Tabitha's perception.

Without the element of surprise what other advantage does suppression give? Also, Priscilla threw away the advantage of surprise by not stabbing Teresa in the back. Although it did help her by partially nullifying Teresa's perception she had little combat experience and virtually no experience with yoki. Priscilla had no technique that modified her offensive or defensive potential, while Teresa did.

I am not trying to make this in a TvP debate of who is the greater super-saiyin, but the fact that Priscilla lasted against a veteran warrior such as Teresa when she did not have Noel's speed, Sophia's strength, a technique like Irene's, or any experience is telling. In truth, I do think Priscilla has more yoki, because she is just an engine of spite. However, that does not, in my opinion, mean she is stronger than Teresa. Teresa has a special ability which nullifies other opponents advantages, she has experience, grit that Priscilla does not have, and most importantly she is a card-board cut-out of a generic shounen badass with tits. Whoops, looks like my anti-Teresa/Badass-who-finds-a-heart cliche came out.

Edit: This reminds me of another topic. To me, Priscilla appears to be an archetype of a somewhat typical shounen protagonist, but gone very very wrong. She believes in justice and her true power is hidden, which seems to reek of former shounen heroes. I guess part of the reason I like Priscilla is that Priscilla started off a blatant shounen archetype, but goes horribly wrong. I kind of liked that difference in Claymore where that character gets wronged/screwed up and becomes something else.

[Shiek927]

Roflmao, beware; if this starts a versus war, I blame you

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Roflmao, beware; if this starts a versus war, I blame you

Yes, it will be my fault. Too bad I remembered too late my idea that Priscilla starts off like a shounen hero or a protagonist, but changes into a villain. Much like Teresa, the badass who finds a heart, dies and Priscilla, the epitome of a shounen hero becomes a monster. The two characters that started out blatant archetypes met atypical ends. Maybe my anti-Teresa would not have popped out in public if I talked about that instead.

edit: I wonder if Teresa4Ever will beat me up and steal my lunch money now. I better have extra duct tape to fix my glasses and my pocket protector fully protected from now on.

edit2: Yononaka said something nice and I just ruined it. /time-out

[Demon6666]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Not necessarily, Teresa was the greatest claymore that ever lived. I'm sure that with around 30% yoki release Teresa could kill awakened priscilla. However, i do not know if awakened Teresa would be stronger than awakened priscilla. AB Teresa would probably win against AB priscilla, But Priscilla does have more Yoki than Teresa.

another thought, If Cassandra awakens and is killed somehow the organization could use the pieces of her flesh to revive other #1's. Or possible make some really strong Abyssal feeders.

I'm not too sure if claymore Teresa can even defeat awakened Priscilla. Teresa was unable to use her acute yoki sending against Priscilla at 80%, so it would be logical to say the technique wouldn't work against her awakened form either due to the massive output of yoki she radiated. So if we assume that Priscilla does indeed have more yoki than Teresa, then it wouldn't matter how much more skilled Teresa is compared to her, she would lose due to difference in speed/power alone.

Teresa herself seemed to think that Priscilla was a monster, even by her standards. For someone like Teresa to call someone else a monster must really mean something. (remember how she annihilated rosemary who could have had a power that rivalled one of the big three.)

and perhaps your right, maybe thats why Dae chose to resurrect those three, so they could awakened and be killed off so he could use their body parts to ressurect other warriors. that would be a little ridiculous plot wise though i think, but it seems to make sense. I've always wondered what cistina the divine oracle could do anyway. Oracle means to predict the future, so perhaps she had a galatea/ Teresa hybrid technique?

[creb]

It amazes me how may readers fell for the same claptrap that Irene herself did. Yoki sensing might have been stated by Irene as Teresa's "special" ability, but she found out for herself just how wrong she was when Teresa didn't need to use Yoki sensing to defeat Priscilla. All that claptrap about how Noel, Sophia, and even Irene herself were "superior" to Teresa in their respective areas was more nonsense spoken from a perspective (Irene's) that proved to be utterly wrong when Teresa easily defeated all of them. As Irene famously understated, "have I underestimated her yet again?" The whole narrative is basically a poster-child example of the 'unreliable narrator'.

The truth is, unless Yagi goes insane and decides to not only bring Teresa back, but then have her fight people where she really goes all out, we'll never really know how strong she is. Now, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, can we go just one month without a Teresa vs Priscilla devolution of a chapter thread?

[Nixl]

Nope, I could not help myself. Just had to get a little punch in there. Simply could have walked away, but I just had to Creb.

At least I remembered a point about Priscilla's archetype I've been meaning to state for a while, but kept forgetting. *shakes fist at Starcraft*

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by creb

Now, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, can we go just one month without a Teresa vs Priscilla devolution of a chapter thread?

Never fear, Creb... I'm not that easily baited.

[MalakTawus]

Nixl, the argument about Teresa having a special ability while Prissy having nothing is totally meaningless since Teresa couldn't use that ability against Prissy anyway.........

....also we can stay here discussing for years,but with the current infos that we have it's 100% impossible to determine which one between Prissy and Teresa had more yoki power,all we know is that Teresa was A LOT stronger.

[Demon6666]

Just a quick count, how Many people want yagi to bring Teresa back to life in one form or another? Or just let her be dead and keep her a legend?

My fear is that if Yagi brings Teresa back, it might undo the very foundation the dark-fantasy this manga was built on. But if done properly (yagi Appears to be a very good storywritter) it could work I suppose and would have my full support.

[Dark Night]

It's like Yagi went out of his way to keep Teresa's exact power a mystery, so I don't understand how it can be claimed that Priscilla had more yoki.

I think it's not agreed upon whether Rosemary was truly an Abyssal One, but even if, for argument's sake, she was nothing more than a number 2, once she awakened her yoki should be at least in the SS category (I personally would put her in the SSS category).

Teresa at 10% was so far above Rosemary that the latter called her a monster. Now consider 30%, 50%, and 80%. And it seems from there to awakening there's more than a mere 20% involved.

An awakened Teresa's yoki would be in the EX category but to be honest, I didn't see any indication at all that Priscilla had more yoki.

[fraktur]

every month the chapter thread derails into a tvp debate. every single month. theresa isn't even in the manga anymore but this claymore board still seems to revolve around her. and it's not like we learn something new or get new points which could be used in an argument. no! every single month people just state the same opinions which where old a few years ago. just imagine for a moment that she lived. do you think we would even care about the chapter? actually i'm sure the "chapter" threads would be just a collection of how awesome her hair looked or how cool her smile was as she killed xy. so, to answer demon6666s question: i'm glad she died and she better stays that way otherwise every single character will be reduced to background imagery.

[Dark Night]

I credit Yagi for creating a character some dearly love and others love to hate, and then giving her an exit that is controversial to say the least. You see, I consider Teresa badass, but she didn't go out in a blaze of glory as you would expect of such a character, no, Yagi is not that nice.

I'm not opposed to her return, but not in a happy ending sort.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Demon6666

Just a quick count, how Many people want yagi to bring Teresa back to life in one form or another? Or just let her be dead and keep her a legend?

My fear is that if Yagi brings Teresa back, it might undo the very foundation the dark-fantasy this manga was built on. But if done properly (yagi Appears to be a very good storywritter) it could work I suppose and would have my full support.

I ABSOLUTELY don't want Teresa to come back to life,Claire is Teresa's legacy and should remain that way imo.

...but i wouldn't mind one last encounter between Claire and Teresa inside the "mental-world", but nothing in the "real-world".

I credit Yagi for creating a character some dearly love and others love to hate, and then giving her an exit that is controversial to say the least. You see, I consider Teresa badass, but she didn't go out in a blaze of glory as you would expect of such a character, no, Yagi is not that nice.

*Think what happened to Isley*
*Think what happened to Riful*
*Think what happened to Luciela*
*Think what happened to Ali and Beth*

WHOAH!!! Yagi really doesn't like to give "glorious endings" to his "glorious characters" (well,the most powerful.....) ,all of them died in a quite strange,unexpected or disappointing way.
Yagi can be so cruel.....

Edit:Just to be clear,i like those endings since they are very different from usual,but i really hope that Claire and Prissy will have a "great ending" to their situation with an amazing battle (not necessarily ending with the death of one of the two).

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Nixl

Suppression does impart an element of surprise, however, it is not unique to Priscilla. Furthermore, the the shear advantage imparted by Teresa's perception, Miria's phantom, or Raftela's mind hack is far greater than suppression in my opinion. Against Agatha, the ghosts made their presence known to Agatha rather than make a surprise attack. What won the battle swiftly was Claire's quicksword, Helen's drill, Miria's phantom, and Tabitha's perception.

Without the element of surprise what other advantage does suppression give? Also, Priscilla threw away the advantage of surprise by not stabbing Teresa in the back. Although it did help her by partially nullifying Teresa's perception she had little combat experience and virtually no experience with yoki. Priscilla had no technique that modified her offensive or defensive potential, while Teresa did.

I am not trying to make this in a TvP debate of who is the greater super-saiyin, but the fact that Priscilla lasted against a veteran warrior such as Teresa when she did not have Noel's speed, Sophia's strength, a technique like Irene's, or any experience is telling. In truth, I do think Priscilla has more yoki, because she is just an engine of spite. However, that does not, in my opinion, mean she is stronger than Teresa. Teresa has a special ability which nullifies other opponents advantages, she has experience, grit that Priscilla does not have, and most importantly she is a card-board cut-out of a generic shounen badass with tits. Whoops, looks like my anti-Teresa/Badass-who-finds-a-heart cliche came out.

Edit: This reminds me of another topic. To me, Priscilla appears to be an archetype of a somewhat typical shounen protagonist, but gone very very wrong. She believes in justice and her true power is hidden, which seems to reek of former shounen heroes. I guess part of the reason I like Priscilla is that Priscilla started off a blatant shounen archetype, but goes horribly wrong. I kind of liked that difference in Claymore where that character gets wronged/screwed up and becomes something else.

Well, it's not just the element of surprise per se -- if we look at TvP, it's not like Priscilla herself was hidden. It's not just them physically being hidden, if that's the situation; what's important is that their yoki is hidden which, in a sense, makes them transparent. If their yoki is hidden, they are in a sense, invisible, because the opponent now has to rely on their eyes and ordinary senses to locate and detect their opponent which, as we've seen in Riful and Agatha, can be very frustrating.

I wouldn't also say that sensory-perception nullifies other people's advantages....it's an extremely practical skill that works almost (key word, almost) against any opponent or situation, but it's far from perfect (unlike Spider-Man's spider-sense for instance, it doesn't instinctually guide the opponent to or away from the opponent -- experience is still needed to defeat the opponent), and it certainly doesn't nullify people's advantages. Again, in the case of TvP, her perception was useless and other factors are what made Teresa win in the sword-duel (experience, Priscilla's pride in not striking her back as you said, etc).

[Demon6666]

Originally Posted by fraktur

every month the chapter thread derails into a tvp debate. every single month. theresa isn't even in the manga anymore but this claymore board still seems to revolve around her. background imagery.

I don't know about you but ever since yagi introduced the idea that a person can be reformed through the power of conciousness, it still could be possible that Teresa may appear again in the manga. (Think how Rafaela's conciousness was reformed by the power of Clare's own memories of her.) a similar scenario with Teresa may be possible at a later stage.

Though I understand your frustration. Teresa is just an awesome character (in my opinion), and it's only natural she would have a lot of fans. Yagi knows this, and he could very well do something with it. Who knows.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by fraktur

every month the chapter thread derails into a tvp debate. every single month. theresa isn't even in the manga anymore but this claymore board still seems to revolve around her. and it's not like we learn something new or get new points which could be used in an argument. no! every single month people just state the same opinions which where old a few years ago. just imagine for a moment that she lived. do you think we would even care about the chapter? actually i'm sure the "chapter" threads would be just a collection of how awesome her hair looked or how cool her smile was as she killed xy. so, to answer demon6666s question: i'm glad she died and she better stays that way otherwise every single character will be reduced to background imagery.

To be fair (1) the last few pages we have actually had a very different TvP debate that talked little of powerlevels and more of Priscilla's tactics and (2) I started this derailment unintentionally (well probably intentionally), so the blame is mine alone.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Nixl

edit2: Yononaka said something nice and I just ruined it. /time-out

You bastard!

Originally Posted by fraktur

every month the chapter thread derails into a tvp debate. every single month. theresa isn't even in the manga anymore but this claymore board still seems to revolve around her.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the board revolving around her if that's what keeps people motivated (lest they become like me ), but I definitely agree that the individual chapter threads should not double as "TvP part ***". The only excuse I can see for persistent TvP in chapter threads is that the titular TvP thread is technically restricted to discussing "what happened" only and the TvP topics tend to be broader than that. I think this restriction should be officially removed and all TvP talk that's not closely relevant to a particular chapter should go in there. (Edit: Exempting stuff like the mostly Teresa-free Priscilla discussion that was had here recently, as there's no dedicated place for such things.)

[rafael1932]

Something wrong with pris. If her ability is perfect for backstab, why she won’t use it ? I know the answer, just saying that this ability should be given to a person that like to do this

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

I ABSOLUTELY don't want Teresa to come back to life,Claire is Teresa's legacy and should remain that way imo.

...but i wouldn't mind one last encounter between Claire and Teresa inside the "mental-world", but nothing in the "real-world".

I completely agree with this. As much as I love Teresa, I do think that bringing her back would completely render what Claire has gone through meaningless, weakening the character.

I am rooting for a 5 way discussion in a mental dimension (in the cocoon) between Claire, Teresa, Ilena, Rafaela and Priscilla, so that everyone can get what they have on their chest out, and finally clear up some air

Of course fans of action would probably not like a conversation/ reveals chapter, but I think it's more than overdue by now.

[Dark Night]

Truth be told, 30 pages can only generate so much discussion. We have 30 days (ample time) to pick each page apart. Throw in that there are really smart and analytical people here, and we have covered pretty much everything in like less than 10 days.

So what's left? Teresa vs Priscilla of course. It's that one topic people just can't agree on. And agreeing to disagree is not enough in my opinion, though I'm aware that unless Yagi throws us a few more bones to chew on we'll not get really get far.

For that reason I'm not averse to discussing it. But I guess the older members have been there and done it, so it gets a bit tiring (I read all of the T vs P thread).