[Manga] Chapter 241 Discussion

[Kayess]

Well, I Kurenai seems to be the weakest of the jounins, and Anko gets owned by Orochimaru. Tenten is the weakest of her team. Hinata is the weakest of her team. Shizune gets owned by Kabuto. Hm, I guess there are more strong females than just Tsunade and Temari... but it's like whenever they show fights, it's always the girls who lose.

First of all... how does Kurenai seem to be the weakest of the jounin? We have seen her fight Itachi and Kisame... She would have really done a number on Kisame if it were not for Itachi... and as for losing to Itachi... CAN YOU BLAME HER? He is freaking Itachi....

Anko getting owned by Orochimaru... Once again...can you blame her? He is a freaking Sannin... Orochimaru beat the freaking hokage... do you expect that some special jounin would stand much of a chance against him?

Shizune gets owned by Kabuto? This guy is at Kakashi's level! He is Orochimaru's right-hand man! He obviously has some skill to get such titles...

You are right about the girls always appearing to lose... but that is just because there is no significant female lead yet... Sakura may be "a main character" because she is part of team 7.. but she doesn't change the storyline...

They lose not because they suck.. but because they are put up against stronger enemies... and they are put up against stronger enemies because they have no significant role in the story YET...

[Mezu]

Originally Posted by Kayess

They lose not because they suck.. but because they are put up against stronger enemies... and they are put up against stronger enemies because they have no significant role in the story YET...

Well, Naruto and Sasuke were put up against Orochimaru and he is a stronger enemy. They lost but does that mean he they have no significant role in the story. Also, Sasuke put up more of a fight against Oro then Anko did although her only goal was to commit suicide with him, and of course Oro was playing around with Sasuke, but he was surprised at his techniques. Also, Naruto faced Kabuto, who is at Kakashi's level lol, and beat him. So being put up against stronger enemies has nothing to do with significance and if it does.... it doesnt affect significance in a good or bad way.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Kayess

First of all... how does Kurenai seem to be the weakest of the jounin? We have seen her fight Itachi and Kisame... She would have really done a number on Kisame if it were not for Itachi

Yes, Kurenai has awesome Genjutsu and probably could of done some damage to Kisame alone. But when you have a partner who is a genius and mastered the Sharingan, you tend to let that person do the countering for you. So if Kisame was alone.... he would of went about the situation differently and all fights can end up differently, its just a matter of situation, especially with S-classed ninjas.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Kayess

First of all... how does Kurenai seem to be the weakest of the jounin? We have seen her fight Itachi and Kisame... She would have really done a number on Kisame if it were not for Itachi... and as for losing to Itachi... CAN YOU BLAME HER? He is freaking Itachi....

Anko getting owned by Orochimaru... Once again...can you blame her? He is a freaking Sannin... Orochimaru beat the freaking hokage... do you expect that some special jounin would stand much of a chance against him?

Shizune gets owned by Kabuto? This guy is at Kakashi's level! He is Orochimaru's right-hand man! He obviously has some skill to get such titles...

You are right about the girls always appearing to lose... but that is just because there is no significant female lead yet... Sakura may be "a main character" because she is part of team 7.. but she doesn't change the storyline...

They lose not because they suck.. but because they are put up against stronger enemies... and they are put up against stronger enemies because they have no significant role in the story YET...

You know this is so true. WHy does a character have to suck because they lose to a strong enemy in some people's minds?

"The entire Uchiha Clan most suck because they got beaten by one of their own when he was still a child."

Why? They are regarded as a strong a talented clan. Shouldn't that mean the clans in general suck or does it just mean that their opponent is just that strong?

"ANBU must not be very powerful because they get killed so easily"

Again it isn't a shock to seem them get beat when you look at the opponent. The very fact that Kakashi and others are surprised hwen he group of ANBU get killed should be a testament to their power as well as the one who killed them.

Just because someone gets owned by a tough opponent does not mean they themselves suck in general. How many other average jounin do you think would be beaten by Orochimaru or Itachi or Kabuto that aren't main characters? I'd wager that alot of them would. I think people underestimate the supporting cast way too much.

[NaOH]

i wonder what that stick behine kakashi is for his dad has the same stick.

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by Anthriel

Looks like old Kakashi was an Utilitarist. It's wrong to save your comrade if you sacrifice many other lives to do so. I like him better than current Kakashi.

The word I believe is Utilitarian. I know it's not on topic, but I'm jsut trying to help the non-native speaking. It's always great to broden your vocabulary. On that note, this chapter was great! Who keeps doing those translations for the guy who posted the translation?

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by Kayess

First of all... how does Kurenai seem to be the weakest of the jounin? We have seen her fight Itachi and Kisame... She would have really done a number on Kisame if it were not for Itachi... and as for losing to Itachi... CAN YOU BLAME HER? He is freaking Itachi....

Well, it is mentioned that she just became a jounin, so she's sorta a noob. Furthermore, you have to be a freaking idiot to try to use genjutsu against the very supreme master of the sharingan. She was just asking for an ass-kicking, seriously.

Anko getting owned by Orochimaru... Once again...can you blame her? He is a freaking Sannin... Orochimaru beat the freaking hokage... do you expect that some special jounin would stand much of a chance against him?

No, I don't blame her, that's why I went on to say that maybe there are a few strong women, but that they are always shown losing. And Anko, btw, was being idiotic thinking that she could kill Orochimaru so easily.

They lose not because they suck.. but because they are put up against stronger enemies... and they are put up against stronger enemies because they have no significant role in the story YET...

I know that to lose doesn't mean you are weak, especially when you're up against hard opponents. I also know that the fact that there's only been once in the entire manga that a girl defeated a guy doesn't mean that all of the girls are weak. However, it does add evidence to an inherent sexism in the manga when the only woman shown to have defeated a guy in a fight is a big-breasted woman who obsesses over her looks and whose primary motivation in life is to heal the men with vision around her.

[AkatsukisApprentice]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

... but I do think Kishimoto could have put some stronger female characters in the show, its almost sexist that practically every girl in Naruto is so submissive.....

Thats what you get when a guy writes the storyline I agree more strong women are needed and less amounts of men saving women and more role reversal...lets see the women saving the men..for once

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

I'm drawing that out of more real-world data, which says that men are mostly physically stronger, and have more brain matter dedicated to physical movement.

Well, I Kurenai seems to be the weakest of the jounins, and Anko gets owned by Orochimaru. Tenten is the weakest of her team. Hinata is the weakest of her team. Shizune gets owned by Kabuto. Hm, I guess there are more strong females than just Tsunade and Temari... but it's like whenever they show fights, it's always the girls who lose.

Lol, there've only been a few fights that girls won, and there's only been one fight when a girl actually beat a guy, and that was when Tsunade beat Orochimaru, and that's it. And what did the author decide to make Tsunade's most distinguishing feature? What do fans best remember her by? Her strength? Her medical ability? S(o)meH(o)w I don't think so. Oh, and what else has the author taught the youth of Japan about Konoha's strongest female, that someone so powerful and such an icon for the girl ninjas is so obsessed about her looks that she uses a special jutsu to deceive others about her true age.


Sasuke has done genjutsu (basic bunshin), and probably done it to better effect than Sakura ever has. The extent of Sakura's skill so far is to do the dispelling technique, which is a greatly inferior version of Sasuke's sharingan. Moreover, Sasuke will learn the basic genjutsu techniques inherent to the sharingan. Sakura will never be greater than Sasuke there--it's in his blood.

As to Sakura being a natural... it's sorta like this. Sasuke takes a ninja test, and he scores a one hundred in everything--ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. No one would single out his genjutsu abilities--they'd just say he's a genius, which is what they've done in the manga. Sakura takes the same test, scores 50 in ninjutsu and taijutsu, and an 80 in genjutsu. Therefore one might say she's a natural there, but she's still inferior.

Where in the hell did you get these test results? The ONLY facts we ahve to draw on from the story about Genjutsu abillity is that it was STATED that Sakura's current Genjutsu capability and potential was more then Naruto's and Sasuke's. Thats the ONLY fact we have to draw on, everything else you said is MERELEY speculation and holds NO water in a discussion based on the currently known facts. Therefore, as of RIGHT now Sakura's Genjutsu > Narutos, and Sasukes.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

Where in the hell did you get these test results? The ONLY facts we ahve to draw on from the story about Genjutsu abillity is that it was STATED that Sakura's current Genjutsu capability and potential was more then Naruto's and Sasuke's. Thats the ONLY fact we have to draw on, everything else you said is MERELEY speculation and holds NO water in a discussion based on the currently known facts. Therefore, as of RIGHT now Sakura's Genjutsu > Narutos, and Sasukes.

Well, I was just making up hypothetical test results to illustrate a point as to why someone would say Sakura's talent lies somewhere. But, could you please point me to the quote where it says that Sakura's genjutsu skills are greater than Sasuke's? Because I don't quite recall it as that. I recall it being said that Sakura has a natural talent for genjutsu, and nothing more.

[f00l]

so it seems kakashi intends to correct the "mistake" his father made by caring about comrades first then the mission......i am guessing this is how he lost obito. no wonder he now cares about not letting comrades die i guess he realized his fathers choice was right

[CapoV]

I would like to know as well because we know that she's good at identifying Genjutsu, that was obvious when she blocked the genjutsu at the stadium and was able to identify that fake room at the beginning of the Chunin Exam arc. Sasuke we know can be awesome at genjutsu and is good at it because he'll most likely get the mangekyou sharingan so he can take out Itachi and during his flashback, we see that he ranked first in everything, taijutsu, ninjutsu, strategy??, and genjutsu. If Sakura was better than Sasuke, wouldn't she have ranked higher on that exam than him? Also, Sasuke was also able to identify the fake surroundings.

"Your analytical ability and genjutsu know how is the most improved on our team" - Sasuke to Sakura as translated by Toriyama World.

I wouldn't assume that genjutsu know how is genjutsu techniques because we've never seen her actually use any. However, we've seen her identify genjutsu... but then so can Sasuke because he has the sharingan.

crap. my bad. Genjutsu wasn't on the flashback exam

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

Well, I was just making up hypothetical test results to illustrate a point as to why someone would say Sakura's talent lies somewhere. But, could you please point me to the quote where it says that Sakura's genjutsu skills are greater than Sasuke's? Because I don't quite recall it as that. I recall it being said that Sakura has a natural talent for genjutsu, and nothing more.

I myself do not remember the exact quote verbatim, just a little of it. I vaugley remeber sometihng along the lines of her ahveing a natural/higher natural ability for it. Just the same though, there is no proof whatsoever suggesting Sasuke has a greater level of ninjutsu ability. I've not once seen him use even dispel genjutsu, I tihnk the only genjutsu he can see though are those bunshin.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

I myself do not remember the exact quote verbatim, just a little of it. I vaugley remeber sometihng along the lines of her ahveing a natural/higher natural ability for it. Just the same though, there is no proof whatsoever suggesting Sasuke has a greater level of ninjutsu ability. I've not once seen him use even dispel genjutsu, I tihnk the only genjutsu he can see though are those bunshin.

Exact quote: It was worth teaching you genjutsu during the genin survival training... As I thought, you have a talent for genjutsu.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with her talent in regards to Sasuke's. I mean, good Lord, Kakashi also 'taught' Naruto taijutsu in the genin survival training, and although he used his teaching in devastating results against Gaara, it doesn't mean his taijutsu is above Sasuke's.

Also, I think you meant 'genjutsu' instead of 'ninjutsu' once in there. Sasuke obviously has much greater ninjutsu ability than Sakura. At his first report card at the academy, he lead the entire school in ninjutsu.

And no, his sharingan can see through -all- genjutsu. That's sorta the point of the sharingan.

You're right that we don't know if Sasuke can do dispell, but we know that Sakura doesn't have exclusive rights to it. If you recall, Shikamaru knew it as well. Does that mean he has greater genjutsu ability than Sasuke? Absolutely not.

Let's do a brief mini-ranking of genins:

Best at:

Taijutsu:
Attacking: Neji
Defending against: Sasuke

Genjutsu:
Attacking: Don't really know. Undoubtedly Sasuke will become the best though because of his eyes.
Defending against: Sasuke, and maybe Neji ties him.

Ninjutsu:
Attacking: Naruto
Defending against: Sasuke

Putting them all together: Sasuke for a great majority of the times. On occasion Naruto surpasses him.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

S(o)meH(o)w I don't think so.

I don't want to get involved in this arguement, but that has to be the funniest thing I've ever seen on Animesuki. Rep.

[Hunter]

About the Genjutsu that Sakura dispelled in the stadium, sure that showed some talent in this field as Kakashi stated but... Sasuke remained awake as well.

It was said that she has talent in Genjutsu and that her "genjutsu know how" was good, that's all.
Heck her Ninjutsu know how is probably also the best or any related ninja stuff know how for that matters.
Her problem isn't knowledge but using this knowledge on the battlefield.

She's better for healing, that's all I know.
Well if Sasuke didn't copy some medical jutsu from Kabuto indeed ^^

[socomberetta]

The chapter sounds pretty good. I get the feeling that the events that allowed Obito's sharingan to manifest itself are going to happen a lot faster than I thought.

[Struggler]

Ebisu said something about Sasuke wasting 10% chaka doing a bunshin no jutsu and Sakura wasting 0%.

Bunshin no jutsu is a genjutsu. Sakura is more skilled/efficient at this genjutsu than sasuke. maybe Sakura is more skilled at other genjutsu than sasuke? maybe not. Maybe sakura just trained very hard at this jutsu or she is natually good at this particular jutsu-_-,. or maybe...

[Hunter]

You missed the point Struggler, it showed Sakura's efficiency for chakra control, not Genjutsu.

Btw why in hell the rock nins have kidnapped Rin in the first place? I mean if ninjas are supposed to place the success of their mission above the safety of their comrade then it was a completely useless move.
Worse than that actually, a very stupid move.
They purposely let ennemies alone and healthy to continue their mission.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

Best at:

Taijutsu:
Attacking: Neji
Defending against: Sasuke

Genjutsu:
Attacking: Don't really know. Undoubtedly Sasuke will become the best though because of his eyes.
Defending against: Sasuke, and maybe Neji ties him.

Ninjutsu:
Attacking: Naruto
Defending against: Sasuke

There is a logical fallacy there: this show does not have a linear power scale.

The Orochimaru/Jiraiya/Itachi situation has already demonstrated that.

There no such thing as an ouright "strongest".

[Hunter]

Only in term of overall strength Srin Tuar, in a particular field of capacity there are strongest.
that's meant to be Oro/Jiraiya/Tsunade btw, not Itachi.