[Manga] Chapter 241 Discussion

[socomberetta]

Originally Posted by Struggler

Ebisu said something about Sasuke wasting 10% chaka doing a bunshin no jutsu and Sakura wasting 0%.

Bunshin no jutsu is a genjutsu. Sakura is more skilled/efficient at this genjutsu than sasuke. maybe Sakura is more skilled at other genjutsu than sasuke? maybe not. Maybe sakura just trained very hard at this jutsu or she is natually good at this particular jutsu-_-,. or maybe...

She probably is more efficient at the bunshin since she is talented in that area. However, the purpose of Ebisu's lesson was to demonstrate to Naruto the differences between how he utilizes his chakra to perform jutsus compared to his teammates. Ebisu concluded that Naruto, with his inability to properly convert stamina into chakra, he inadvertently creates too much for a particular jutsu, which for his lesson was the bunshin. Also, because Naruto has poor control over his chakra, the resulting jutsu is usually less than what was expected. Sakura on the other hand, is basically perfect in the two areas needed to perform a jutsu; she doesnt create unnecessary chakra, and the resulting jutsu is what she expects it to be.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

There is a logical fallacy there: this show does not have a linear power scale.

The Orochimaru/Jiraiya/Itachi situation has already demonstrated that.

There no such thing as an ouright "strongest".

I don't understand you, I never said someone was outright strongest at something, nor that there was a linear power scale. I merely rated the genin based on what I thought their abilities were in specific areas. I think we can have a rough idea of this, and moreover I know it is possible because Konoha itself does such ratings as is evidenced by Sasuke's report card.

The non-linearity bit arises when you consider 1) how a ninja incorporates all the elements, 2) creativity of the ninja, 3) luck.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

I don't understand you, I never said someone was outright strongest at something, nor that there was a linear power scale. I merely rated the genin based on what I thought their abilities were in specific areas. I think we can have a rough idea of this, and moreover I know it is possible because Konoha itself does such ratings as is evidenced by Sasuke's report card.

The non-linearity bit arises when you consider 1) how a ninja incorporates all the elements, 2) creativity of the ninja, 3) luck.

Its simple there is no single person who is the "best" at something, they all have different styles which have different advatnages and drawbacks.

For example you say Neji is the best at offensive taijutu. Yes even unloading his full arsenal into Naruto didnt win him the match. Now, if naruto took a full strength hit from chouji or sasuke's chidori, well he'd probably be done for. But Neji couldnt wound him.

[mexx]

Originally Posted by socomberetta

She probably is more efficient at the bunshin since she is talented in that area. However, the purpose of Ebisu's lesson was to demonstrate to Naruto the differences between how he utilizes his chakra to perform jutsus compared to his teammates. Ebisu concluded that Naruto, with his inability to properly convert stamina into chakra, he inadvertently creates too much for a particular jutsu, which for his lesson was the bunshin. Also, because Naruto has poor control over his chakra, the resulting jutsu is usually less than what was expected. Sakura on the other hand, is basically perfect in the two areas needed to perform a jutsu; she doesnt create unnecessary chakra, and the resulting jutsu is what she expects it to be.

when ebisu was training naruto, he was still sealed by the 5 part orochimo seal... once that was off he was able to control chakara instantly (walking on water). also does it really matter if he puts to much chakra in his jutsu's? his main attack is kage-bunshin, and for all we know the more chakara you throw in eitehr a) the strong ur clones are, or b) the more clones you have. and it never hurts to put more chakra into a rasengan... he fired it off like 4 times vs the lighting sword? not like he has a low chakara supply anyway.

[raijin]

Originally Posted by Struggler

Ebisu said something about Sasuke wasting 10% chaka doing a bunshin no jutsu and Sakura wasting 0%.

Bunshin no jutsu is a genjutsu. Sakura is more skilled/efficient at this genjutsu than sasuke. maybe Sakura is more skilled at other genjutsu than sasuke? maybe not. Maybe sakura just trained very hard at this jutsu or she is natually good at this particular jutsu-_-,. or maybe...

Although this is off-topic, Bunshin no Jutsu is not a Genjutsu, it's a Ninjutsu. Aside from the Official Character Book (written by Kishimoto), which states it as a Ninjutsu; Naruto also mentions it in the manga:

Naruto: 分身の術は...... オレの一番苦手な忍術だったんだ
or
Naruto: Bunshin no Jutsu...... It was my worst Ninjutsu

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Only in term of overall strength Srin Tuar, in a particular field of capacity there are strongest.
that's meant to be Oro/Jiraiya/Tsunade btw, not Itachi.

The latest anime episode proves that false.

Both Kiba and Chouji have strong Taijutu. Kiba is faster, and can get in more hits: he would probably beat chouji in a one vs one taijutu fight.

But against that earth-dome-barrier jutu Chouji's taijutu could break free but Kiba's could not.

So there is no "strongest", there are various styles. I mean have you even considered the Neji/Lee rivalry: konoha taijutu + the 8 gates vs the feared hyuugaryuu style? Would you say one is outright stronger than the other? I dont think so.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by mexx

when ebisu was training naruto, he was still sealed by the 5 part orochimo seal... once that was off he was able to control chakara instantly (walking on water). also does it really matter if he puts to much chakra in his jutsu's? his main attack is kage-bunshin, and for all we know the more chakara you throw in eitehr a) the strong ur clones are, or b) the more clones you have. and it never hurts to put more chakra into a rasengan... he fired it off like 4 times vs the lighting sword? not like he has a low chakara supply anyway.

Excellent point: thats why Jiraiya chose to teach him those kinds of jutus. Jutu's that rely upon mass quantities of brute chakura are perfect for him. Those that require too many complicated hand seals, precise chakura control, or extreme reflexes are not ideal for him, but mass power jutus like kutiose and rasengan are perfect.

Thats his style. Its not invulnerable, but it is formidable.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Its simple there is no single person who is the "best" at something, they all have different styles which have different advatnages and drawbacks.

For example you say Neji is the best at offensive taijutu. Yes even unloading his full arsenal into Naruto didnt win him the match. Now, if naruto took a full strength hit from chouji or sasuke's chidori, well he'd probably be done for. But Neji couldnt wound him.

I think you have a misconception of what taijutsu is. Taijutsu is simple hand-to-hand martial arts combat. Chidori is ninjutsu, as is Chouji's move. Btw, Neji did not unleash his full arsenal into Naruto. Had he, Naruto would now be dead. As you might recall, a Hyuuga can kill with a single hit if he so desires.

[AnimeFangirl]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Yes even unloading his full arsenal into Naruto didnt win him the match.

Eww, Srin Tuar, just EWWWW

I bet what's gonna happen in the next chapter is that Obito is going to go off on his own, get attacked by enemies and fight back, then just when we think he's done for, Kakashi jumps in and saves him. That's what the preview suggests, anyway. I think that would be a really cool ending to the next chapter, plus a nice start to their friendship. I get a WAFFy feeling just thinking about it.

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Excellent point: thats why Jiraiya chose to teach him those kinds of jutus. Jutu's that rely upon mass quantities of brute chakura are perfect for him. Those that require too many complicated hand seals, precise chakura control, or extreme reflexes are not ideal for him, but mass power jutus like kutiose and rasengan are perfect.

Thats his style. Its not invulnerable, but it is formidable.

actually rasengan is precise control

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

actually rasengan is precise control

Theres no such thing a "precise" control when working with that quantity of raw chakura, imo. It merely requires the strength of control to contain it until it becomes critical mass. And as the latest anime episode demonstrates, naruto can only barely do it. Even the slight distraction caused by the chakura drain was enough to prevent him from using his favorite jutu.

I wouldnt want naruto doing scalpel-jutu surgery on any character I cared about. scary.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

I think you have a misconception of what taijutsu is. Taijutsu is simple hand-to-hand martial arts combat. Chidori is ninjutsu, as is Chouji's move. Btw, Neji did not unleash his full arsenal into Naruto. Had he, Naruto would now be dead. As you might recall, a Hyuuga can kill with a single hit if he so desires.

Uh... he was death-touching him all day. Hell, two of those hits put Hinata out for over a month. He put alot of anger into those hits.

furthermore, they call chouji's attach taijutu quite clearly in the latest episode. Perhaps baika no jutu is a self-transformation ninjutu, but the rolling attack is his Tai-Jutsu.

[strategos]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

The latest anime episode proves that false.

Both Kiba and Chouji have strong Taijutu. Kiba is faster, and can get in more hits: he would probably beat chouji in a one vs one taijutu fight.

But against that earth-dome-barrier jutu Chouji's taijutu could break free but Kiba's could not.

So there is no "strongest", there are various styles. I mean have you even considered the Neji/Lee rivalry: konoha taijutu + the 8 gates vs the feared hyuugaryuu style? Would you say one is outright stronger than the other? I dont think so.

Chouji has more attack power but he is slower. Kiba has more speed in attacks but his attacks are less strong. The same when you play an online game, You can select a weapon that is faster but does less atk dmg or a weapon that does more dmg but is slower.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Uh... he was death-touching him all day. Hell, two of those hits put Hinata out for over a month. He put alot of anger into those hits.

He definitely did not hit Naruto once with lethal intent. Read the fight again. He even informed the judge when he planned on doing so, but he never did.

furthermore, they call chouji's attach taijutu quite clearly in the latest episode. Perhaps baika no jutu is a self-transformation ninjutu, but the rolling attack is his Tai-Jutsu.

That's why there's such a thing as combination ninja attacks. I even included a rating for that. Chouji obviously can not do his meatball attack with ninjutsu. Therefore, it's a combo. Geez louise.

[socomberetta]

Originally Posted by mexx

when ebisu was training naruto, he was still sealed by the 5 part orochimo seal... once that was off he was able to control chakara instantly (walking on water).

Remember the tree-climbing exercises? If I remember correctly, it took Naruto more than a day of practicing to get a hang of that skill. The same goes for the water walking exercise. If he hadnt been doing the excersise prior to Jiraiya's unsealing of Oro's seal, he wouldnt have been able to walk on water just like that.

also does it really matter if he puts to much chakra in his jutsu's?
his main attack is kage-bunshin, and for all we know the more chakara you throw in eitehr a) the strong ur clones are, or b) the more clones you have. and it never hurts to put more chakra into a rasengan... he fired it off like 4 times vs the lighting sword? not like he has a low chakara supply anyway.

a.) Maybe, maybe not.

b.)Even if Naruto did create more chakra for a given jutsu(KBnJ), because of his poor chakra control, its not a sure thing that he'd be able to utilize that chakra with that jutsu. Instead, he'd more than likely end up not using part of the chakra he created.

Sooner or later, Naruto is going to have to learn proper chakra control. Even if he does have an almost endless supply because of the Kyuubi, without proper control, he'd end up wasting most of that chakra needlessly.

[Last of the Uchiha]

Originally Posted by Dorfl

Eww, Srin Tuar, just EWWWW

I bet what's gonna happen in the next chapter is that Obito is going to go off on his own, get attacked by enemies and fight back, then just when we think he's done for, Kakashi jumps in and saves him. That's what the preview suggests, anyway. I think that would be a really cool ending to the next chapter, plus a nice start to their friendship. I get a WAFFy feeling just thinking about it.

Can you tell us what the preview said, since i didn't see it.

[boler]

this whole sexiest thing is rather boring and unjustified really. and for the most part false. like stated many times before the women often have been up against tougher opponents as have the men. temari technically by rules of match defeated shika. tayuya was also a very strong char for her part she wasin. that and if you read this far into the mange you know it took another girl to defeat tayuya.

and also you talk about men always saving the women??? if im not correct in the series the first person to (really need) tosave someone was sakura saving a unconcious naruto and sasuke in the chuunin exam.although weak and pathetic as it was against the sound nin it did save their lives and buy time for others to show up. ino was also a contributing factor in the matter.it was after all her who instructed the team to jump in and help out.

wanna talk about how men and women are equal, well truly really they are not.
yes they can have potential to do the same as men do. but even through history of wars men have always been the dominate force to fight for wars.


last and final question. would you rather a female firefighter carry your unconscious self out of a burning building or a male???? who would you trust to be more able to do it?keep in mind the weight of the gear the firefighter has to carrry around already on them.


now that im past my 2 cents on that bit..i thought the manga series is coming out quite nicely. from my view of how things turn out i think kakashi gonna keep going possibly and then realize that maybe he should have gone after obito and rin. when he finally gets there he finds that obito encountered the nin and put himself in near death. seeing obito in that condition makes him realize that maybe the rules shouldnt always be followed. takes out holy "revenge" on the rock nins. and later obito dies giving up the eye.

thats why i think kakashi tells sasuke to give up seeking revenge cause it wont cure your pain and your loss. cause it didnt cure his.

[AnimeFangirl]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha

Can you tell us what the preview said, since i didn't see it.

"Enemies appear in front of Obito, who is heading to save Rin!? Next time, 'Dilemma!'"

[hokagenaruto3]

I don't know, it's a far fetch, but I read in a source about the legendary Demon Fox that it was a master in magic (jutsu), could posess people, and was also a master in illusions (genjutsu).
Hunter should know.
If Kishimoto lives up to the legend, he's also going to give Naruto some exclusive genjutsu.

P.S. we now know why the 4th was called Konoha's Golden Flash, but I'd like to see some jutsu to see why they calles Jiraiya Konoha's Storm and I wonder what they're going to call Naruto: Konoha's Red Flash> Konoha's Demon Fox...etc?

[socomberetta]

Originally Posted by boler

last and final question. would you rather a female firefighter carry your unconscious self out of a burning building or a male???? who would you trust to be more able to do it?keep in mind the weight of the gear the firefighter has to carrry around already on them.

Depends on whoever's stronger. If the female firefighter was, Id rather have her carry me out. If her male counterpart was stronger, then it'd be the other way around.

Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3

P.S. we now know why the 4th was called Konoha's Golden Flash, but I'd like to see some jutsu to see why they calles Jiraiya Konoha's Storm and I wonder what they're going to call Naruto: Konoha's Red Flash> Konoha's Demon Fox...etc?

When was Jiraiya referred to as Konoha's Storm? Seriously, I cant remember and it'd be a pain to look through the manga to find out.

They'd probably call Naruto, Golden Flash II.