AnimeSuki Forums

Marine-RX179 · 2004-12-08, 02:07

About Himeko and Chikane's relationship, I believe a Japanese kanji phase with the meaning of 'More than just friends, but are not quite lovers' (can't type kanji...) would best describe it.

overfiend · 2004-12-08, 02:09

ARRRRRGGGGGTHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Souma must die!!!

Anything else is unacceptable.

Die, die, die!!!

I'm better now

NoSanninWa · 2004-12-08, 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by overfiend

This threatens to be

BUT. I will assume most here have seen or are familiar with Blue Seed. If you haven't or aren't, and are interested in another take on the Orochi myth - watch it. The second series isn't that great, but the first is pretty damn cool.

Also Masamune Shirow did a manga named Orion which features Susano-O and Amaterasu as main characters. I'm not sure if Orochi was in it though.

Anyway, thought some of you might be interested.

This topic is no longer

Orion didn't use the name Orochi, but it did have an 8-headed Naga equation.

Orion is absolutely the best thing Shirow has ever written in my humble opinion. In most of his works he skips one of the important lessons of writing, "Don't tell it, show it!" But he managed to get it right in Orion. (I'd say more about Orion, but this thread is suppose to be about KnM and this is only relevant due to its connection to the Orochi story.)

Timeless Enigma · 2004-12-08, 02:23

Oogami's pretty much dead unless Himeko actually... uh... starts caring about him.

I mean, I was always expecting Himeko/Chikane, but what further cemented it was episode 10, and I'm pretty sure most of you who've seen episode 10 know the reason why.

Spoiler for those who haven't seen up to episode 10 and some predictions:

Takemi_Ikazuchi · 2004-12-08, 02:41

I guess I'm the only person who thinks that nobody will die.

Self delusion..?
Did I watch too much cheesy anime shows? Am I too jaded?
Divine insight into the future?

Only time will tell...

SeedBoy · 2004-12-08, 02:42

What i still dont get, is

Spoiler:

Its funny the way the story goes, without much explaination yet. Either they all die or all live, but Im hoping for a satisfying ending, not no cliffbangger or chopen/ended thing.

Mentar · 2004-12-08, 02:42

I feel like we're missing some pieces of the puzzle yet. Therefore we're up to alot of speculation. This is the way I could make them fit together the best, but ALOT of questions remain unanswered yet. For discussion:

Spoiler:

I think it boils down to the question whether or not Chikane still has a certain degree of control over herself and her actions or if she started the Orochi endeavour with some plan in her mind and then "snapped" and completely turned over to the dark side. I'll try to revise the key scenes again.

Key Scene 1: Chikane watches Himeko and Souma kiss. Himeko starts to cry in pain, Chikane has a revelation of a scene in which the Sun Miko is killed by the Moon Miko, even though the latter obviously loves the former. Chikane comments "So this is how it is". My interpretation is that Chikane learned about something important here about what has happened and is going to happen to the Mikos.

Key Scene 2: Chikane shows some strong emotions for the very first time when she cried after nabbing Himeko for a hug, because Himeko can't understand Chikane's seashell "matching pair" analogy, and that she wants to be this special person for Himeko. My interpretation is that in this scene, Chikane realized that she won't be able to make her understand "in the normal way" and was about to lose her.

Key Scene 3: Right after this revelation, a still-shaken Chikane is shown looking at the moon and uttering the to-become-famous words: "I've decided, Himeko. I've decided". Here Chikane decided to follow a preconceived path of action, but (and this is important for later), the way she worded it convinces me that at least at that point it's _not_ her intention to kill Himeko. Instead, it rather seems as if she is going to do something drastic _for_ her sake.

So what is it she wants to do? This is the crunch time question I feel we still miss the main puzzle piece for, to connect all dots. My current (weak) theory is that she's trying to take Himeko's place as the Sun Miko who is to be killed by the Moon miko to accomplish something (saving the world?). And to antagonize Himeko enough to go through with this (which as we all know would be entirely against Himeko's nature otherwise).

There is one scene in ep10 which reaffirms my belief that she at least hasn't _fully_ succumbed to the evil side: When she picked up the earrings which Himeko brought. This is the only scene showing Chikane while Himeko isn't around (and can thus be interpreted as "genuine" - she wouldn't have to "play" anything here no matter what her real motives are). And the look of sadness in Chikane's eyes make me believe that at least a part of her is still her "old" self. Why would a fully orochi-controlled Chikane bother to look at the earrings again in the first place, and with this look?

Therefore it's my shaky conclusion that most likely she decided to become Orochi, clean the house and become THE main villain, THE representative of evil after taking out the others, to be killed by Himeko in the upcoming duel - and thus "saving the world". She came back to normal for the famous "last night of happiness", and in order to shock Himeko by her second betrayal enough to incite her enough to really fight and kill Chikane in the upcoming duel (we KNOW that Himeko doesn't want to fight her).

I wanna see eps 11 and 12 like right now

Mentar · 2004-12-08, 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedBoy

What i still dont get, is

Spoiler:

DrewGSR · 2004-12-08, 03:08

so many possibilties, but yea i wouldn't care if Souma got his ass handed to him and killed by Chikane tho lol. Shoot he might as well just seppuku himself lol. I do agree that i think some WILL die but i not sure who i think will tho. show turns coat real quick so it can go either way. Also im really suprised this show is such a hot topic

with so many views and constant replies with everyone all WTF after the first episode lol.

Lance · 2004-12-08, 03:15

It's really sad that there will be only 2 episodes...

I guess some questions will be answered but there will be many issues that remain unexplained and leave to the viewers' imagination... But this anime is shoujo-ai to begin with so at least the female-female relationship should be the first priority issue and needs to be adequately explained...

Spoiler:

SeedBoy · 2004-12-08, 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler:

True, although dont forget that no matter how hard Chikane tried, if that's her intention, the symbols crested on their own body can never change, or at least thats how it should be since it looks like its embedded on them. So clearly enough, Himeko's Sun crest still shines her out.

Mentar · 2004-12-08, 04:06

Well, she _is_ the Sun Miko after all. But this is the best explanation I can come up with for Chikane's actions. She wants to switch roles - and thus switch the destinies. At least from this perspective her actions would make some bizarre sense.

(Of course Chikane could just have snapped and do things wantonly, but that would be no real basis for an anime *grins*)

FlyByNite · 2004-12-08, 04:48

So I watched 10 and I gotta say Himeko must have fell out of the stupid tree and hit all the branches on the way down...

Spoiler:

evil|plushie · 2004-12-08, 05:46

You know...I like Souma and all, but preferably he shouldn't get together with Himeko. Not that I dislike either pairing of ChikaneHimeko or HimekoSouma but Souma's way too good for Himeko. Souma! Even if his fate is to die, he shall walk bravely into that fate fighting for what he believes in! As for the rest of the cast.... I hope the world undergoes nuclear winter after that and everybody dies (except the real Orochi members), that's about how much I care for them.

Takemi_Ikazuchi · 2004-12-08, 05:54

I think I've heard that before.. in the Kimi ga Nozomu Eien thread...

Oh my, another Deja Vu moment for me...

klath · 2004-12-08, 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marine-RX179

About Himeko and Chikane's relationship, I believe a Japanese kanji phase with the meaning of 'More than just friends, but are not quite lovers' (can't type kanji...) would best describe it.

2x2 = Shinobuden has that line.

Timeless Enigma · 2004-12-08, 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyByNite

So I watched 10 and I gotta say Himeko must have fell out of the stupid tree and hit all the branches on the way down...

Spoiler:

It's gotta be the hair, or else her mean dad beat her with the stupid stick too.

sarcasteak · 2004-12-08, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyByNite

So I watched 10 and I gotta say Himeko must have fell out of the stupid tree and hit all the branches on the way down...

...and she immediately climbed back up for seconds.

I guess Himeko personifies the ultimate love that is capable of forgiving anything...or that Himeko does a good job of deluding herself that anything bad/good is "just a dream."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marine-RX179

About Himeko and Chikane's relationship, I believe a Japanese kanji phase with the meaning of 'More than just friends, but are not quite lovers' (can't type kanji...) would best describe it.

I don't think 友達以上恋人未満 applies in their case because I seriously believe Himeko's love for Chikane has long passed the point of "lover" even if she's not consciously a lesbian.

dreamless · 2004-12-08, 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marine-RX179

About Himeko and Chikane's relationship, I believe a Japanese kanji phase with the meaning of 'More than just friends, but are not quite lovers' (can't type kanji...) would best describe it.

Hmm... I think that line is to describe yuri/lily relationship, but here it's definitely far beyond it. it has a rape!!!

this is more than love, this is already a complete obsession. I think this definitely falls into the GL/Lesbian range, if not even deeper

Marine-RX179 · 2004-12-08, 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcasteak

I don't think 友達以上恋人未満 applies in their case because I seriously believe Himeko's love for Chikane has long passed the point of "lover" even if she's not consciously a lesbian.

Well, the reason I think it's '恋人未満', is becaue Himeko do love and care about Chikane, but not in the romantic interest sort of way...and that's the only thing that's keeping them from becoming lover...if you know what I mean. If Kimeko DO have romantic interest in Chikane, they would had been a GL couple long ago....but at current point it was still Chikane's one way romantic interest (may be even lust?).....so not quite make them lover yet since it's not romantic interest both ways...

P.S. I mean that's how I see the relationship is....exclude the incident of the rape.....

2004-12-08, 02:23	Link #864
Timeless Enigma Tsushima Masaki Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: British Columbia, Canada	Oogami's pretty much dead unless Himeko actually... uh... starts caring about him. I mean, I was always expecting Himeko/Chikane, but what further cemented it was episode 10, and I'm pretty sure most of you who've seen episode 10 know the reason why. Spoiler for those who haven't seen up to episode 10 and some predictions: Oogami is in a lose/lose situation from where I sit, but to him it might be a win/lose. If Oogami lives long enough he'll become a brainless Orochi unless Himeko saves him somehow, but currently she's preoccupied with Chikane. If Oogami doesn't live long enough for the snake scales to take over his whole body then I'm certain he will meet his demise, most likely attempting to protect Himeko. This is a lose for me and a win for him, because as he said in an earlier episode he can choose to destroy the world or die protecting the world and Himeko. So unless the direction changes I'm 99% certain that Oogami will have it bad. Whether or not everyone else dies or becomes unhappy with him is another question. To me Chikane looks way too far gone. I was sure she had lost it completely in episode 8 and that this wasn't some sort of plan for the good of Himeko. It seems I was right all along, however this is still always a chance for the "it is all an act" theory to be true. I don't think Chikane can be saved from "the dark side" unless Himeko sacrifices her own life to make it happen, which is highly likely, which makes Oogami's death meaningless, and would have impact. That's just how I'm looking at it. __________________

2004-12-08, 02:42	Link #866
SeedBoy Member Join Date: Oct 2004	What i still dont get, is Spoiler: why does Chikane want to kill her love. I mean, She loves her so much that she needs to kill her? Its funny the way the story goes, without much explaination yet. Either they all die or all live, but Im hoping for a satisfying ending, not no cliffbangger or chopen/ended thing.

2004-12-08, 03:15	Link #870
Lance Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	It's really sad that there will be only 2 episodes... I guess some questions will be answered but there will be many issues that remain unexplained and leave to the viewers' imagination... But this anime is shoujo-ai to begin with so at least the female-female relationship should be the first priority issue and needs to be adequately explained... Spoiler: BTW... I watched ep 10 and I was relieved to see how Himeko is not psychologically damaged by Chikane's rape and still wants to be with Chikane... IMO, whether Chikane's action was right or wrong is all up to Himeko and should not be judged either by creators or by viewers... (I'm not saying rape is a good thing... but this anime is not a "social problem" film dealing with sexual rights... If you want to see that kind of movie and discuss rape seriously then you should watch 1988 Hollywood film "The Accused", not Kannaduki no Miko...) Last edited by Lance; 2004-12-08 at 05:20.

2004-12-08, 04:48	Link #873
FlyByNite Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003	So I watched 10 and I gotta say Himeko must have fell out of the stupid tree and hit all the branches on the way down... Spoiler: Seriously...That girl is very deficient in the intelligence department. Just keeps falling for everything, gets raped by Dark Chikane and still lives in the house where she was raped...Goes back, falls for Chikane again... lol

2004-12-08, 05:46	Link #874
evil\|plushie The Last Frontier Join Date: Apr 2004	You know...I like Souma and all, but preferably he shouldn't get together with Himeko. Not that I dislike either pairing of ChikaneHimeko or HimekoSouma but Souma's way too good for Himeko. Souma! Even if his fate is to die, he shall walk bravely into that fate fighting for what he believes in! As for the rest of the cast.... I hope the world undergoes nuclear winter after that and everybody dies (except the real Orochi members), that's about how much I care for them. __________________ God is on the side with the biggest cannon. http://sining83.blogspot.com

2004-12-08, 02:07	Link #861
Marine-RX179 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004	About Himeko and Chikane's relationship, I believe a Japanese kanji phase with the meaning of 'More than just friends, but are not quite lovers' (can't type kanji...) would best describe it.

2004-12-08, 02:09	Link #862
overfiend Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	ARRRRRGGGGGTHHHHHHH!!!!!!! Souma must die!!! Anything else is unacceptable. Die, die, die!!! I'm better now

2004-12-08, 02:41	Link #865
Takemi_Ikazuchi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Alternate World	I guess I'm the only person who thinks that nobody will die. Self delusion..? Did I watch too much cheesy anime shows? Am I too jaded? Divine insight into the future? Only time will tell...

2004-12-08, 02:42	Link #867
Mentar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hamburg Age: 54	I feel like we're missing some pieces of the puzzle yet. Therefore we're up to alot of speculation. This is the way I could make them fit together the best, but ALOT of questions remain unanswered yet. For discussion: Spoiler: I think it boils down to the question whether or not Chikane still has a certain degree of control over herself and her actions or if she started the Orochi endeavour with some plan in her mind and then "snapped" and completely turned over to the dark side. I'll try to revise the key scenes again. Key Scene 1: Chikane watches Himeko and Souma kiss. Himeko starts to cry in pain, Chikane has a revelation of a scene in which the Sun Miko is killed by the Moon Miko, even though the latter obviously loves the former. Chikane comments "So this is how it is". My interpretation is that Chikane learned about something important here about what has happened and is going to happen to the Mikos. Key Scene 2: Chikane shows some strong emotions for the very first time when she cried after nabbing Himeko for a hug, because Himeko can't understand Chikane's seashell "matching pair" analogy, and that she wants to be this special person for Himeko. My interpretation is that in this scene, Chikane realized that she won't be able to make her understand "in the normal way" and was about to lose her. Key Scene 3: Right after this revelation, a still-shaken Chikane is shown looking at the moon and uttering the to-become-famous words: "I've decided, Himeko. I've decided". Here Chikane decided to follow a preconceived path of action, but (and this is important for later), the way she worded it convinces me that at least at that point it's _not_ her intention to kill Himeko. Instead, it rather seems as if she is going to do something drastic _for_ her sake. So what is it she wants to do? This is the crunch time question I feel we still miss the main puzzle piece for, to connect all dots. My current (weak) theory is that she's trying to take Himeko's place as the Sun Miko who is to be killed by the Moon miko to accomplish something (saving the world?). And to antagonize Himeko enough to go through with this (which as we all know would be entirely against Himeko's nature otherwise). There is one scene in ep10 which reaffirms my belief that she at least hasn't _fully_ succumbed to the evil side: When she picked up the earrings which Himeko brought. This is the only scene showing Chikane while Himeko isn't around (and can thus be interpreted as "genuine" - she wouldn't have to "play" anything here no matter what her real motives are). And the look of sadness in Chikane's eyes make me believe that at least a part of her is still her "old" self. Why would a fully orochi-controlled Chikane bother to look at the earrings again in the first place, and with this look? Therefore it's my shaky conclusion that most likely she decided to become Orochi, clean the house and become THE main villain, THE representative of evil after taking out the others, to be killed by Himeko in the upcoming duel - and thus "saving the world". She came back to normal for the famous "last night of happiness", and in order to shock Himeko by her second betrayal enough to incite her enough to really fight and kill Chikane in the upcoming duel (we KNOW that Himeko doesn't want to fight her). I wanna see eps 11 and 12 like right now

2004-12-08, 03:08	Link #869
DrewGSR Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	so many possibilties, but yea i wouldn't care if Souma got his ass handed to him and killed by Chikane tho lol. Shoot he might as well just seppuku himself lol. I do agree that i think some WILL die but i not sure who i think will tho. show turns coat real quick so it can go either way. Also im really suprised this show is such a hot topic with so many views and constant replies with everyone all WTF after the first episode lol.

2004-12-08, 04:06	Link #872
Mentar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hamburg Age: 54	Well, she _is_ the Sun Miko after all. But this is the best explanation I can come up with for Chikane's actions. She wants to switch roles - and thus switch the destinies. At least from this perspective her actions would make some bizarre sense. (Of course Chikane could just have snapped and do things wantonly, but that would be no real basis for an anime grins)

2004-12-08, 05:54	Link #875
Takemi_Ikazuchi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Alternate World	I think I've heard that before.. in the Kimi ga Nozomu Eien thread... Oh my, another Deja Vu moment for me...