One Piece - Chapter 650 [manga]

[Undertaker]

True, the very fact that the White Sea(cloud) can have sea element shows that Oda's definition of "sea" is something pretty abstract.

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by aohige

That is not what he's saying.

Your comprehension is apprehensive. It's nearly at the level of:
"why is the sky red" "it's probably due to the dispersion of light from the sun in the atmosp...." "ARE U CALLING ME RACIST"



He's talking about consistency of a character, not what is right or wrong.

Have I ever told you that I love you?

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Indeed.

Akainu is about order, Aokiji is about justice

Not exactly... order and justice depends on the eye of the beholder.

There isn't a concrete definition for either. It's just that Akainu's moral values differ from Aokiji's.

It's even explained in One Piece too.. like way back in the Alabasta Arc when Smoker talks to Tashig about it. Then later on during the war with Whitebeard and the marines.. she reflects on what Smoker said earlier and realizes what he means.

[Undertaker]

Exactly, even Oda himself mentioned that every marine have their own sense of justice. That's where the whole "absolute justice", "lazy justice" and "unclear justice" comes from. Heck, in the Battle of Summit, Oda even state it out clearly in manga through Doflamingo!!!

If I remember correctly it was something like, "Winner determines what is justice, of course justice will prevail, whoever win will become justice!!"

Akainu wasn't wrong, neither was Aokiji.

With that been said, even with his moral value, Aokiji still followed his Buster Call order in Ohara and was prepared to bring Robin in prior to Enis Lobby incident. Smoker is still hell bend on bringing in Luffy even though he knew the truth behind Alabasta and have nothing that he can held against SH other than them being pirate. So it's not like both are pure moral police as many thinks.

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Exactly, even Oda himself mentioned that every marine have their own sense of justice. That's where the whole "absolute justice", "lazy justice" and "unclear justice" comes from. Heck, in the Battle of Summit, Oda even state it out clearly in manga through Doflamingo!!!

If I remember correctly it was something like, "Winner determines what is justice, of course justice will prevail, whoever win will become justice!!"

Akainu wasn't wrong, neither was Aokiji.

With that been said, even with his moral value, Aokiji still followed his Buster Call order in Ohara and was prepared to bring Robin in prior to Enis Lobby incident. Smoker is still hell bend on bringing in Luffy even though he knew the truth behind Alabasta and have nothing that he can held against SH other than them being pirate. So it's not like both are pure moral police as many thinks.

Aokiji did end up changing his mind though on the situation way back then and he was against what Akainu did when Akainu killed the rest of the Ohara survivors that were on the ship.

Smoker is just dumb haha. Him going after Luffy has nothing to do with "justice" Luffy is his rival more than anything else really. Like as was Garp to Roger. If you read back or watch back he never once mentions justice as he's chasing down Luffy.

[Undertaker]

No, Aoikiji didn't regret the attack, he merely mentioned he wasn't planning on going as far as Akainu did on attacking the evacuation ship. What he did say in 397 was that depending where you stand the view of justice changes and he won't judge Saul for his, and if eliminating the scholar is for greater good, he have no opinion on carry out the order, and if Saul stands in the way then he'll strike him down.

Aoikiji still strike down Saul and still carries out the rest of order by not pulling back even after Akainu's attack of the evacuation ship, there is no regret. Yes, he did allow Robin to escape but he also warned her that he'll be the enemy if she becomes problem and letting her escape was more because of Saul than he regretting the attack. Either way Aokiji still finished the job o Ohara. Like I said he still planned on taking Robin in prior to Enis Lobby hence giving Spandem the chance to summon Buster Call. Not to mention that he also left Luffy and Robin to die before W7. You can say that Aokiji held back but the fact was that both are likely dead if not because of Chopper being on board and Aoikiji was only being lazy on finishing them up. (hence the lazy justice)

Smoker told Tashigi to act out her own justice which implies that his obsession in going after pirates and SH in particular is his form of justice.

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

No, Aoikiji didn't regret the attack, he merely mentioned he wasn't planning on going as far as Akainu did on attacking the evacuation ship. What he did say in 397 was that depending where you stand the view of justice changes and he won't judge Saul for his, and if eliminating the scholar is for greater good, he have no opinion on carry out the order, and if Saul stands in the way then he'll strike him down.

Aoikiji still strike down Saul and still carries out the rest of order by not pulling back even after Akainu's attack of the evacuation ship, there is no regret. Yes, he did allow Robin to escape but he also warned her that he'll be the enemy if she becomes problem and letting her escape was more because of Saul than he regretting the attack. Either way Aokiji still finished the job o Ohara. Like I said he still planned on taking Robin in prior to Enis Lobby hence giving Spandem the chance to summon Buster Call. Not to mention that he also left Luffy and Robin to die before W7. You can say that Aokiji held back but the fact was that both are likely dead if not because of Chopper being on board and Aoikiji was only being lazy on finishing them up. (hence the lazy justice)

Smoker told Tashigi to act out her own justice which implies that his obsession in going after pirates and SH in particular is his form of justice.

I know haha that's what I meant I just didn't put into words correctly. That other part wasn't very clear for me... like Aokiji giving Spandem the chance to summon the buster call. It seems like Spandem got it using other methods or something.. Robin even said before she was surprised that Aokiji would give Spandem access to something like that.

And idk.. it totally depends on your point of view.. in a sense Aokiji was doing what he felt was the right thing to do.. getting rid of Robin and he might of succeeded if the Strawhats hadn't of intervened. It seemed from the start that he wasn't planning on taking the Strawhats in or even doing anything in particular, but his excuse for not killing Luffy was that he owed him for taking care of Crocodile also Aokiji isn't a dumb guy. He probably considers the possibilities and consequences before he acts on something. I wouldn't say it was him being lazy that he chose not to finish off the Strawhats because he could of done that with ease in no time at all.

And about Smoker.. yeah you could put it that way too.

[paradox13]

There isn't a concrete definition for either. It's just that Akainu's moral values differ from Aokiji's.

There are no 'concrete definitions' in the sense that everyone can agree on a definition for what order or justice is (or justice at least), but there are definitions that can be more easily justified using reasoning and definitions that cannot be as easily justified. I cannot see how one can defend Akainu's version of 'justice'.

If I remember correctly it was something like, "Winner determines what is justice, of course justice will prevail, whoever win will become justice!!"

You mustn't have studied moral theory in high school or university then. I highly doubt Oda is advocating for moral relativism. One can see from Akainu's actions and his position within the structure of the storyline in the manga, that he is not a moral character.

What Doflamingo is saying is true, in the sense that whoever wins will become justice. In other words, winners write the history, and losers are left with nothing. The truth doesn't matter, what matters is who wins or loses. And that is true if one looks at history. Were the Soviets any better (morally) than the Nazis? No they killed a lot more people, and Stalin was crazier than Hitler, and yet history text books do not condemn them as much because they were the winners.

What Doflamingo is saying has nothing to do with what we are discussing right now.

[marvelB]

So.... in case anyone forgets, THERE IS NO CHAPTER THIS WEEK. Consecutive double issues are pretty much the norm around the end of the year. However, there is a VERY good possibility that an early spoiler will appear as early as this Christmas weekend! Of course, that also means we'd have to wait about 3 weeks for chapter 652, but this is something that those of us who've been following the weekly chapters for a good while now should be used to already.....



And taking a break from the Akainu morality debates for the moment, I'm really looking forward to those envoys from Big Mama's crew. Hopefully, they'll be just as diverse as Whitebeard's commanders were. And there's still the question of whether or not a certain former slave joined Charlotte's ranks....

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by paradox13

There are no 'concrete definitions' in the sense that everyone can agree on a definition for what order or justice is (or justice at least), but there are definitions that can be more easily justified using reasoning and definitions that cannot be as easily justified. I cannot see how one can defend Akainu's version of 'justice'.

Hahah that's what I was implying

Originally Posted by marvelB

So.... in case anyone forgets, THERE IS NO CHAPTER THIS WEEK. Consecutive double issues are pretty much the norm around the end of the year. However, there is a VERY good possibility that an early spoiler will appear as early as this Christmas weekend! Of course, that also means we'd have to wait about 3 weeks for chapter 652, but this is something that those of us who've been following the weekly chapters for a good while now should be used to already.....



And taking a break from the Akainu morality debates for the moment, I'm really looking forward to those envoys from Big Mama's crew. Hopefully, they'll be just as diverse as Whitebeard's commanders were. And there's still the question of whether or not a certain former slave joined Charlotte's ranks....

Figured pretty much that there wouldn't be. Oh well.. .. I'll be gone during the time anyways haha. I'm curious to how Big Mama is going to react to what just happened on Fishman Island.. ALOT of things popped up all crammed into one chapter. I still think Blackbeard's ability to take abilities away from other people is overpowering though.. that's kind of ridiculous.. is he able to take them and then transfer them to another person? Because I kept thinking that he was taking the abilities and giving them to himself, but that'd be really dumb..

[marvelB]

Oh, and I've been meaning to say this since the chapter was first released, but.... I really hope the geezer Hody pirates get their own ministory.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Oh, and I've been meaning to say this since the chapter was first released, but.... I really hope the geezer Hody pirates get their own ministory.

they well. Has Oda left anyone out of the short stories at all?

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by paradox13

You mustn't have studied moral theory in high school or university then. I highly doubt Oda is advocating for moral relativism. One can see from Akainu's actions and his position within the structure of the storyline in the manga, that he is not a moral character.

What Doflamingo is saying is true, in the sense that whoever wins will become justice. In other words, winners write the history, and losers are left with nothing. The truth doesn't matter, what matters is who wins or loses. And that is true if one looks at history. Were the Soviets any better (morally) than the Nazis? No they killed a lot more people, and Stalin was crazier than Hitler, and yet history text books do not condemn them as much because they were the winners.

What Doflamingo is saying has nothing to do with what we are discussing right now.

Who was talking about morality in the first place? I was strictly talking about what defines justice and the notion whether Akainu is antagonist or a villian, which in this case I lean toward the former.

You say that Akainu is not a moral character, I counter that Aoikiji or Sengoku isn't that far off morally either. Like I said, Aoikiji still carried out the Buster Call and took out Saul, his best friend. Sure Akainu took out the civilian ship but it is on the premises that there might be possibility of scholar on the ship.

We as the reader knew there isn't but not Akainu. As for his other actions, they are all perfectly fell in his roles and power. Only other action that is debatable is the way he handled Coby. But on the other hand, Coby's action can be considered as treason/deserter in military and throughout histery we've seem people got killed by their superior for far less and many come under order of what we peg as moral leaders.

Whether or not Oda is advocating for moral relativism is beyond me but he is advocating the notion that every events have multiple facets and that things are seldom B&W.

As far as morality goes. I took classes on those in college before and it still comes down to nature vs. nurture debate with no answer. Moral perception could and has been changing over time as well. Even during same time period the view on moral values can change depends on cultures and races. In that sense, the view on morality is the same as the view on justice. The moral codes and norms changes depend on the person and the cultures he/she is in and in a sense if shaped by laws, regulations, religions over time.

In that case, like you said kill is not moral, so you peg Akainu as immoral, but than Aoikiji also kills, so shouldn't he also being peg as a immoral character as well?

Originally Posted by Prinnydood

I know haha that's what I meant I just didn't put into words correctly. That other part wasn't very clear for me... like Aokiji giving Spandem the chance to summon the buster call. It seems like Spandem got it using other methods or something.. Robin even said before she was surprised that Aokiji would give Spandem access to something like that.

Only the Admirals and authorize Buster Call and Spandem received the right to make his one call from Aoikiji which was stated in the manga. In my view that makes Aokiji equally guilty. Good thing that that Buster Call didn't end up anything much other than some potential Marine casualties but still...

[Rainbowman]

Originally Posted by marvelB

So.... in case anyone forgets, THERE IS NO CHAPTER THIS WEEK. Consecutive double issues are pretty much the norm around the end of the year. However, there is a VERY good possibility that an early spoiler will appear as early as this Christmas weekend! Of course, that also means we'd have to wait about 3 weeks for chapter 652, but this is something that those of us who've been following the weekly chapters for a good while now should be used to already.....

I'll be sure to have myself busy this christmas weekend. If anyone gets less presents due to recently deceased relatives, my condolances to you.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Uggh. So yeah, I was effin excited to see chapter 651 when i realized there's no chapter this week -screams-

uhmm..akainu sparing aokiji's life. Maybe he was already too weak to kill him?? since it was said how the two were badly injured. But meh..who knows..

[Talendra]

Originally Posted by paradox13

There are no 'concrete definitions' in the sense that everyone can agree on a definition for what order or justice is (or justice at least), but there are definitions that can be more easily justified using reasoning and definitions that cannot be as easily justified. I cannot see how one can defend Akainu's version of 'justice'.

It's actually pretty easy to understand, if you open your mind enough to accept the fact, that the western concept of individualism being the most important thing is merely that: A concept. On among others, not better, not worse.

It is dominant in our society, because it's the moral system that came along with 60+ years of intense moral influence the USA exerted as part of their cultural policy.

If you take a look at a lot of asian countries and the deep roots they have in confucianism, it should be rather easy to understand how a society can value the "greater good" higher than that of individuals. Akainu's view is merely an extremely excessive form this.

While you may disagree with his views and criticise the exessiveness, it would be ignorant to condemn the whole concept of society > individual.

[Rainbowman]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

uhmm..akainu sparing aokiji's life. Maybe he was already too weak to kill him?? since it was said how the two were badly injured. But meh..who knows..

Maybe, or it's the fact that Aokiji is equally as strong as Akainu in terms of elemental strength (Aokiji in terms of cold and Akainu in terms of heat).

[C.A.]

Not sure why people are still arguing over why Akainu spared Aokiji's life.

Did Aokiji in anyway offended the justice that Akainu uphold's? If no, he has no reason to kill.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

I'd like to wish everyone here a safe and wonderful happy holidays .

Hopefully we'll get an early spoiler this weekend as a present .

[Mikoku]

If we don't include Whitebeard and Ace (and also flashbacks) when has some important character died in OP? Oda has some use for Aokiji that's for sure. But I don't see Aokiji joining the revolutionaries, at least not yet. Akainu has to do something really aggravating to piss Aokiji enough off to join RA (like hunt pirates down so greedily that he wouldn't care about civillians' safety anymore).