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Ithekro · 2011-12-16, 04:56

Poor Saber.

I'm assuming Waver in the foreground is the Rider version.

Terminator98 · 2011-12-16, 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Poor Saber.

I'm assuming Waver in the foreground is the Rider version.

What pic are you talking about? O.o

Haak · 2011-12-16, 06:35

^ Probably this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhl88

Ithekro · 2011-12-16, 13:28

I missed two words.
"I'm assuming Waver will be in the foreground in the Rider version."

careph · 2011-12-16, 14:52

Spoiler for Ithekro: "Why is a hero a hero and not just a murderer?":

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Victims may all see things the same, but it is not always the same.

I simply refuse to believe you just said that. So victims should now see things from another perspective? be more tolerant toward being tortured and slaughtered? Just wow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

To some, murder is absolute no matter how it is done. To others, it can be justified via a cause or a war (or as punishment for a crime). The "why" is usually what sets thing apart and why someone can kill thousands and still be a hero. However one mans hero can be another man's villain. It has happened before. Legends are heroes that overcome the concept of them being a villain to one side and are acknowledged as a hero by all sides. Saber would have been a villain to someone she fought against in the name of Brittain, but the Legend of King Arthur has gone far beyond such notions, making Saber a legendary hero.

An example of the opposite to this is Jack the Ripper as presented in Babylon 5. He is someone who it presented in a manner to which he believed in what he was doing was just. Murder because he believed he could cleanse the sins and evils of London. He thought he was the chosen to clean up London's filth. That everything he did was for the greater good. It might have been a worthy goal, but his "why" and method turned him into the serial killer history knows as a Legend. A Legendary Evil as oppose to a Legendary Hero. It all comes down to "why" and perhaps how.

By introducing the role of the observer - the person interpreting and judging people and circumstances - you have touched on an important point, shifting the discussion away from "What makes a hero a hero" toward "Who makes a hero a hero?".
The responsibility of judgment rests entirely on our shoulders - in the end it is our decision who to celebrate as a hero, who to condemn as a villain.
Do we wish to apologize and justify universal misery and destruction as it was wrought by all those "heroes" of old? Do we wish to maintain a status quo that glorifies violence?
Shouldn't we rather find different measures for heroism and reach beyond empty abstract words like "honour", "justice" and "duty", far beyond the capacity to dash each other's brains out to prove who's "right"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

As for the debate: "Why" is the important reason. It is the difference that changes what others see.

"What" also changes your perspective. Realizing the horrors that humankind is capable of, you are forever deprived of the blindfold of ideology; the blindfold that enables humans to be beastlier than any beast, that has haunted human history for millenia and made us wade deeper and ever deeper into a sea of blood.
You focus on the causes for an action. I admit I don't care much for the "why". To me it is the consequences, the "what" of an action that make all the difference between a hero and a villain.
To borrow an example from Camus:
You can say, "He is going to pay his tribute to society."
Or you can say, "They're going to chop his head off."
To me, it is the difference between hiding in an ethereal world of ideas and facing reality.

And now for some wintry greetings ...

Spoiler for Ho Ho Ho!:

Spoiler for Saber:

Ithekro · 2011-12-16, 15:16

This image fits Gil perfectly.

Could you call them holy relics? Do they belong in a museum? Do you want to take them home?

Spoiler for Victims:

Master_Yoma · 2011-12-16, 22:18

Kirei Kotomine

zeando · 2011-12-18, 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminator98

What pic are you talking about? O.o

yeah, hotlinking from crunchiroll sucks, i've to quote to get the image addresses and load them manually

Quote:

Originally Posted by careph

And now for some wintry greetings ...

alexander fits the best as santa, he also has already the carriage

kitten320 · 2011-12-18, 09:33

Probably dumb question but who is Enkidu? I guess it is someone from Gilgamesh's story and if that's the case then where did you find Enkidu's Fate series designs? Was he and Jeanne D'arc shown in the game at some point?

Haak · 2011-12-18, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

Probably dumb question but who is Enkidu? I guess it is someone from Gilgamesh's story and if that's the case then where did you find Enkidu's Fate series designs? Was he and Jeanne D'arc shown in the game at some point?

Enkidu is first revealed as the chain that Gilgamesh uses:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Enkidu
It's named after his closest friend in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The actual Enkidu was then revealed in Fate Strange Fake - A semi official but non-canon fanfiction written by the same guy who wrote Baccano!:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_Strange_Fake

Jeanne D'Arc's design was made for a seperate project called Fate/Apocrypha, which is a cancelled online game project:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_...pha_characters

Cherry_Lover · 2011-12-18, 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by careph

The power differential between a weak serial killer and his victims and the army of a conqueror vs. a few assassins is not dissimilar. It's both just mindless carnage.

Except that the Assassins in question are servants, involved in a war where they have to kill or be killed. And, they chose to be involved in that, just like he did. Further, they came there with the intention of killing him (or, rather, his master...), and if he did not kill them they would have done so again in the future.

Quote:

Maybe it's just because I don't buy into the whole hero glorification. Most of the "heroes" of history, and of course the servants summoned in the Holy Grail War, are nothing but bloody-minded lunatics. Just looking at Iskander's facial expression in that pic where he disembowels an assassin is enough for me to realise that the only difference between a disgusting serial killer and a heroic conqueror is the body count. Unfortunately, the capacity to harm others is still a good measure for the perceived strength of a character, and admired widely.

There's a difference between harming people for a cause and killing them for the sake of killing, though. Not that that in any way automatically justifies the actions of Alexander in real life (I don't honestly see how you can complain about him killing servants, though, even Shirou kills servants), but both sides in a war chose to fight that war, and they have a goal in mind when they do so.

careph · 2011-12-18, 16:56

Spoiler for discussion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The difference is also "why". Why is someone a victim. In the original example little children were being compared with Assassin. Both are victims, and would see death the same. But why are they victims? The child is a victim for no other reason but for the murderer to have fun. Assassin is a victim because he was attempting to kill Rider, Saber, Archer, and their masters. He became a victim when he became suddenly out numbered when at the start he outnumbered his enemies. It became kill or die for Rider and Assassin.

You missed the same point Thess did. I never compared Ryuunosuke to Iskander, nor the Assassins to the children Ryuunosuke killed, and I never will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

It is a war, and people die (when they are killed).

That's getting stale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The rest is mutual differences in upbringing and ideology that rarely can be changed without profound events taking place in one's own life, thus there is little point if arguing over it.

So you're even more pessimistic than I am? One cannot even imagine the outside world unless forcefully dragged out of the cave?
Unfortunately, the responses to my indignation prove you right. This round goes to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The only question that remains is "Than why have heros?"

Because there are people who will cheer for murder. It's your decision and your responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that the Assassins in question are servants, involved in a war where they have to kill or be killed. And, they chose to be involved in that, just like he did. Further, they came there with the intention of killing him (or, rather, his master...), and if he did not kill them they would have done so again in the future.

Since you left out half of my original post, I'll take the liberty to quote it. Please consider the meaning of the boldfaced text carefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by careph

But that's not the point. When somebody cheers Ryuunosuke on, you can usually find traces of irony in the language. But the positive echo following that image was honest. On an intuitive level, that honest enthusiasm for murder frightens me a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

There's a difference between harming people for a cause and killing them for the sake of killing, though. Not that that in any way automatically justifies the actions of Alexander in real life (I don't honestly see how you can complain about him killing servants, though, even Shirou kills servants), but both sides in a war chose to fight that war, and they have a goal in mind when they do so.

Sorry, I can only see the result. I cannot grasp the difference you wish for me to understand.

Spoiler for pics:

Thess · 2011-12-18, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

The actual Enkidu was then revealed in Fate Strange Fake - A semi official but non-canon fanfiction written by the same guy who wrote Baccano!:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_Strange_Fake

At the very least the design makes it to the complete materials. Let's hope they stick with it, or at least keep his hair green I think it fits him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Jeanne D'Arc's design was made for a seperate project called Fate/Apocrypha, which is a cancelled online game project:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_...pha_characters

Fate/Apocrypha is being published as light novels now, I think, it's no longer canceled.

lightsenshi · 2011-12-18, 22:15

LystAP · 2011-12-18, 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thess

At the very least the design makes it to the complete materials. Let's hope they stick with it, or at least keep his hair green I think it fits him.

Fate/Apocrypha is being published as light novels now, I think, it's no longer canceled.

First Act of Fate/Apocrypha was published recently, as has a whole heap of art about the first introduced servant and her master.

Spoiler for Fate/Apocrypha:

Something keeps cutting off the pictures, fixed them again.

Haak · 2011-12-19, 08:09

Oh wow that's great! Hope that gets translated quickly.

And now for something completely random:

Spoiler for space:

careph · 2011-12-20, 07:06

I see your random pic and raise by a few light-hearted images ...

Spoiler:

Spoiler for cards:

Kanon · 2011-12-20, 09:11

Spoiler for King of fashion:

Linkark07 · 2011-12-20, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for King of fashion:

I think he gets that one on Hollow Ataraxia. And I agree with you of how it looks, never liked it

Paranoid Android · 2011-12-20, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for King of fashion:

I wanna see a crossover of Gilgamesh and Izaya

2011-12-16, 04:56	Link #6381
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Poor Saber. I'm assuming Waver in the foreground is the Rider version. __________________

2011-12-16, 13:28	Link #6384
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I missed two words. "I'm assuming Waver will be in the foreground in the Rider version." __________________

2011-12-16, 15:16	Link #6386
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	This image fits Gil perfectly. Could you call them holy relics? Do they belong in a museum? Do you want to take them home? Spoiler for Victims: The difference is also "why". Why is someone a victim. In the original example little children were being compared with Assassin. Both are victims, and would see death the same. But why are they victims? The child is a victim for no other reason but for the murderer to have fun. Assassin is a victim because he was attempting to kill Rider, Saber, Archer, and their masters. He became a victim when he became suddenly out numbered when at the start he outnumbered his enemies. It became kill or die for Rider and Assassin. It is a war, and people die (when they are killed). The rest is mutual differences in upbringing and ideology that rarely can be changed without profound events taking place in one's own life, thus there is little point if arguing over it. The only question that remains is "Than why have heros?" __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-12-16 at 15:31.

2011-12-16, 22:18	Link #6387
Master_Yoma Nekokota Festival Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lost in the Fairy Forest	Kirei Kotomine __________________

2011-12-18, 09:33	Link #6389
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Probably dumb question but who is Enkidu? I guess it is someone from Gilgamesh's story and if that's the case then where did you find Enkidu's Fate series designs? Was he and Jeanne D'arc shown in the game at some point? __________________ My anime list

2011-12-18, 22:15	Link #6394
lightsenshi Author Join Date: Nov 2010 Age: 53	__________________ Claymore: Beginnings

2011-12-19, 08:09	Link #6396
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Oh wow that's great! Hope that gets translated quickly. And now for something completely random: Spoiler for space: __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2011-12-20, 07:06	Link #6397
careph Join Date: Jan 2009	I see your random pic and raise by a few light-hearted images ... Spoiler: Spoiler for cards:

2011-12-20, 09:11	Link #6398
Kanon Kana Hanazawa ♥ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: France Age: 37	Spoiler for King of fashion: Where does the second to last outfit come from? HA? It looks a bit... well, gay. __________________