Fate/Zero - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[fedor mma]

Great episode but the wait will be the death of me.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

In essence yes, but it was much more to do with the pacing and placement of dialogue. Don't get me wrong, I like good dialogue shows like Mushishi, Spice and Wolf, but Fate/Zero just takes its too extreme imo, considering it is about a Holy Grail War and "action" is to be expected imo. Heck, I remember this series being compared to Game of Thrones HBO series earlier, and that had tons of dialogue too, but had good action scenes when it needed to deliver.

Game of Thrones has like 6-7 VERY SHORT action scenes throughout its 10 episode run(1 hour eps mind you). Fate Zero had entire episodes dedicated to action scenes. Besides, GoT has entire episodes with nothing but talking heads and that was what made it great.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by sento

Because bombing a hotel and kidnapped children is something that can be explained by mundane means.

And I don't swallow that meta-reasoning. You could said that about all fucking fiction then. Why I need to read The Lord of the Rings if it's pretty clear that Sauron will lose? Big deal.

Because there it was set up "properly", you get the nine who are pretty terrifying, and all the armies that it unleash upon the middle land. That makes it a decent villain. (In fact, still not a very good one consider all we see is just an eye).

Here we get only two things, (1) it is big, (2) if it gets to the city it will be unstoppable. As I said earlier, if they actually develop it more in the anime (not by talking, I hope), then it might make it a good cliffhanger. The novel reader know how bad ass it is, or what's going to come. But for me as a pure anime watcher, it lack tension because "hey, look, we get a big CG monster to fight." That's pretty much it.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Here we get only two things, (1) it is big, (2) if it gets to the city it will be unstoppable. As I said earlier, if they actually develop it more in the anime, then it might make it a good cliffhanger. The novel reader know how bad ass it is, or what's going to come. But for me as a pure anime watcher, it lack tension because "hey, look, we get a big CG monster to fight." That's pretty much it.

Well, you have a giant Cthulhu going into the city and a preview showing that all the participans will be involved... Is far enough for a "break". That's a decent cliffhanger.

But ok, then what you must be looking forward is if someone will go down and how this will affect all the participants and parties involved, as you know, at the end only one will win and the rest will perish.

And we have already some pretty nice development and foreshadowing to look forward to that.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Because there it was set up "properly", you get the nine who are pretty terrifying, and all the armies that it unleash upon the middle land. That makes it a decent villain. (In fact, still not a very good one consider all we see is just an eye).

Here we get only two things, (1) it is big, (2) if it gets to the city it will be unstoppable. As I said earlier, if they actually develop it more in the anime (not by talking, I hope), then it might make it a good cliffhanger. The novel reader know how bad ass it is, or what's going to come. But for me as a pure anime watcher, it lack tension because "hey, look, we get a big CG monster to fight." That's pretty much it.

Can you explain to me who the heck you "develop" what is clearly not a rational thing. I mean, it's a hulking monster. It eats. And we know it's going to be killed, somehow. We also know that something that big is kind of a threat, and if it gets to Fuyuki, the city's boned. That's tension right there.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Rethice

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

The premise of this story warrants at least some attention to the action.

Though the main focus of this story isn't particularly about being an action fest I think it's a bit dishonest to make a comparison to a show which % wise actually consisted of less action content wise and even at times made complete cut aways from action scenes. But you know what? That's what makes Game of Thrones great and that's also what makes Fate/Zero great to me. It's all about the dialogue to add importance to everything.

Not that you have to like this sort of series but I think it's foolish to expect anymore action from a series at this point that has clearly shown it is more than that. This series is most of all a spiritual quest by its main characters such as Kiritsugu, Saber, Kotomine, etc.

Take this finale for example. A large portion of the episode was devoted to Waver complaining to Rider or being emo () in other people's words. But what really was this all about? Well, why did Waver get in the war in the first place? Feeling put down by the magic association, particularly Kayneth, he truly wanted to justify and prove his way of magic as legitimate. He entered the war precisely because it was the very means to prove himself, the proper battleground to show his skills. But what happened? He summoned a servant that he feels he cannot even control. Not only that, he is so strong that he feels that the grail victory would be rather easy if he was capable of commanding Rider's obedience, essentially trivializing the war for him.

But what does this mean? It essentially means that his very reason for being in the war is gone. He is unable to prove himself in the manner he wished given his servant, and now he's lost. Winning the war in of it by itself is meaningless to him if it was handed to him on a silver platter. Right now Waver is currently engaged in a personal dilemma where he needs to find a way to find what he truly wants from the grail war now and how he will achieve it.

This is very representative of what I was talking about earlier, how Fate/Zero is almost like about a spiritual quest of its characters. Isn't it very fitting for this episode to be mostly about something like this?

Originally Posted by Rethice

Everything apart from the narrative failure of pacing was fantastic, but unfortunately that alone is enough to condemn what was supposed to be a fantasy epic for me.

Which leads me to question why in the world you would think this has pacing issues. Every episode save episode 10, one i criticized heavily, has had packed with all sorts of content like that I talked about above. If for some reason the 2nd cour is really rushed you'd have a point, but from what we seen so far, what truly has been rushed? We've been delivered so much essential and I would also say interesting character development throughout the story. And it's not like we haven't had our fair share of action either, with at least 3-4 episodes of this series already being fully packed with action already. This is especially considering that we will probably be having even more action to look forward to later, starting with the very first episode of the next cour.

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

@blue_sora: I hope you remove your spoiler before it hits more people.

Umm, it's not a spoiler because it's in the preview already I don't even finish reading the unadapted novel materials (I read only the adapted one to make a comparison and not to spoil myself) so I really can't spoil anyone because I don't know beyond what the preview implied to me

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Can you explain to me who the heck you "develop" what is clearly not a rational thing. I mean, it's a hulking monster. It eats. And we know it's going to be killed, somehow. We also know that something that big is kind of a threat, and if it gets to Fuyuki, the city's boned. That's tension right there.

It is not that hard to find examples. Take the first angel that appears in EVA. Why do we know it is bad ass? Using only one hand, it stops a big missile which then explodes. No damage. Then it takes an N2 mine and survives. Those scenes are some of the most memorable in anime. Of course we know Shinji is going to win the battle, but it is still exciting partly because he is facing a formidable foe. Here we don't know. Or we know because Iris said so. Maybe they'll do something awesome next season, we did see some fighter jets fly by. However, what we have seen doesn't make a good cliffhanger.

It is not a good cliffhanger because you can't have a cliffhanger when you are at the ground level, you have to bring your viewer to the edge of the cliff first.

[kk2extreme]

Why am I not surprise about a huge tenticle monster with Caster in it?

[Malkuth]

Too late and too many posts to quote, so I'm skipping that...

First of all, comparing F/Z with Rakkyou is baseless, not only the adaption had different format (26x20-minute TV episodes vs. 8 variable length movies), and most importantly different structure (linear vs. unordered chronologically) and scope (10-15 main characters vs. 2 developed through 5 antagonists).

GoT spent 1 hour per 100 pages, while F/Z half that, since it can not waste time with background scenery or multiple angles, they costs a lot more to animate (relatively speaking).

The so called cliffhanger was kind of dull, dunno it could be me, but I don't particularly care about the battle itself.

Assassin had next to zero background and development, he was just used as cannon fodder to justify action from the rest of the cast.

Also it might be the censoring, but deRais and Uryuu are very simplistic as villains. Nitro+ and Gen have written way better insane, controversial, and antipathetic characters... for 2011 examples... Kyubee and Moeka. Still I find it also simplistic to be in the center of bad criticism because they are "evil", instead of not being well written.

Rin's episode was totally out of place, and the only thing it managed was to make Uryuu more ridiculous.

Saber being underwhelming, well she actually was, is, and probably will be, like her heroic spirit didn't had what it took, and in F/Z it was made crystal clear in an excellent otherwise "wall of text" during the meeting of the kings.

About the dialogue, indeed there is a lot of it, and the placement is not the best possible, BUT the dialogues themselves are very well-written, avoid techno-bubble (unlike trash as index/horizon, where 90% of the text is insignificant to the plot), and exposition (unlike children shows, Naruto/Bleach, where 90% of the text describes the 10% of an episodes animation).

Animation and action... well, I also expected more quality (not quantity), in all honesty C3 with a fraction of the budget made better looking action scenes. I guess censoring did not help. On the other hand, I never minded talking heads, since in this kind of shows I have to read carefully the subtitles, it's more annoying in shows where nothing complicated is said, and therefore I become picky about the art and animation

Finally, about development, well for 13 episodes there isn't an awful lot of it. But that is to be expected when you have to flesh out such a huge cast. Mind you the only character that "developed" was Kotomine. But save for assassin, and to a lesser extend Matou/Tousaka sides the rest were presented flawlessly.

[jonli]

I actually don't mind the dialogue at all, but another friend of mine is constantly being disappointed that there is no action...and I sort of understand where he's coming from. Season 2 will have enough, I'm sure it won't disappoint.

Anyway, I really really really loved Rider and Waver this episode. It really solidifies Waver's character and where he is in his life, and how frustrated he is about it. Rider is a perfect mentor for him, and I'm sure it'll break my heart when the two part ways .

The music is so fucking epic, please come out witht he OST already!

[MrTerrorist]

What a cliffhanger! I just can't wait for April 2012.

10 out of 10.

[jeroz]

Are Uryuu and Caster your typical "villains" though?

From what we'd seen so far they are two artists out of their minds and living with a completely different life philosophy. It just happens that they don't care about other people's lives. It's funny how there's more harmony in this pair than your Kiritsugu-Saber. Yes they pose a threat, and yes hunting them down will gives the victor a reward. However I really can't see them as your usual stereotypical evil villains. They are a fun pair with interesting life ideas, and an anomaly in this competition.

[Iron Maw]

Felt like I just watched half an episode despite it being the usual length. Pretty anticlimactic way to end it. =/ I can see this hurting the show's momentum a bit for more causal viewers of series since a lot of the tension will undoubtedly be lost when it starts back up in April. Now I really wish episode 10 had been about something else (no offense to Rin fans ).

Still good episode for a character building and motivational perspective, mainly for Rider and Waver. Uryuu and Caster scenes didn't feel like they told you much more about their characters that you didn't already know thinking back on it. Caster summoning a bigger version of the monster his been using wasn't most exciting thing either. All in All an okay episode.

7/10 for the episode and 8/10 for the first half. Not the best show this season for me, but definitely one of the better ones.

[klare]

more were shown about Team Caster and yeah they are really crazy and random, they dont even discuss about how to win the grail

i think they successfully made Team Rider being the most likable team, was fun watching their interactions,

looking forward to April

[Qilin]

Man, this episode has some of the best dialogue in the entire series so far.

Specifically, the exchange between Ryuunosuke and Caster at the start shines a new light upon their characters instead of being labelled as just simple serial killers. Their short discussion concerning the nature of god in particular struck me as simultaneously horrifying and fascinating.

Of course, the interaction between Waver and Rider is also worth some praise. It feels so nice to see their relationship dynamic constantly developing.

As for the ending, it was nothing short of awesome. I really don't see what some people are complaining about. It's not the end of the series yet after all, nor was the episode inappropriately paced based on my perception.

I usually just lurk around these parts, but it makes me sad to see so little appreciation for the great dialogue scattered throughout the episode. Cheers.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Qilin

As for the ending, it was nothing short of awesome. I really don't see what some people are complaining about. It's not the end of the series yet after all, nor was the episode inappropriately paced based on my perception.

No it's not the end of the series, but rather the beginning of a very long wait

[Kallen4life]

GIL AND BERSERKER PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE


can't wait

[Xagzan]

God, that music right at the very end. Well played, Yuki Kajiura. So well played.

That was a pretty good episode, an exciting second half especially. Now, Uryu and Caster may have their own fleshed out and interesting reasons for doing what they do, but when it comes right down to it, I'm still going to label them as psycho serial murderers, which they are when placed in my world view. I was also a bit surprised to hear Alex address Saber right away as King of Knights, when the last time he left her he said he couldn't recognize her as a king.

Oh, and the second that car appeared on screen, I thought "Oh crap, Iri's driving."

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Assassin had next to zero background and development, he was just used as cannon fodder to justify action from the rest of the cast.

Too bad we didn't get the loli Assassin + Waver + Rider abandoned subplot.

Spoiler for image:

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Thess

Too bad we didn't get the loli Assassin + Waver + Rider abandoned subplot.

Spoiler for image:

I don't remember reading anything about that. In which act was this subplot?