One Piece - Chapter 651 [manga]

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

So many people already have this preconceived notion that Big Mom is the weakest emperor just because she's a woman and already getting in Luffy's way so early into the second half of the story. None of that really means anything, for we've been shown on numerous occasions that villains from past arcs are not always weaker than those of the present/future arcs. This isn't DragonBall where the strength progression is always linear; One Piece is more varied than that.

That being said, people are overrating Luffy and underrating Big Mom which is absurd.

[Prinnydood]

Originally Posted by Jouten

So many people think that Luffy won't be fighting anytime soon, because she is an emperor, but when has that ever happened in One Piece after Luffy challenged someone? Even IF Big Mom was way too strong for Luffy to beat then they would still fight, but Luffy would lose. Like he did against Crocodile or Aokiji. And actually if Luffy doesn't go for the emperors now, I don't know whom he shall take next in the new world. is goal is pirate king and he will have to beat an emperero sooner or later so why not having big mom as the first enemy, assuming she is the weakest emperor? Luffy already defeated 2 Shichibukai, so I don't see why it would seem unrealistic that Luffy can beat the weakest of the emperors. I think Doflamingo, Kuma and Mihawk will be even harder to beat than Big Mom (But we already know Mihawk is reserved for Zorro)
Perhaps it will be a three round fight where Luffy loses 2 of them like he did against Crocodile, but I don't see how there could be any other big enemy before facing Big Mom. And I don't think Big Mom is Admiral level, but she probably has a very powerful crew

Maybeeeeee... but if he fought Big Mom now and if Big Mom really is way stronger than he is then I really don't think she would let him live. It's not entirely unrealistic for him to fight her though. I don't think that they'll ever have to fight Donflamingo though and I doubt that Zoro will ever really fight Mihawk.

[noktown]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

So many people already have this preconceived notion that Big Mom is the weakest emperor just because she's a woman and already getting in Luffy's way so early into the second half of the story. None of that really means anything, for we've been shown on numerous occasions that villains from past arcs are not always weaker than those of the present/future arcs. This isn't DragonBall where the strength progression is always linear; One Piece is more varied than that.

That being said, people are overrating Luffy and underrating Big Mom which is absurd.

So many people think that "Emperor" is like God,which you can't touch unless you reach the "x" point in that person's mind.

What's the difference in power between an Admiral and Emperor ?Is there an actual difference ?This is no DBZ,you don't know how they achieved their title,while I'm sure they are strong,you don't know for a fact how strong they are,there might be schichibukais that are stronger than her,so Luffy defeated already 2 shichibukas,does that mean he can take on every other shichibukai ?Definitely not as we have seen.

[paradox13]

So many people already have this preconceived notion that Big Mom is the weakest emperor just because she's a woman and already getting in Luffy's way so early into the second half of the story. None of that really means anything, for we've been shown on numerous occasions that villains from past arcs are not always weaker than those of the present/future arcs. This isn't DragonBall where the strength progression is always linear; One Piece is more varied than that.

To be honest, it feels a lot like a repeat of Luffy's entrance to the Grand Line. At Whiskey Peak he picked a fight with Crocodile, now he's on Big Mom's hit list. The difference is that she's much stronger, less rational, and more brutal than Crocodile was, making her that much more dangerous to wage war with.

[marvelB]

I'm pretty much with Blackbeard D. Kuma on this one. OP doesn't follow the same kind of strength progression as DB did. Whether or not Big Mom is the weakest of the emperors isn't really important since all we really need to know is that the emperors are all insanely powerful in the first place. There's no doubt that she'd be a very tough match for Luffy.


And frankly, it would be boring as hell (and not to mention very sloppy on Oda's part) if the Straw-Hats just powered their way through the New World like it was nothing. Sure, the recent fight against Hody's crew was one-sided, but that was because those guys were inexperienced. I'd definitely say that we can expect different results from the NW veterans that Luffy and co. will eventually face....

Originally Posted by noktown

This is no DBZ,you don't know how they achieved their title,while I'm sure they are strong,you don't know for a fact how strong they are,there might be schichibukais that are stronger than her,so Luffy defeated already 2 shichibukas,does that mean he can take on every other shichibukai ?Definitely not as we have seen.

Yes, Luffy defeated two warlords, but also note that the ones he managed to beat weren't exactly cakewalks, either. I mean, Crocodile almost killed him three freaking times, and even Moria was a tough match for the Straw-Hats, despite being a fat, lazy slob. Technically, those two were also superior to Luffy, but ultimately lost because they underestimated him. On the other hand, I doubt that the emperors will take him as lightly from this point on, especially if they know of his past exploits before the time-skip (note that Big Mom was aware of Luffy's involvement in the war, for instance). If anything, the crew needs to prepare for even greater life-or-death struggles than they had while in Paradise (which, as I mentioned before, was kind of the whole point of their training in the first place).....



Oh, and adding to paradox13's above post, while Luffy technically did pick a fight with Crocodile upon arriving at the GL, note that he didn't face him right away, either. There was about 3 islands the Straw-Hats visited before they reached Alabasta (and even more islands than that before they encountered Moria!). So I definitely doubt that we'll be seeing Luffy square off against Big Mama right off the bat....

[White Silver King]

People give Luffy way more credit for beating Crocodile than he deserves. He used plot-no-jutsu to beat Crocodile. That's like saying he was stronger than Enel on Skypeia when he only won that fight because his DF just happened to be Enel's only weakness.

[grey_1960]

Teach
You guys argue that Luffy isn't strong enough but you know that Black Beard was not even strong enough to go against White Beard. White Beard was weak and tired from waging a war with the marines and he still kicked Black Beards ass. If you took the Marines out and had Black Beard Pirates Vs. White Beard, Black Beard would have lost big time. The only reason Black Beard was able to kill White Beard was because the Marines did all the work. Black Beard couldn't even defeat White beard by himself. His crew had to help him. So if we go with progression, Luffy is way to weak, the Yonkous are to powerful, or this is not what Oda does, then Black Beard should have never faced off with White Beard at all, because Black Beard was out classed in every way. Kinda weird that Black Beard D.Kuma would argue something like this when he carries the name of the man who made Yonkou off strongest man in the world. Regardless of how teach got the Yonkou title he came out on top. The real question is, is Teach really Yonkou material, or is it his devil fruit that makes him Yonkou material? I don't think the Yonkous or the top brass are untouchable for Luffy. Luffy's training was so he would not repeat Sabaody Archipelago again. I believe Rayleigh was true to his words when he took Luffy under him. Will there be tough times for Straw Hats, of course, but I don't think battles will be the same anymore for the straw hats.

[marvelB]

^Comparing Luffy to Blackbeard is one of those "apple and oranges" situations because once again, Teach is actually a veteran pirate, cowardly scumbag though he may be. Plus, he's a villain, so it's not unusual for the rest of us to not bat an eyelash at the way he killed Whitebeard (I know that I complained in the past about him running from Akainu, but I've long since accepted our portly friend's nature).


And really, I never said that the Yonkou were untouchable, I'm just saying that we shouldn't expect the Straw-Hats to breeze through them. IMO, it wouldn't be right for Luffy to suddenly become a Kenshiro-esque nigh-invincible protagonist after the skip (though the thought of a "Gomu Gomu no 'You're Already Dead'" is rather amusing ).....

[Mateus]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Teach
You guys argue that Luffy isn't strong enough but you know that Black Beard was not even strong enough to go against White Beard. White Beard was weak and tired from waging a war with the marines and he still kicked Black Beards ass. If you took the Marines out and had Black Beard Pirates Vs. White Beard, Black Beard would have lost big time. The only reason Black Beard was able to kill White Beard was because the Marines did all the work. Black Beard couldn't even defeat White beard by himself. His crew had to help him. So if we go with progression, Luffy is way to weak, the Yonkous are to powerful, or this is not what Oda does, then Black Beard should have never faced off with White Beard at all, because Black Beard was out classed in every way. Kinda weird that Black Beard D.Kuma would argue something like this when he carries the name of the man who made Yonkou off strongest man in the world. Regardless of how teach got the Yonkou title he came out on top. The real question is, is Teach really Yonkou material, or is it his devil fruit that makes him Yonkou material? I don't think the Yonkous or the top brass are untouchable for Luffy. Luffy's training was so he would not repeat Sabaody Archipelago again. I believe Rayleigh was true to his words when he took Luffy under him. Will there be tough times for Straw Hats, of course, but I don't think battles will be the same anymore for the straw hats.

No it's not entirely fair what Blackbeard did in order to get his new powers but after defeating Whitebeard with cunning use of his crew he more or less jumped way further in power than before. I mean look at the damage the combined power of Yami Yami & Gura Gura did to the Marine Capital during the Whitebeard war. Definitely comparing apples to oranges since when Luffy would never do something like that nor would he even less likely know how to go about doing it (whatever BB did beneath that black tarp).

[grey_1960]

Apples and Oranges
Look at the facts, Black Beard was way under powered compared to White Beard. Being a veteran,a scumbag, or saying what one person will do or not is irrelevant when the facts are there. The fact is Black Beard was not powerful enough to take the title or the Devil fruit from White Beard by force. If we are applying our argument that Luffy is not strong enough or ready to face of with a Yonkou then Black Beard should be in the same boat.

[Shingai-san]

I fail to see the point you're making Grey. BB GOT WBs Gura Gura no Mi. He is now nigh invincible assuming he has mastered the use of the fruit. Luffy is leagues behind BB in terms or experience and power.

[yakumo-chan]

there's no chapter this week?? damnn....

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Apples and Oranges
Look at the facts, Black Beard was way under powered compared to White Beard. Being a veteran,a scumbag, or saying what one person will do or not is irrelevant when the facts are there. The fact is Black Beard was not powerful enough to take the title or the Devil fruit from White Beard by force. If we are applying our argument that Luffy is not strong enough or ready to face of with a Yonkou then Black Beard should be in the same boat.

Blackbeard's carelessness and arrogance make him come off worse than what he actually is. Fact of the matter is that Teach is a very dangerous man. Here are some points to substantiate this:

1) The BB pirates (only 5 at the time) destroyed the entire Drum Kingdom forcing Wapol to flee from the country. He was terrified of their strength.

2) Blackbeard managed to scar Shanks even though the latter wasn't being careless. This was even before he acquired the darkness fruit.

3) Shanks felt it was absolutely necessary to have Whitebeard call back Ace due to the danger that Blackbeard poses. He knew full well what the consequences would be should those two encounter each other.

4) Validating Shanks' concern for Ace, Blackbeard indeed proved to be overwhelming for Luffy's elder brother. Teach defeated Ace with moderate difficulty, the result of which immediately earned him a spot in the shichibukai. Mind you that Teach was a complete unknown quantity at this point. No one knew who he was (not even Vice Admiral Crane), and thus he lacked the reputation to intimidate pirates. However, his strength alone and the "Ace in the hole" he gave the WG were more than enough to grant him shichibukai status.

5) Teach freed the very best of the Level 6 prisoners from Impel Down (monsters who had their existence "erased" because their crimes were so atrocious in the past). These monsters have terrifying strength in their own right, which means they'll only subordinate themselves to someone they deem truly powerful and worthy of their respect.

6) An enraged Whitebeard (the very same who temporarily took out Akainu in only 2 hits) still failed to put Blackbeard down. Teach was up and fine despite taking such a beating from the old man. That is truly a testament to his monstrous durability/endurance.

7) Blackbeard wielding both the darkness and quake abilities openly challenged the legendary marine duo of Sengoku and Garp. While that may be recklessness/overestimation on Teach's part, that nonetheless still says something about his strength.

8) The Gorosei commented that only the remaining emperors and the remnants of the WB pirates would be able to stop Blackbeard's tyranny in the New World.

With all that being said, this was even before the time-skip occurred. Blackbeard has now had 2 whole years to master the darkness and quake fruits. The fact that he's become an emperor should put to rest the underestimation this guy gets. He's now amongst the elites.

While Luffy's achievements and feats have been very impressive in their own right, he's just not in Blackbeard's league. Even now, it's questionable if he's superior to Ace and Jimbei. Someone of that level will lose to an emperor.

[grey_1960]

Confusion
Shingai-san and Black Beard D. Kuma, you guys got my post confused. I am not saying if black beard is powerful or not. I don't care what his achievement or what he has now. What I am trying to is make a point using Black Beard.

Argument
Is Luffy ready to fight a Yonkou or a top level fighter? How Powerful is Luffy? Are Yonkous and the top brasses untouchable? Will Luffy be fighting these top Players anytime soon? How powerful are the Straw Hats? Were to they stand when compared to the worlds top fighters? These are the arguments that have been happening on and off in every new chapter forum that comes up. I am supporting that Luffy can fight with the top fighters, and that they may be a big fight between him and the top brass coming soon.

Evidence Supporting that Argument
Black Beard taking down White Beard and taking the title Yonkou when he was no were near the power White Beard was to support that case. Is it so far fetched for Luffy to battle a top fighter so soon into his entrance in the New World? Black Beard was no wear near White Beards level. Look at him now. He has White Beard's territory, fruits, and title. I was pointing out Black Beards power gap with White Beard was to show that you don't need to be on par with Yonkous or top fighters to take them down or to fight with them.

[Randrak42]

Highly doubt Luffy has surpassed Ace...much less reach Yonkou level...

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

@grey1960 - so you're suggesting it'll be a collaborative effort that takes down Big Mom (since it took all the Blackbeard pirates to kill Whitebeard)? That just reinforces Big Mom's superiority over Luffy. You're conceding that Luffy alone can't beat Big Mom.

[grey_1960]

^
That not what I said at all. If you want you can read the post again. How you got that Idea from the post I don't know.

[Shingai-san]

I would say that Luffy has surpassed Ace, Ace had CoK haki, but he was never seen using the 2 other types of Haki. That already gives Luffy an advantage of Ace. Luffy was also trained directly by Rayleigh which has to measure for something.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

I was pointing out Black Beards power gap with White Beard was to show that you don't need to be on par with Yonkous or top fighters to take them down or to fight with them.

Those are your exact words, my friend. Blackbeard killed Whitebeard through a collaborative effort (his whole crew jumped in). You've also been saying that Blackbeard was outclassed by Whitebeard. So what exactly is your point then?

[paradox13]

Even now, it's questionable if he's superior to Ace and Jimbei. Someone of that level will lose to an emperor.

Currently Luffy is an unknown quantity. I would he say it is more likely that he is stronger than Ace and Jimbei then not.

I feel it is too early to comment on whether or not he is strong enough to beat Big Mom. It is definitely possible for him to beat Big Mom even if he is not strong enough (see Crocodile, Gecko Moria battles). In fact, Luffy has been the (massive) underdog in most of his major fights (except the early East Blue ones and the recent Hody Jones arc).