2012-02-07, 20:25 | Link #181 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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That also goes back to what I initially posted about. In the context of fantasy is very different from reality. Just as I wouldn't want my wife to behave like some anime characters whose behavior seems appealing in a show, a visualization of a woman's fantasy doesn't necessarily mean that she wants that fantasy within the context of reality.
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2012-02-07, 21:06 | Link #182 | ||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Actually, as a VN player - both eroge and otherwise - I'm quite used to coming to enjoy romantic encounters in such games with girls I wouldn't typically go for by now. I named one of my PCs after a VN character who I disliked through some of the early parts of the game because the relationship between her and the player character was so effective in the game, and a USB hard drive after her pet hamster. Quote:
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2012-02-07, 21:17 | Link #183 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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I don't really know what to say Maybe we're just wired that way... |
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2012-02-07, 22:32 | Link #184 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 47
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My understanding of the notion (which is likely flawed) is the idea of being wanted (to the point that the guy will go anything to have her, including rape). While the play "Jekyll and Hyde" is quite moving, I have not understood the female desire to have Mr. Hyde. The closest I can come up with is that he represents a primal desire over Dr. Jekyll's more traditional lifestyle (for Victorian days at least). But also I think some of it cames from a desire to "change him", to fix him somehow so he's not evil, but still plays evil in the bedroom. Somehow I get a similar impression from most films were the man that is after the woman is basically evil. Sexy evil, but still evil. Even if it is the misunderstood form....such as Phantom of the Opera.
I don't know if this is a common thing with women. Or if it is just something primal, such as "the evil guy with power can provide for me, even if he is evil". I'm attempting to find a logical reason for it, since there would be no rational reason possible.
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2012-02-07, 22:50 | Link #185 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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There's a big difference between fantasy and reality. I must say, this is a really interesting book, though. I was surprised by how many of the fantasies that were written are things that I've heard of before, on the male side of sexual fantasy. It's interesting to get the other side's take on it. Of course, it's worth remembering that these fantasies are written in by individuals, and don't necessarily speak for all (or even most) women. Just figured I'd mention that in case some guys now have the idea that all women are fantasizing about having someone force sex upon them...
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2012-02-07, 23:00 | Link #186 |
phantom loser
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: toronto
Age: 41
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chiibi has read more shojo than most people so she has a better idea about the majority of it that's made.
i haven't read a shoujo manga but i do watch some of the shoujo anime that comes out... lemme go through and see how anti-feminist they are... fruits basket - i think the main character was pretty strong but she takes a lot of unnecessary abuse, which she fights with kindness. i'm on the fence. kimi no todoke - can't think of anything anti-feminist other than the fact the boy helps the main character come out of her shell, like she can't do it by herself nodame - main male character is a huge jerk - i know someone tried to break this down but i say it's antifeminist - +1 bokura ga ita - nice girl tames douchey playboy... +1 ouran high school host club - strong female character and dork male lead. i guess the guys are rich but i don't put any meaning to it. ituzara no kiss - this is the textbook example of what they are talking about in this thread +1 kaichou wa maid sama - i'd say yes to this one. strong female character wants to get dominated by an even stronger guy +1 lovely complex - female character is a dummy but so is the male character. paradise kiss - doesn't get married at the end but she lives a dull life and some fashion designer comes and sexes her and turns her world around. a story about a girl who needs some guy to tell her how to live life +1 peach girl - don't know what to make of this one - i'll leave it alone toradora - i'd say this is not that offensive Aishiteruze Baby - pretty unoffensive too that small sample tallies to 5/12 not bad |
2012-02-08, 00:00 | Link #187 | |
My Girl ↓
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Update: Ortigas, Pasig, Phillippines
Age: 36
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I say Maid-sama is feminist, since Misaki is on even footing with Usui and only a couple of other characters can match them in terms of awesomeness.
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2012-02-08, 00:28 | Link #188 | |
Vanitas owns you >:3
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OHHHHH so, THAT'S why!! It's flattery to them? That's.......weird. XD I can't get on board with that. Why would anyone want to be treated with as much respect as a sex toy just because she's "so beautiful"....wtf...no. But thanks, that's a question I'd been pondering for a long long LONG time! (why rape is such a popular fantasy)
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2012-02-08, 02:27 | Link #189 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Again, it's worth mentioning that these are fantasies, and the women who submitted them to the book remark that they detest the thought of a real rape (or, for some, were in a real situation where they could have been raped, and they fought back against it and averted it). Also, while there are some similar themes behind them, many of these fantasies are fairly unique. I have to say, they're much more detailed and complicated than men's fantasies (which usually involve little more than a woman or women with an attractive body and a reason, even if ill-conceived, for having sex). One could argue that many of these fantasies are reflective of something about the woman who harbors them, whether it's somehow a need to feel something that is missing in her life, or just a sexual fetish. It's interesting in that it causes me to re-evaluate what's considered to be anti-feminist. In terms of fantasy, if women harbor many of the same fantasies that men do, then is the media really harmful? Granted, not all women have the same fantasies, and some may find these media fantasies to be insulting... but should it be? I think it's a bit more clear-cut when there's anti-feminism in reality, but as far as media fantasy goes I think it's a bit more difficult. Even then, I suppose one should also consider who the fantasy is supposed to cater to.
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2012-02-08 at 02:33. Reason: Clarity |
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2012-02-08, 02:29 | Link #190 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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But at least he cares about her and treats her right. Unlike many other shoujo mangas. |
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2012-02-08, 21:20 | Link #191 |
Vanitas owns you >:3
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That is the most important thing.
I've only seen one episode of the anime but what I gather from Usui is that he's a little bit of an instigator (likes to rattle Misaki's cage on purpose) so that could count as a character flaw, maybe?
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2012-02-08, 21:43 | Link #193 | |
Vanitas owns you >:3
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Hmm, well then is Usui naturally talented or does he make a major effort to beat Misaki in everything?
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2012-02-09, 13:33 | Link #194 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I highly disagree that either Fruits Baskets or Nodame Cantabile are anti-feminist.
For Fruits Basket I don't recall Tohru taking that much "abuse". She does seem too unrealistic at first in how much she gives of herself but this is addressed in the manga in relation to her feelings for Kyo & her mother. She's not perfect by any means. Although I've seen in general "nice girls" like Tohru are often looked down upon. It's not Tohru that is anti-feminist but the attitude that a female character can only be a certain way to be a well written female character. In the end Spoiler:
As for Nodame Cantabile, Chiaka is your classic male Tsundere. Yes there are moments of "comedy abuse" between him & Nodame but this is no different then those comic scenes when the girl beats up on the guy in many a shounen story). Granted I am not the biggest fan of this type of comedy but it's something I accept as just comedy. And it would be a double standard if I accepted when the girl does it in shounen stories, but not Chiaki in Nodame. So yeah sometimes Chiaki acts tough on Nodame in the typical Tsundere fashion but pay attention it's Chiaki not Nodame who ends up changing the most in terms of their relationship. Its Chiaki who enters the "Hentai forest". It's Chiaki who always runs after Nodame. Chiaki stays with Nodame because despite who he thinks he is initially, Nodame will always be his inspiration. She opened up his world for him by introducing him to her weirdness & Chiaki accepting he wants that weirdness in his life. In fact even without Nodame, Chiaki is drawn to weird situations. And finally Nodame who originally wants to become a musician on the world stage because of Chiaki eventually realizes she wants to do it for herself.
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2012-02-09 at 13:46. |
2012-02-09, 14:28 | Link #195 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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So, for example, if you say above that part of women's rape fantasies come from a repression of desires, then catering to those fantasies gives them an outlet for these feelings, which in turn continues a structure that represses female desire in such a way, that more women will have rape fantasies. It's not the rape fantasies that are the problem; it's the double standard: promiscuous males are hunks/promiscuous females are sluts. Catering to female rape fantasies (in that one aspect) helps continue this trend, by letting both genders pretend there is no problem. But not catering to those rape fantasies means depriving women of that outlet, so they'll have to deal with it differently. Simply put, short-term goals are at odds with long-term goals. There is no easy solution. It's not even easy to get people to agree what the problem is in the first place. I'd discourage binary thinking: it's either right or wrong. Because "harmful" depends on your vision: short-term harmful? Long-term harmful? The ultimate goal is respect for female sexuality, isn't it? You nibble at all corners, without pointing fingers in a this-good/that-bad manner. |
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2012-02-10, 09:26 | Link #197 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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It should be on everyone's watch list. And I agree with Kirarakim, there's no way I would call Nodame Cantabile anti-feminist. Nodame isn't an obvious standard-bearer for feminism the way Saiunkoku Monogatari's Shurrei or Hataraki Man's Hiroko are. But Nodame's career plans and development as a musician are important themes throughout the show. There's no way she can be seen as just Chiaki's doormat; if anything those roles are reversed from time to time like this:
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2012-02-10, 15:11 | Link #198 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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Yeah, I'd say Chiaki is fairly tsundere, he's also a bit OCD. Nodame's the opposite... SEE THE SPARKS (of love) FLY.
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For instance, I would consider Madame Bovary to be feminist (or not anti-feminist), the central character, Madame Bovary, is intelligent, and yearns for an exciting luxurious life inspired by the novels she reads, all the while she's married to a boring husband. So in order to live up to those dreams, she has extra marital affairs, and accrues mountains of debt in order to live out her fantasies. Madame Bovary is neither good or bad. She does many bad things, but does so for reasons we can understand. Something that's feminist features realistic multidimensional female characters, and just as "male" novels can feature incredibly flawed male characters, so should they contain flawed female characters. I really should read madame bovary (I've been meaning to for a while) The key thing is that they treat female characters as they would treat male characters. The female characters are not passive participants. There's a strange thing that happens with female characters and their "goodness". We never require male characters to be "good role models" we love Macbeth for his ambition and viciousness, we love Don Quixote for his idealistic madness. And yet when we talk about female characters we often include phrases along the lines of "she's a great role model", like female characters need to have moral worth to be good characters. So I think Nodame is a great character, who passes a feminist test, She has talents, she has goals, she's unique, and she grows. In terms of Romantic comedy she's great (we're not looking for Madame Bovary style train wrecks in such a genre ). |
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2012-02-11, 05:23 | Link #199 | |
Autistic NEET artist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: France
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Also, I would rather imagine my ideal shoujo manga but the problem is that I read/watch loads of shounen romance. I just hope it will be better than Kameruka's shoujo stories : The story is about a highschool girl who lives in a normal life until one day a mysterious, handsome boy poped out of nowhere destroys half of the city. Everyone, save for the highschool girl, are dead, so the only way to stop the boy destroying everything is to make a "love promise" and confess that to him.
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Last edited by MisaoFan; 2012-02-11 at 06:31. |
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2012-02-11, 08:42 | Link #200 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Anyways I would recommend the book cautiously. I liked it because I feel if you read it closely it sympathizes with both Madame Bovary and her husband but a friend of mine who read it did have issues with Madame Bovary (who might be a character that is hard to identify with). I do agree with you that a female character doesn't have to just be a good role model (although I can't say I wouldn't want to see more of that in fiction) but a great female character should have her own story. Too often in fiction the female character's role is reduced to being about the male character's story and this is a bit frustrating. Sorry for going a bit OT there. But anyways back to Nodame Cantabile. one of the reasons I like the story so much is Nodame reminds me of the great screwball heroines of the comedies from the 1930's or she even gives me glimpses of Lucille Ball from I love Lucy (with Chiaki obviously playing the straight man like Desi Arnaz who just can't help falling for the girl despite her crazy antics)
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