[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Toku]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The definition of red and gold I used were based on what I read red and gold where, if I'm not wrong in Umineko game 8.

I wrote down the quote somewhere but now I can't track it down anymore... -_-

If you can find those quotes and explain why you believe in these particular definitions of Red and Gold, I'd be interested to hear it. I understand that my interpretation is just one of many. Though, I guess it didn't sound that way when I made the post...

Thank you a lot! You're a lifesaver!

It's already helped me many times. Being able to ctrl+F the script is incredibly useful, isn't it?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Toku

If you can find those quotes and explain why you believe in these particular definitions of Red and Gold, I'd be interested to hear it. I understand that my interpretation is just one of many. Though, I guess it didn't sound that way when I made the post...

Okay, I found the quote about the gold truth... I'm trying to track down the one about the red as well...

It's not an exact definition but I guess it's explicative enough...

`"Th, ......this is...... Can Endless Nine really do this...?! E, even the red truth......doesn't work?!! Just what is this golden truth?!! What kind of golden truth could defeat red truth......?!!!"`
`"A believing heart. ......This is 'our' consensus. ......Compared to the truth that we all acknowledge and share, your red truth can't hurt anything."

Originally Posted by Toku

It's already helped me many times. Being able to ctrl+F the script is incredibly useful, isn't it?

*nods* and the best part is that it's easier to track down things...

[Captain Bluebeard]

My interpretation of the Golden Truth, is that it's basically what we 'see'. For example, Beatrice the Young performs the trick with candy in the overturned cup, and then her sister declares in Gold: 'You just performed a splendid bit of magic'. Is it true? Then does magic exist? Not necessarily. Gold can be superior or inferior to the red in some cases.

What Willard says also confirms that theory, when he says something like 'tales of the Golden Truth'. The Golden Truth is what our eyes see, so we end up accepting it without needing proof. Yet there are some cases when we are doubtful, so we demand proof so as to be convinced, and that's when the red becomes superior.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Just got through the quizzes. I must admit, I was somewhat expecting Erika to arrive at the door just before Ange went to Beato/Battler. Is their quiz ever given? I only got nine coins. I felt proud for getting Jessica's and George's quiz right (I took a wiki walk a while ago ) , and kicked myself when I got Genji's and Rosa's wrong. The entire thing seemed ridiculous right down to the childish appearance of the interface ("Ask Aunt Eva!") It reminds us that in the end, we can't take what we hear both in game and out of the game as the one fact, and we'd have to be open to all interpretations of the catbox. So for now, the Ushiromiya family is a happy and fun one.
Also, Rosa's question took me by surprise. I was too busy laughing to think it through though.

[AuraTwilight]

About Beato's and Battler's question...

Spoiler for Quiz:

It's made at the end of the episode, and your answer will determine your ending. I would make a save point for easy access when you're almost there.

[Kylon99]

I always thought that the EP8's puzzles was a way of showing us the other end of the entire spectrum of thought-games.

The idea being that detective novels are sometimes nothing more than glorified puzzle games; as per what Van Dine says. ("The detective story is a game. It is more--it is a sporting event.") If you take away the literary aspects of the detective novel, I thought you would theoretically arrive at a puzzle game.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Hey, for Bern's game, is there only one culprit? Just a yes or no will suffice. In the rules a lot of it says "a culprit can lie." but then where it talks about the purple specifically it says "the culprit alone can lie."

Nevermind, read Beato's and Battler's hints

[GreyZone]

You are able to select multiple culprits in "culprit select", so yes, it is possible for more than one culprit to exist. A culprit is someone, who killed at least once, as stated in the rules and it is not limited to 1 person anywhere.

A thing that is very confusing... after all van dine rules states that only 1 culprit is allowed, but it seems Will is not the creator of this game^^

[RandomAvatarFan]

Yeah, well, I don't mean to be a goat on Knox or Van Dine, but those rules or more or less guidelines to make the literature enjoyable. How would you feel if it turned out that the detective just accidentally falls into the trap door where he sees the culprit preparing the next murder? If it breaks Van Dine's or Knox's rules but it's possible for a reader to reason through it anyhow, it's not that big of a deal. Bern's game was definitely on the easier side.

I will say though, once I finish Bern's game, I just couldn't peel myself away from the screen. Rokkenjima falls into the sea of fragments, eaten away to nothing by the goats (were they supposed to be us?) Ange breaking into the chapel to steal the Book of One Truth and then stealing it back from the City. The Bern-Lambda battle was absolutely epic! Candy versus Cats! The Siege Erika had brought upon the Golden Land. And at the end of it all:
Beatrice used magic to create the candy in her hand. It was a beautiful piece of magic. and happy ending.

But... wasn't it our job as readers to deny the magic, and reason out what was written in Eva's diary, the Single Truth? Is it really as "uninteresting" as Battler says it is? I have a feeling denying Beatrice's magic at the end there would lead to a "bad ending", even if it also lead to the truth.

However all in all, I'm happy with my choice for now. It made a very nice ending to the saga, and I'm satisfied with it. I felt the reunion with Tohya was pushing a little bit. The only thing to do now is to let it soak through and go through the first games again.

[AuraTwilight]

But... wasn't it our job as readers to deny the magic, and reason out what was written in Eva's diary, the Single Truth? Is it really as "uninteresting" as Battler says it is? I have a feeling denying Beatrice's magic at the end there would lead to a "bad ending", even if it also lead to the truth.

This is pretty much everyone's main complaint with the ending of Umineko.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

But... wasn't it our job as readers to deny the magic, and reason out what was written in Eva's diary, the Single Truth? Is it really as "uninteresting" as Battler says it is? I have a feeling denying Beatrice's magic at the end there would lead to a "bad ending", even if it also lead to the truth.

When R07 wrote Umineko, he was writing a story of the Mystery genre. However, what most people don't understand, is that he always had the intent of changing it to a story of the Fantasy genre. It shouldn't be something new to us when we reach the end of EP8 and we find that it's taken this direction. If anything, reading Umineko is like a battle against a witch. After all, he put all of his effort into making this story, so he wants us to challenge it seriously.

We are goats, yes. However, that doesn't mean he hates us (he's already confirmed that that is a misinterpretation). We are like opponents in a game of chess. He acknowledges a worthy opponent, but he dislikes it when people don't even try to trust him, and therefore don't bother to form any Gold Truth of their own at all.

You were probably going to find these links on your own, but I'll go ahead and give them to you, as they'll help you a lot on your way to finding the truth:
Answer to the Golden Witch interview - http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/
Our Confessions summary - http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...70#post3927670

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

But... wasn't it our job as readers to deny the magic, and reason out what was written in Eva's diary, the Single Truth? Is it really as "uninteresting" as Battler says it is? I have a feeling denying Beatrice's magic at the end there would lead to a "bad ending", even if it also lead to the truth.

Yes and no. First of all, Eva's diary is a concept introduce at around the middle of EP8, so it can't have been our objective as readers all along, can it? I never expected Ryukishi to give out the truth of Prime in EP8, so I thought it a little wierd to see that coming up, but in the end, revealing the truth wasn't it's reason for appearing. Anyway, our goal as readers was to explain the mysteries, in my opinion. I think what Ryukishi07 intented was for us to 'understand' magic and Beatrice's heart rather than deny them. That impression starts being οbservable as early as EP4 (well, that's actually the middle of the series, but doesn't it seem soooo far away somehow?)

However all in all, I'm happy with my choice for now. It made a very nice ending to the saga, and I'm satisfied with it. I felt the reunion with Tohya was pushing a little bit. The only thing to do now is to let it soak through and go through the first games again.

Maybe it goes like this: If Ange accepts magic, the miracle she had wished for actually happens in the end, and she gets her older brother back, whereas if she doesn't, she turns into a really sad being who can't trust anything but red words.

Originally Posted by Toku

We are goats, yes. However, that doesn't mean he hates us (he's already confirmed that that is a misinterpretation). We are like opponents in a game of chess. He acknowledges a worthy opponent, but he dislikes it when people don't even try to trust him, and therefore don't bother to form any Gold Truth of their own at all.

I don't think we, the readers are the goats. Though through Umineko it kinda gives the impression that Ryukishi feels a little contempt towards those who don't try to trust him (through the series, of course), I don't think he makes 'us' into the goats eating the Golden Land. My theory is that they are the people of the future who are just hooked by the interesting and inexplicable event, lusting themselves at imagining and supposing what could have been, or baptizing people as culprits. Those people are writing over Beato's truth of the Golden Land with new truths that want a tragedy on the island, and that's why they are 'eating up' the Golden Land and all of its residents.

Then again, that's nothing more than my own, personal view.

[GreyZone]

The goats only opposed the mystery (aside from the "thinking is useless"-goats). I find it quite weird to be honest... no one of them tried to find out what really happened on Rokkenjima.

Well... in the human world, when the diary was about to be opened, it was different i guess...

[alarmadadna hadi]

Well... in the human world, when the diary was about to be opened, it was different i guess...

As I am one of those who believe that diary did not really exist in prime and was meant as an indirect test for ange and the "confusing" message as judged by erika, and that it only contained a gameboard level truth (I don't care about featherines red truths confirming it as red truth doesn't exist in the real world nor for the narrators flimsy affirmation of its authenticity), I entertain the theory that that "diary" was forged by a witch hunter or even ikuko's publishing company for publicity. It would feel ikuko-like to go along with it and, just as the forger party is expecting reward, rub it in their face and not reveal it.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by alarmadadna hadi

As I am one of those who believe that diary did not really exist in prime and was meant as an indirect test for ange and the "confusing" message as judged by erika, and that it only contained a gameboard level truth (I don't care about featherines red truths confirming it as red truth doesn't exist in the real world nor for the narrators flimsy affirmation of its authenticity), I entertain the theory that that "diary" was forged by a witch hunter or even ikuko's publishing company for publicity. It would feel ikuko-like to go along with it and, just as the forger party is expecting reward, rub it in their face and not reveal it.

Originally Posted by EP8 ???-TP

`After realizing that Itouikukuro was Hachijo Tohya, I went to her publishing company to ask for an interview, but I didn't get one.`@

`At the time, I despised her.`\

`Back in the beginning, I thought she might have used the Rokkenjima mystery as a publicity stunt to advance herself,`@` ......but now I feel a bit grateful to her.`@

`If she hadn't refused to show the diary in such an outrageous way,`@` the Rokkenjima cat box might still be the plaything of countless goats.`\

`She was indeed a Forger who had toyed with the cat box, and I still had an uneasy feeling about her.`@

`However, at the same time, she was the one who, practically speaking, allowed Rokkenjima to rest in peace.`\

`And......did she really reach the truth?`@

`Why did she reach something that was infinitely close to the truth, 'even from my perspective'?`@

`Even now, after all these years,`@` .........that's something I've wanted to know, if I could.`\

I personally think that the ???-TP from EP8 is the ONLY thing that we can trust 100% (aside from the golden land illusion at the end). It just doesn't make sense for this epilouge to be just another "fake".

So the diary, be it faked or not, did exist. We also got to know here that Ange never went to 19^9 in 1998

[Drifloon]

My pet theory is that the Book of the Single Truth didn't even contain a narrative and mostly contained things that were unrelated to the truth of the incident (it's Eva's diary after all), but there was a line somewhere in there saying 'None of them will ever come back', which is what caused Ange to deny it.

I mean, Featherine just said it contained the truth of Rokkenjima 1986. She never said it contained ONLY that, and she never said it contained a detailed explanation of the entire truth (which it can't have, since it didn't explain about Battler sort-of-surviving). You could argue against this interpretation with the images that are shown when Ange opens the book, but you could also say those are just Ange anticipating what the contents may be before she actually reads it, or any other number of explanations. I just like this theory and feel like it explains E8 the best, so I'm going to keep it as my personal golden truth.

[GreyZone]

The book of one truth is only "Eva's truth". It is from her perspective and can contain falsehoods.

After all just as red truth does not exist in the real world, a "completly reliable detective" does not exist either.
Although... today we could use cameras as a tool for both a "detective" and "red truth"... but in 1986 it is unlikely that someone recorded the events...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The book of one truth is only "Eva's truth". It is from her perspective and can contain falsehoods.

After all just as red truth does not exist in the real world, a "completly reliable detective" does not exist either.
Although... today we could use cameras as a tool for both a "detective" and "red truth"... but in 1986 it is unlikely that someone recorded the events...

Unless the book of one truth and Eva's diary are two separate things the book of one truth should cointain THE TRUTH.
However factually right truth can still lead to wrong interpretations.
So if Eva wrote 'I saw George lying on the ground, dead and Kyrie holding a still smoking gun' we're all lead to think Kyrie shot George when Kyrie might have shot to someone who was in George's direction and that now had escaped/had hidden.
Also, even if Kyrie had shot George we wouldn't know why she did so.
If George had just tried to attack her Kyrie might have shot her in self defence. If George had told her he just killed... let's say Rudolf, Kyrie might have shot in retaliation. Not a good thing but it's more understandable than Kyrie murdering George because she had nothing better to do or because she wanted to murder everyone to get the money.

Though I think the worst part for Ange would be if the diary were to tell her that Eva is innocent (even without naming a culprit) and none will come back.

It would shatter her hope of seeing again her family and, at the same time, making her hate pointless without giving her any real answer beyond the person you suspected was innocent.

[RandomAvatarFan]

No, the Book of One Truth and Eva's diary are the same thing, if we follow the way the magic and real life twists around with Featherine and Ikuko.

So if Eva wrote 'I saw George lying on the ground, dead and Kyrie holding a still smoking gun' we're all lead to think Kyrie shot George when Kyrie might have shot to someone who was in George's direction and that now had escaped/had hidden.
Also, even if Kyrie had shot George we wouldn't know why she did so.
If George had just tried to attack her Kyrie might have shot her in self defence. If George had told her he just killed... let's say Rudolf, Kyrie might have shot in retaliation. Not a good thing but it's more understandable than Kyrie murdering George because she had nothing better to do or because she wanted to murder everyone to get the money.

This is exactly what I feel too. It's the only truth that was from October 1986 to make it to 1998 and on, but the truth inside it is not objective. The goats and Witch-Hunters will stop and back off because to them, it's the same as the red truth, the only thing truth they will trust. It may contain what Eva saw, and what she was thinking, but like Will might say "It ignores the heart." The book has an account of the events, but not the absolute confession, unless Eva has powers of perception like that of Erika's.

[Kealym]

Also, just to make the argument, it's also entirely possible that in addition to being entirely objective in style, Eva's diary could be EXTREMELY comprehensive. Meaning, it's possible that she slept very little, directly witnessed a very large amount of the action, and described it thoroughly. Of course, this idea, at an extreme, won't account for every thing every person did for 48 hours, but alot of you seem to be assuming that what she witnessed was very close to the EP7 Tea Party, which was practically nothing.

I mean, yeah, it's possible she was "Kyrie standing over a dead George, holding a smoking gun", and made certain assumptions. It's also possible she saw, say, "George shivs Rudolf in the face for no readily apparent reason, runs off, encounters pissed off Kyrie who shoots him" while Eva herself was too stunned or far away to intervene in either scenario. I mean, jeez, all we know for sure is that people are dead, and Eva is, like, 99.96% probably innocent.