Is downloading anime still worth it?

[indistinct]

Before I go on, I'm not very good with messageboards in general, so if this is in the wrong forum, please move it.

I've been downloading anime for about a year now. I've never downloaded music, movies, warez, etcetera-- and I've always felt uncomfortable downloading anime (i.e. unlicensed anime), I've always felt that what I was doing was a form of theft. Theft with no consequence is still theft, and is wrong on every scale; ethical, legal, and religious (with the the three always intertwined of course). There is no adequate argument to justify theft, especially in the First World where support is available when you're in dire need. I've never felt I was "promoting" anime by downloading it, because none of my friends take a serious interest in anime, and only watch it casually. Furthermore, the obligation of American anime fans to promote shows has become miniscule, more titles are licensed than not, and frankly not seeing one or two titles one of ten is not a death sentence. With that in mind, my only reason for downloading anime is self-indulgence, to see a show sooner rather than later, with that argument as the backbone for my actions, dowloading licensed and unlicensed shows is one and the same. However, I have chosen not to download licensed shows, and I feel that my actions are not only illegal and ethically wrong, but also illogical.

And from a personal perspective, I have found that watching so much anime is beggining to interfere with my life. I'm a college student, I have a job, a relationship, and other hobbies. I've noticed that I've had to compromise some of these to watch and download anime.

So I was wondering if there is still any argument left as to why anyone should continue downloading anime.

Sorry about the length, and thanks for reading.

[microlith]

Well those are your reasonings behind questioning anime downloads. Fansubbing has never been legal, and I make no bones about that (and will correct anyone who states otherwise.) People fansub and download regardless, and if you've noticed my arguments on this board elsewhere, I've basically stated outright that true fansubbing is dead (and it's commuted mostly to a form of 0-day warez.)

And yet it continues. I'll support the companies over the fansubbers any day though (see my support of MFI in their request to have their shows not be fansubbed.)

If you don't agree with fansubs, it -is- possible to ignore them entirely like many people I know and only buy licensed DVD releases (assuming you can afford to follow them.)

So I was wondering if there is still any argument left as to why anyone should continue downloading anime.

The question should be one you ask yourself, "Is anime worth my time, effort, and money"; that seems to be a major factor here since you have so many other obligations and interests.

[MakubeX2]

You can take comfort in the fact that you are not alone in downloading anime. Even the Japanese themselves do it as 70% of the anime produced in Japan are being aired on Cable TV and the average Japanese aren't rich enough to subscribe to all of them.

Of course, if you still fell guilty, you can try to import the DVDs in from Japan and the US provided that, yes, if you rich enough to do so.

Regarding the fact that you have sacrifieced your other commitments to Anime-related acitivities.I'll start answering your question by saying "Welcome To The Life Of An Otaku." This is just a slice of a life for an Otaku and it's just how it is for me.

I work 10 hours a day in a Manga Shop from 11 am To 9.30 pm 6 days a week. Ny the time I've reach home, it's 11 pm and I go to bed by 12am. The hour between, I've use to catch up on some of anime I've downloaded while I'm away at work and check on what's on the net. I woke up at 7.30 and set off for work by 9.15.The time between is spent again on anime and checking on the net.

My off day for the week is spent on watching anime and going around town to check on mangas and figures to buy. 30% of my salary is spent on my Hobby,20% savings and 50% of daily expenses. I regret to say that I do not have much friends in my social circle nor I have a female compainion to confide my hobby with.But don't feel sad for me,I've accepted that my as it is and is quite happy how it turns out, for now.

If you cannot imagin living a life like mine, I suggest you give it up.

[Lord Raiden]

hehe. You put out some interesting arguments, but I don't nessisarily subscribe to those arguments. For one, yeah, by draconian copyright law if followed to the "T" (which not even the media giants follow copyright law to the letter, yet they expect US to? Yeah, right. IF anything they break more laws in a day than we would in a lifetime) then fansubs wouldn't even be a wet dream in the mind of some anime craving geek. But I don't have any heartburn with fansubs, so long as they're not fansubs of licenced anime. If they've recently played on TV, then what's the big hoopla about watching them for free if they were offered for free in the first place??

Now this isn't to say that it's ok to watch them but never buy the dvd's when they come out because that'd be wrong. I see anime as the equivalent to test driving a car. If you test drive a car and like it, you buy it, right? You don't go to the dealership and test drive a car, then keep it without paying for it, do you? (if you find some legal loophole to allow you to do this, you're a bloody genious) Then how is anime different? It's not really. Your "Test drive" is watching a fansub of a show. You try out a show, and if you like it, you buy it. Very simple. So in essence it's technically not illegal because it's a free test drive of a free show that results in a sale and money going to the anime companies.

Sure, you'll always have leaches who never pay for anything, but they're few and far between. Most anime fans pay do buy their anime on DVD at some point when it's available if they've enjoyed the show. If anything, fansubs have pushed up the total sales of anime dvd's since its inception by giving more exposure to various animes that otherwise would not be known about. Here's an example. Futakoi. If I hadn't stuck with the anime through its fansubbing and got to see all of the first 6 episodes, I wouldn't have become so hooked to it like I am now. If I had seen this anime in the stores and read the description and seen the pictures I probubly would have simply wrote it off and never bought it. As it is now, it's already found its way onto an ever lengthening "to buy" list of anime that I want to purchase on DVD once money is a little more plentiful around my house. (had to stop buying anime for the moment because I hit a bad slump and money is tight right now, so I can't afford any for the time being. That should change come february)

AS far as being time consuming, yeah, they are in a way. But I've relegated anime viewing to my "freetime" (what little there is of that) and when I just need to relax and do nothing. So some weeks I get lots of time to watch anime, other times I get almost none. It's all about managing your time effectively to get the most out of the anime you watch and the manga you read.

[dreamless]

I don't know about others, but personally fansubs definitely promoted anime DVD/VCD (yup we still only get VCDs here for a lot of the animes) for me at least. I'd never buy that many anime DVD/VCDs if not for those fansubs available online. I spend basically over half of my income on buying anime/manga/games, and I wouldn't even bother to take a look at a lot of them if I didn't have a chance of getting them online first... And almost all my anime DVD/VCD collections are unopened... Now I have a full cabinet of unopened anime DVD/VCDs... I think I'm crazy... but then maybe indeed I am... when I have watched a series I like, I just have the unstoppable urge to buy it. It may be different for others though...

[Ending]

So I was wondering if there is still any argument left as to why anyone should continue downloading anime.

Yes: it's entertainment, downloading is dependant only of your own ethics and bandwidth, and it's often the only way to aquire something that is not even available in your country due of some silly laws, regulations, or lack of distribution. Myself, especially after the recent actions of RIAA and MPAA, I try to support pirates rather than the bloated media-industry.

[Animizzle]

Well it's basically a question what Anime adds to your already rather busy life.

If you ask me if Anime adds anything to my life, I'll say No, not really. I like it, and I like it a lot. But if I look at in from a rational point of view it's nothing more then a way to spend my free time. 4 years ago I played Counter-strike many hours a week, and nowadays I spent hours a week watching Anime.

I would never ever waste my money on bying anime DVD's tho I am aware I'm not supporting the companys who create the anime's Im downloading on fansub.
While Microlith my drink my blood about this. I could care less. The internet is a wide source of Information and Media, and Im happy to use those recources whichever way I like. Certain people make these subs avaliable for me and Im downloading them. If they were to stop altogether, sure! no problem I'll find something else to do.

So ask yourself, is Anime really worth my time? Do I like it that much that I check the internet everyday or spend hunderds of dollars on DVD-boxes? Or are you more like myself for instance who enjoys something until something else comes along which arouses my interest more.

[Lost Souls]

Ive been into anime downloading for a short while, and i'll keep doing it. Before i started i had to take the risk of whether or not i was going to enjoy a show or not. Also where i live anime is damned hard to get a hold off. I usually end up paying around $70 a dvd and have to wait 6 weeks for it to get to me. So you can imagine how pissed i can get when i find i dont like what ive bought.

Fansubing gives me a chance to see the anime before i have to pay a fortune for it. For instance i was very much so into Samurai 7 and never missed and episode, so as soon as its released i'll be ordering it and quite happily giving away a large chunk of my hard earnt cash a dvd.

Is fansubbing immoral, yes it is, but so's getting drunk and smoking but people still do it. So are a lot of other things we do but we still do them. I dont feel guilty downloading anime, since if i like the anime and its licensed i know im going to buy it, where as if i dont like the show i'm not going to keep getting it. For example i stopped getting Fafner, Grenadier, Beet and a load of the other releases from this season, because i didnt like them.

Should Rozen Maiden, Melody of Oblivion, Final Approach and WWish be licensed i'd be one of the first to be buying them since they're shows i enjoy. Watching them first as a fansub gives me a chance to support the Anime industry as a whole, since im more likely to spend more. In fact i do spend more. I used to buy 3 or 4 dvd's a month originally, now im upto 6 to 10, since i know what im going for. I'm also mor likely to buy the more expensive delux or special editions now than i used to be, since they're shows i watched as a fansub amd loved.

I think your reading to much into the legality of fansubing, we all know its illegal, but until the companies ask fansubing to stop i dont see the problem. In truth i think fansubing helps spread anime more into the western world. For instance the companies the license anime over here can follow how well a fansubbed edition has been recieved and see if its worth licensing, thus bringing more anime to us.

I think the companies need to shape up a bit and get more releases out more quickly. If they did that there'd be less of people carrying on getting fansubbed versions after licensing. I mean it sucks having to wait upwards of a year to get a show you liked after its been licensed.

But if your that against fansubing, dont download them, simple as that.

[elniro]

I like to sample anime before i buy just in case its not what i like so i dont waste my money, but some anime that is really cheap and everyone likes it then i just buy it like princess mononoke.
It's always worthwhile downloading fansubs of shows that appeal to you, so you can watch anime and decide if you like it and when it comes out on DVD you can buy it.
I've just started buying anime dvds, but i intend to buy all the anime fansubs (that i liked) that i've seen over the years and ones that i borrowed off my friends

[OutPhase]

If you're guilty about downloading anime, there is always time to repent and change your ways. Come. Come join the good side and we shall buy all the anime that you've downloaded in the past and is now licensed. You shall b enlightened and no longer feel guilty for having anime when you purchase it.



The word has been spoken.

[indistinct]

I made a typo in the above post, this part was supposed to say:

Originally Posted by HolyOwl

more titles are licensed than not, and frankly, not seeing one or two titles out of ten is not a death sentence

Some important points were brought up. microlith, you are almost on the same page as me. When you acknowledge that fansubs are illegal and dead in a sense, doesn't that turn you away from watching them?

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

But I don't have any heartburn with fansubs, so long as they're not fansubs of licenced anime. If they've recently played on TV, then what's the big hoopla about watching them for free if they were offered for free in the first place??

When the Japanese audience watches anime on TV, they don't have the convinience that Americans have when they watch it fansubbed (I'll make believe that we're only talking about anime that is aired on public TV for free, not cable). They don't have the convinience of storing the show, watching it whenever at their own leisure, rewinding parts that they may have missed, editing out the commercials, reading lyrics for OP's, ED's, and songs played in the show. The American audience watching a fansub is certainly at an advantage in this instance, that itself is ironic when the shows we are discussing are not meant to be seen in North America at the moment.

And furthermore, one glimpse of the Amazon Japan front page, and I see a Gakuen Alice DVD for sale. If I were to do a more thorough search, I'm sure I'd find a good percentage of the shows that visitors of this site are downloading for sale. I don't think your argument(and I'm not pointing a finger at you personally, it's a common argument) holds up. These shows are copyrighted, if you and me are going to enjoy them, their creators deserve to be rewarded for the effort they have put into making them.

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

If anything, fansubs have pushed up the total sales of anime dvd's since its inception by giving more exposure to various animes that otherwise would not be known about. Here's an example. Futakoi. If I hadn't stuck with the anime through its fansubbing and got to see all of the first 6 episodes, I wouldn't have become so hooked to it like I am now. If I had seen this anime in the stores and read the description and seen the pictures I probubly would have simply wrote it off and never bought it. As it is now, it's already found its way onto an ever lengthening "to buy" list of anime that I want to purchase on DVD once money is a little more plentiful around my house.

I can't agree with this either, it's silly to say that North American companies are timid, when Amazon.com is already taking preorders for Koi Kaze, the underage incest anime. Fansubs may have helped the market get here, but it is already here, and the "promotion" argument is dying. For example, a consumer who purchases an Azumanga DVD (becauses he saw the fansubs or read good reviews) and enjoys it, that consumer now broadens his/her horizon when choosing anime. If School Rumble were to come out on DVD at this moment, he would probably purchase it, regardless if he saw it fansubbed or not.

But anyway, thanks for the replies, I hope I don't sound condescending. And again, sorry for the length.

[Ending]

Or dont. Save the money, stop supporting RIAA/MPAA/etc, and encourage companies to make real movies that are actually worth buying. As to feeling guilty: remember that only fraction, 4%, of the winnings end up to the artists themselves. So who is robbing who?

[indistinct]

Originally Posted by Wirhe

Save the money, stop supporting RIAA/MPAA/etc, and encourage companies to make real movies that are actually worth buying. As to feeling guilty: remember that only fraction, 4%, of the winnings end up to the artists themselves. So who is robbing who?

1. You don't even have to go that far, you can buy foreign and independent movies, and avoid the mainstream market. I have found foreign movies to be more enjoyable than anything Hollywood pumps out.

2. I feel bad for the artist, but he is not forced to sign a contract with the big companies. If the artist signs that contract, I have to assume he is acting according to his best judgement.

[zappater]

HolyOwl, a movie costs a fortune to make and the artist usually doesn't have that fortune, and the only way to get that movie made is often to sign that contract.
So practicaly, if they want their movie created, they are forced to sign that contract.

[indistinct]

I don't want to go offtopic by making this a discussion about filmmakers and selling out. Let's stick to anime. I know this may not be the best example, but consider Makoto Shinkai who made Voices of a Distant Star primarily without the aid of a big budget studio. I know that everytime his DVD sells in the US the money isn't directly deposited into his bank account, but when he signed the legal papers, I assume he considered his options and picked those that benefit him the most. In the context of our discussion, the choice is between robbing the middle man (the corporations) and the artist, or paying the middle man and the artist.

[ubb]

"So I was wondering if there is still any argument left as to why anyone should continue downloading anime."

Not really. I've seen too many people sample an anime by watching the entire series, so I'm not that inclined to agree that fansubs boost anime sales as a whole.

[microlith]

Myself, especially after the recent actions of RIAA and MPAA, I try to support pirates rather than the bloated media-industry.

So you will hand them their argument on a silver platter? If you don't like their actions then boycott them and encourage others to as well.

Note though that none of the major US anime companies are members of the RIAA.

I don't quite get Animizzle, but then I think it's more the transiency of attention I fail to understand as opposed to the rationalization.

Some important points were brought up. microlith, you are almost on the same page as me. When you acknowledge that fansubs are illegal and dead in a sense, doesn't that turn you away from watching them?

I generally don't watch fansubs anymore, the translations are too iffy for me in some cases such that I'd rather just watch them raw. In a way I understand a lot less but that's just more impetus for me to buy DVDs later (of course if I had my way I'd be in Japan like I was this time last year with a PC doing PVR stuff for me.) I also ignore a lot of shows. Most stuff out there is simply not worth my time raw, fansub, or DVD.

I buy as many DVDs of series that I possibly can and long ago I broke 200 discs. I buy as many as I can afford on my moderately limited budget. I encourage others to buy legit releases, and fully support the companies wishes for their works to not be fansubbed.

My issue is mainly the failure to maintain a sense of respect, something which is mostly gone from fansubbing that was present before.

[smurfinaus]

I guess it boils down to balance with anime and everything else in your life.
If people were just sampling anime "try before they buy" Why do subbing groups do an entire series?.I buy anime DVD's but probably nowhere as close as to just downloading them. There is no guarantee a particular series will be picked up and officially translated into english and made available in USA UK AUstralia etc at the end of the day so i do appreciate what sub groups are doing.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by microlith

My issue is mainly the failure to maintain a sense of respect, something which is mostly gone from fansubbing that was present before.

Yes, it's this seemingly-pervasive sense of entitlement that's troubling. I mean, since fansubbing is illegal, any "reasons" given will be nothing but excuses and rationalization - that is a given. But when we talk about "fansubbing ethics", it depends on certain foundational values, one of which is a respect for the creators and their right to sell their product. Certainly we don't deserve to be able to watch fansubs, but if our indulgence were balanced with a sense of respect and appreciation for the artists and the medium, things would not go out of control.

I'll be honest, I consider anime (and all forms of entertainment) to have a limited (as opposed to unlimited) value. This value is measured in dollars, but also in terms of time and effort on my part. So, it comes down to "how much is anime worth to me?" My answer is that it is worth the purchase price and shipping costs associated with getting R1 DVDs of the series I figure that I'd enjoy. But, to what lengths am I not willing to go? For example, I am not willing to purchase an R2 DVD - the hassles and costs associated with shipping and customs, along with the simple fact that I can't understand it (or use it in my normal DVD player), result in a clear value judgement on that issue - it's not worth it to me. I do not pretend that it makes downloading the fansubs any less illegal, but I can (and do) rationalize my behaviour. In other words, I don't feel wrong doing it, because I believe I am doing what can be reasonably expected of me by purchasing what is available in my area.

If rationalization is "a defense mechanism by which your true motivation is concealed by explaining your actions and feelings in a way that is not threatening" (WordNet 2.0), then what is the true motive? It can only be one thing: selfishness (or self-indulgence, as it was also put). We all want things that we don't deserve to have. But, while indulging one's selfishness can be troubling in and of itself (certainly for those of us who are religious), the consequences of unbridled selfishness are even more troubling, and affect us all.

So, are there any "good" arguments for fansubbing? No, and there never have been - it's always been rationalization from the start. But, I have no issues if people want to break this law - it's not up to me to enforce it. What is at issue are the base values upon which people rationalize their behaviour - whether there are any limitations (self-imposed or otherwise) on one's selfishness. Rationalization in blatant disregard for the realities of the world around us (such as, "I should be able to do whatever I want with no consequences whatsoever") is what is more troubling to me.

(I also apologize for the length... but anyone who knows me would probably have expected it )

[Ending]

So you will hand them their argument on a silver platter? If you don't like their actions then boycott them and encourage others to as well.

Boycott would not work in this case, as it would need large support and media-attention to make it even noticed by the humongous, international companies behind MPAA. You know that one-person-boycott is practically the same as fooling with your own devices and the only way for you to win is, how else?, by pirating. Perhaps it is a new way to boycott, no?