2012-05-12, 00:02 | Link #7481 |
Still Alive
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere far far away
Age: 31
|
Well the betrayal by the Black Knights was a direct consequence of the massacre of Japanese "ordered" by Euphie. I don't feel they had any other good enough reason to betray Lelouch.
__________________
|
2012-05-12, 19:28 | Link #7482 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
The Euphinator incident was pretty much the point where a totally happy ending became pretty much impossible. Any chance of everyone decent banding together to go against the really evil characters went up in smoke after that, though to be fair, the stakes ended up being a little more different than just Britannian tyranny vs the world. Which also was another bad point alot of people didn't like.
But there were other logical factors (that don't include Ougi venting his frustations about Viletta) for their betrayal, like Lelouch's arranging for the deaths of the JLF. As Toudou's former bosses he kind of has the right to be pissed about that, as he certainly didn't see them as inconviences to be disposed of like Lelouch did. And him ditching them in the Black Rebellion. No, going after his sister is not an acceptable reason in the eyes of the Black Knights as Nunnally means nothing to them. It would have been a glaringly selfish and unprofessional act, in their eyes. And the fact that he again risked them getting Fleiaed for Nunnally would piss them off further, because they would not accept being considered disposible in comparsion to a blind cripple who is an enemy to boot. And him recruiting Rolo and Jeremiah, and placing more trust and duties to them, while leaving the Black Knights more and more out of the loop. With the reveal of him being a Britannian Prince, and realizing that his primary targets were all rivals to the throne, it wouldn't be too out of place for them to believe that Lelouch was simply using them as tools for a power grab, and planned on disposing of them and jumping ship to Britannia to take the throne for himself. Hence him recruiting Britannian's more loyal to him than their cause. This would also ring some warning bells. Unfortunately none of this is brought up, and they basically just betray him because Ougi tells them to, combined with Lelouch not making any attempt to defend or justify himself, but just saying basically "Yep, I was fooling you all. Shoot me." Had they had more time, or put more effort, they could have set up the betrayal in a more logical way. |
2012-05-14, 18:00 | Link #7483 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Lelouch was an exiled Britannian prince, and therefore had every reason to hate Britannia after being left to fend for himself in Japan while they invaded and occupied it.
Not sure if he deliberately arranged all of the JLF deaths. Those kind of happened. Whether Katase could have been saved is debatable. And Ohgi for his part also committed similar actions below that with the secrecy. First, kept Villetta a secret and either disappeared or was out of commission on two different occasions because of that. The first time, when she regained her memories, she shot him because he let her guard down around him, which caused them to lose their hold on Ashford. Next, he nearly let himself get killed by her after he disappears from them in China. Not to mention that she is responsible for keeping watch over Lelouch during the year skip, which also accounts for the Knights being imprisoned and due for execution. So why is it that they get the initiative in putting up a case against Lelouch, when they'd set up some questions of their own to answer for, and Ohgi reassumes his leader post and gets Villetta onto the squad, not to mention the under the table deal for Japan that would have came at the expense of the UFN? The irony about Nunnally is that she's the one they recognize as empress at the end, not to mention that she's seen with both Ohgi and Nagisa. If ye only knew, you two. Lelouch didn't make any attempt to defend himself, because 1) they decided then and there he was too dangerous to convince otherwise, and 2) Schneizel put them up to it, and he could tell he had another nuke ready. All they heard was a selectively quoted recording, from which Suzaku himself noted Lelouch had just been lying so as to apologize. Last edited by azul120; 2012-05-14 at 21:43. |
2012-05-15, 06:40 | Link #7484 | ||||
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
Quote:
That said, it's a little academic, since I'm not sure how even Schneizel could have known about that. At the same time, he might have deduced it and then lain the possibility before Toudou and the others. Again, it's not about what can be proven, it's about what can be believed. Once Schneizel had shown that Lelouch was hiding things from the Black Knights, all he had to do was lay a plausible version of events before them to win the day. Quote:
Quote:
True, though in fairness they didn't know it was selectively quoted. At any rate, though, I think Aquaman's point was more, 'The betrayal could have been handled a lot more realistically just by filling in a few gaps,' rather than, 'The betrayal as is makes perfect sense.' If you see what I mean. As is, yeah, the Black Knights turned on Zero rather too quickly for anyone's liking, but if more time had been given to the entire incident, in particular giving Schneizel more time to build up his narrative against Lelouch, it does seem like they could have easily made it a lot more believable without really changing any of the facts going into it. |
||||
2012-05-15, 17:46 | Link #7485 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1) The Black Knights being too suspicious to hear out Lelouch because of his Geass 2) Schneizel basically declaring Screw the Rules, I Have A Nuke! I don't think giving anymore time would have significantly changed the scenario, sadly. Ergo, the scenario itself was the issue. Especially since the BKs were still against Schneizel before Ohgi and Villetta dropped in. Last edited by azul120; 2012-05-15 at 17:57. |
|||||
2012-05-16, 07:26 | Link #7486 | ||||
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2012-05-18, 13:43 | Link #7487 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
[QUOTE=Yamiken;4162784]Katase, as far as we know, had done nothing of the sort, though. If Lelouch were honestly abhorred by all of the JLF, he wouldn't have gone through such trouble to get Tohdoh to join the Black Knights. No, fan of Lelouch though I am, I can't view the Katase incident as anything but a deliberate manœuvre to eliminate potential rivals for his leadership of the anti-Britannian forces in Japan - though granted, he also saw much of the JLF's commanding echelons as deadwood the movement as a whole would be helped not hindered for eliminating.[QUOTE]
The members of the JLF who hijacked the hotel were nutjobs though. The rest of the JLF were nothing like them. Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-05-19, 15:25 | Link #7488 | |
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
If Lelouch were that convinced of Schneizel's intellectual superiority, he'd never have tried to take him on at all. I remain convinced that the speed at which Lelouch gave up is indicative of his mental state at the time. There's also the fact that he practically demanded that Rolo abandon him even after rescuing him - that to me says quite clearly that he hadn't merely consigned himself to his fate in the face of an impossible situation, but had actively given into despair. |
|
2012-05-19, 22:00 | Link #7489 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Even though he justifed giving up to himself by thinking there was not way out, when a way out presented itself, Lelouch suddenly didn't want it. The fact that he repeatedly demands Rolo just let him die, kind of speaks volumes about what he really wanted. It was only after Rolo killed himself saving him that he resolved to go on, because I guess he just couldn't find it in himself to waste that sacrifice. At least long enough to take down Charles. Suzaku and Marianne showing up complicated things further.
Had Lelouch truely believed Schnizel unbeatable he'd have never tried to take him on. And giving the Black Knights an explaination wouldn't have hurt anything. Even if they didn't accept it, he at least tried. And Tamaki at least seemed like he really wanted to still believe in him. Lying that he used them all though would have just guaranteed death, which he pretty much knew. |
2012-05-26, 08:46 | Link #7490 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
|
Well Lelouch lost Shirley, C.C. can't remember a thing, what happened to Nunnally, and Suzaku just nuked Japan. He had a lot on his plate, and than when they pointed their weapons at him there was nothing he could say to stop them. They were being lead by Ohgi after all and ever since he started banging the enemy he never trusted Zero again. You know even after Ohgi was shot by the wench, yet that's forgiveable yet Lelouch saving his rear multiple times in the past doesn't change that he might have used Geass on him apparently which is a death sentence.
Than to top it off Lelouch was forced to lie to Kallen because if he told her the truth she would have gladly stayed by his side when the shots were fired. They weren't being rational and after losing Shirley a while ago Lelouch wasn't about to lose Kallen as well, the other woman he loved. That and someone had to take care of the amnesic C.C. and no one else aboard that ship was trustworthy but Kallen. So yeah, he was dealing with a lot of stuff. It's understandable that after all that, and being betrayed by those ungrateful SOBs that owed him everything, really killed his will to live. Rolo's death reminded him that things weren't over, and he still must take responsibility for going this far, and that if he just died than than Schnizel and Charles won and all of Nunnally's pain and suffering was all for nothing. The worst part is that the incompetent and traitorous Ohgi actually got a happy ending, he gets married and becomes the head guy for Japan pretty much. While Kallen and Lelouch had all chances of a happy ending removed because of Ohgi's actions. |
2012-05-26, 09:29 | Link #7491 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
You get peace not by punishing everyone, but by knowing when to let it go. Yes, it was hard for all of us to watch him walk away with everything he didn't earn, but sometimes one has to decide if peace is what they truly wished, or vengeance. No, it isn't fair. But few things in Code Geass are fair.
__________________
|
|
2012-05-26, 09:47 | Link #7492 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
|
Still doesn't change that it's BS that Ohgi was allowed happiness in the end. I really wished he died at the end of R1, at least that way he could have provided character development for Kallen instead of ruining her life and leading the man she loves to basically commit suicide while she's forced to watch.
|
2012-05-27, 05:46 | Link #7493 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
Peace or vengeance, you only get to choose one.
__________________
|
|
2012-05-27, 21:32 | Link #7495 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Heck, that's my personal fic idea: have Ohgi resign from politics permanently under threat of a forged scandal, put Cornelia under house arrest (she's Nunnally's half-sister; not sure if the latter would want any worse), and have Villetta be Zerozaku's servant wench. Their baby? Adopted by Kallen, with the records altered to he/she being the child of Kallen and Lelouch, conceived before "Lelouch Lamperouge" died in the Mt. Fuji blast. Justice is served, and peace hasn't been lost. |
|
2012-05-28, 00:53 | Link #7496 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
|
Quote:
Glad that in Code Geass's first showing in Super Robot Wars they made it so if you did everything right you can talk Ohgi out of being an idiot and tell him it's either sticking with Zero or get off the ship. Even Kallen *****s out Ohgi when he has to choose to either betray Zero or give him a chance to explain. Kallen than refers to Zero as Lelouch who takes his mask off and explains everything with Tamaki saying "I knew it, see! I told you guys that Zero always had the heart in the right place, didn't I tell you that he's my best buddy?" and Lelouch getting shocked at Tamaki being the most loyal of the BKs next to Kallen. |
|
2012-05-28, 01:00 | Link #7498 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
|
Quote:
So I guess Ohgi just lucked out because he got to survive to see the end and his relationship wasn't too controversal with the fanbase. |
|
2012-05-28, 01:18 | Link #7499 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Quote:
No, Lelouch x Kallen would not have done that since they both viewed Britannia in the same way. Gino x Kallen would have worked very well, I don't care what the Kalulu fanatics think about that pairing, Okouchi would have been wise to solidify it. Pity he didn't.
__________________
|
|
2012-05-28, 01:24 | Link #7500 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
|
Quote:
Glad he wasn't wise than since that would have been extremely rushed and underdeveloped since he didn't join until CG was almost over, til that point he happily fought to kill Kallen in battle. Even than he didn't willingly join until Lelouch took the throne while Kallen willingly fought since she was a child. The best could have been done regarding that was him settling on having Gino act as Kallen's rival which is still fierce even in the ending Drama CD that takes place after R2. As for the Drama CD, guess they really wanted to let fans know that yes Lelouch is dead and to move on just like Kallen decided to move on. But than they had to appease angry fans and make the Miraculous Birthday and have Kallen regress to "I can't forget you now" phase. They really don't want her to be happy without Lelouch, huh? |
|
|
|