2012-06-04, 20:59 | Link #1363 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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I started playing in Tenhou a few weeks ago and I'm loving it! I had only played 1 player mahjong games against bots (like Saikyou Mahjong 3D and such) and God the difference is huge a few days ago I scored my first sanbaiman and I was very happy I'm still a beginer but i'm having so much fun
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2012-06-05, 00:30 | Link #1364 | |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Quote:
=== Here's a funny question for you: Do you "ron" here? My answer was: I did not.
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Last edited by Kyuu; 2012-06-06 at 16:40. |
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2012-06-07, 00:23 | Link #1365 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I'm still on the learning process~
I want to get better at reading other player hand from their discard. i.e. what hand are they going for, which tiles they are waiting, what tile they are likey to discard (Is aiming to ron off specific tile from specific player like in Saki easy to do?) Is there any tip or article about this I can can read??? As For myself right now, - it seems I can only win with a hand worth 1,000 ~ 12,000. (Mostly low value hand) - If 1st has 15,000+ or more score above me, I find it's very hard to win that match. - I like my hand to be closed - I have a bad habid to call Richii whenever I can :P (need to change this soon....) - I rely to win with tsumo more than Ron. (This is bad, right?) Seriously, I still have hard time to win againist AI. It will take a while before I have enough confident to play with human.
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2012-06-07, 01:17 | Link #1366 | |||
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Quote:
It's not easy at all. There are certain times you can get a feel on what range of tiles your opponents may be waiting for, but for the most part, people defend by reading what tiles other players are NOT waiting for, rather than trying to guess what they are waiting for. Basically, use the furiten rule. You will not deal into someone if you discard a tile they discarded before, and if that person declared riichi, every single tile that have been played afterwards are also safe. Quote:
http://riichiblog.blogspot.ca/ There are some links to very good tutorial for beginners here. |
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2012-06-07, 02:11 | Link #1367 | ||
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Quote:
After that 8-sou... 1. Player across pon's it. 2. Player to the left drops a 5-sou (can't ron due to temp furiten) 3. I draw, and discard (wish I riichi at this point) 4. Player to the right (don't care) 5. Player across drops a 5-sou (and I ron here) Thing is. Player across me nailed me for a 4 han 30 fu hand. I ended up scoring the same with this one. Add riichi, ippatsu, that'd be a haneman. Just gotta time these riichi's better. Once a couple of the 5-sou and 8-sou were popping out, then that's when my signal for riichi starts to kick in. Quote:
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2012-06-07, 02:43 | Link #1368 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Quote:
what is Live Tile? i'm such a noob, sorry |
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2012-06-07, 03:01 | Link #1369 | |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Quote:
As for the hand: I had 1-yaku (pinfu). The amount would have been ridiculously cheap at that point. But you're right. I wanted that sanshoku, not all that often I get it while closed.
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2012-06-07, 03:53 | Link #1370 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Quote:
*facepalm* I always forget pinfu! |
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2012-06-07, 08:36 | Link #1371 |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Pinfu dora 1 = riichi right away is the basic of basics, according to Puyo, and that's how I learned to roll I really like the fact that once you declare riichi, you cause all opponents to start playing defensively, which definitely gives you an advantage. The difference between takame and yasume have to be at least by a difference of 6 (difference between 2000 and haneman, for example) before I'd consider damaten and waiting for takame only.
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2012-06-07, 09:00 | Link #1372 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Quote:
For defense, this article helped me a lot (though suji seems very situational): http://www.osamuko.com/umaikeiki-def...aori-and-suji/ This one is was also helpful for defending against toitoi and yakuhai hands (the really long comment at the end was particularly helpful): http://www.osamuko.com/yaku-defense-...i-and-yakuhai/
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2012-06-07, 13:39 | Link #1373 | |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Quote:
In a sense, y'treat the different ways of play as "weapons". In b4 Saki-verse. It's all a matter on how y'use these weapons, and when.
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2012-06-07, 15:13 | Link #1374 | |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
(On that hand though, whatever I was thinking at that time - probably not something regarding the hand - I just followed my instinct of "oooh shiny button must click", and then clicked on autoron. What do you know - 4th place dealt into me a few turns after. And then I got 3 uradora and got 1st place anyways - which for some reason pissed me off even more than if I just hit for 1500 and stay at 3rd. I don't think I'll make that kind of absentminded decisions in a while ) Those kinds of situations are pretty exceptional though. Generally unless it's all last and I REALLY need to target someone to improve my placement, or it's near all last and I only need a small amount of points (leading and wants the game over fast, very small difference with nearby players like South 4 of your game - damaten is the best move there, its better to just riichi right away. The chance of winning a good shape Riichi is about the same as the chance of winning a bad shape damaten (since you're going to let 8s pass, it essentially become bad shape), but the expected value of Riichi, after accounting for Ipptasu and Uradora(s), is around same or higher. Adding in that there's less of a chance that someone else wins the hand afterwards, and declaring Riichi comes out as a good deal more profitable than staying silent and waiting for 8s. Well, taking a look at your table, I can see that if you want to keep the possibility of getting top in mind, you may want to silent tenpai since you don't want 4th place to deal into your takame (8000 minimum 12000 maximum, 100% 2nd place game over). But then you can still let it pass and hope for tsumo, I guess. EDIT: I took a look at the game log, and found that your hand was 68m 123567p 22467s tsumo 7m. In this case, I'd have definitely declared Riichi here straight away. There's not TOO much danger of blowing away 4th place with this hand, but it's still decently large and can make an impact no matter how you win it, especially since it's only East 4. |
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2012-06-07, 16:24 | Link #1375 |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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If there's one thing I am looking to figure out: balancing damaten play and riichi play. The disadvantage of riichi becomes damaten's strength. Likewise, vice-versa. So until this discussion, I never viewed the two under these terms.
Utilizing damaten has been my response to lower win rates via riichi, as defense play increases among higher level players. This is what I am sensing in both Live Tile play and in 7447. So, my focus here turned to: "How do I make defense play crack?" === Here's a case where damaten allowed me to win: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012052611g...ca0&tw=1&ts=10 I have a feeling: Player C was defending against Player A. With the pinfu in this hand. Getting 6-man or 9-man made no difference on the hand value. Once again, I delayed any call for riichi by 1-full turn. After that kan, I was tempted to riichi right afterwards, but I chose to remain silent. I was lucky to draw the red 5-sou. Plus, with the hand already late, it was better off to remain silent in this case. Last thing I wanted: for anyone to play defensively against me.
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2012-06-07, 18:16 | Link #1377 |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Statistics show that in general, the winning rate of Riichi is about 60% of that of damaten's. However, unless the hand is already worth a lot, Riichi can generally triple the hand's potential (about 15-20% chance of Ippatsu, 0.3 uradoras). Declaring Riichi is more favorable even if ends up suceeding less.
Puyo's tutorial, on the topic of when one is first to reach tenpai with a good-shaped (ie, 2+ side waits that aren't 2 sided shanpon with two middle tiles), concludes that "In general, unless the circumstance is very exceptional, declare riichi right away when first to reach tenpai with good-shaped waits." Exceptional circumstances he notes as when "1) when the hand is worth haneman+ even without Riichi, such as Chin'itsu, or 2) when all last leading and do not need points, and that's basically it." |
2012-06-07, 21:54 | Link #1378 | |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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[2012/06/08/般南喰赤]
A:marvins(+48.0) B:emaNON(+6.0) C:KyuuAA(-39.0) D:v(´・ω・`)(-15.0) http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012060810g...-a25e300c&tw=2 Called "riichi" 7-times this game, and only scored on one of 'em. The case of West 1-0. This one was better off being held. But at the same time, the pair of wests denied me a yaku. Last hand. Chose to riichi dropping the 4-man to lure out 7-man. But alas, it was a death tile. East 4 was hilarious though. === So, essentially, that was 6000 points down the drain. Though, they were not called immediately. Sometimes, just a delay of 1-turn. Anyways. My mood demanded to try riichi more often, and earlier. So, I did, and paid dearly for it. At the same time, even had I resorted to greater use of damaten here. The result would have been similar. Quote:
Yet, leave it to me, to use one instance to prove a point. XD
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Last edited by Kyuu; 2012-06-07 at 23:33. |
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2012-06-08, 17:09 | Link #1379 |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Generally speaking, I only damaten if either I have a bad shape wait, the wait is easily improvable and either the hand is worth a lot to begin with (thus reducing the effect of Riichi) or worth very little (thus... also reducing the effect of Riichi), the hand is already haneman minimum (which I never encountered yet, other than a couple of instances of san'ankou + two pairs hand, which I want to riichi anyways to improve the chance of getting suu'ankou), or if the score situation calls for it.
I think that in lower level tables, it's probably also acceptable if someone riichi's, you reach tenpai and your wait is one of the riichi player's discards, since this is a form of lure as well. This is strictly for lower table however; on tokujou people will notice that "this guy is discarding a lot of dangerous tiles for no reason, so he must be in tenpai" and guard you anyways. I'm aiming for tokujou (and I do think I have the skill needed to reach it, since I had a previous account that almost hit 4-dan but had a crappy R due to me playing like crap for about 50 games before encountering Puyo's tutorial), so I don't want to get in that habit. It's something to consider though I guess =P Double post: I've been wondering for a while, but are there any English speaking 7th dan or above? Last edited by RegalStar; 2012-06-08 at 17:23. |
2012-06-09, 04:49 | Link #1380 | ||
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Ranking is not relevant in this discussion. Besides, if I were to become self-conscious of ranking, I'll end up quitting after a demotion. Only to return once again.
This pattern is true in Starcraft, which I gave up on for a couple months. Getting demoted there sucked. Just recently, I decide to play it again. And I haven't even started doing 1v1's there yet. Tenhou ranking is not in my interest right now, as I am too cheap to pay into it. I might do it in Ron2 instead, when I get around to it. Unfortunately, games there are East only, for all I know, when it comes to using the site for free. In the meantime, I just play and post my games, which I find interesting. This is how I have been doing so for 2 years. === Now. As to why I use damaten. I developed a fairly good taste for it lately. It's what my mood dictates. Most of my game decisions revolves around this mood. So, if my mood is outright cruddy, then I'm screwed. And unfortunately, I'm going through somewhat of a slump in that department these past couple days. So, if you want to kick me when I'm down, now is a good time to do it. In any case. I am focusing on two things regarding my play right now: A) Minimizing losing by Ron B) Hitting players by Ron, though manipulation of discards Again. I hate losing to Ron, but I love winning by Ron. So, I center my game around that due to the psychological effect of Ron. For now, Tsumo is not a weapon for me. I just treat it as something that "happens". Anyways. I enjoy being "sneaky", regardless of the odds. The sneakier, the better. Nevertheless, yes. I acknowledge the need of assessing the situation when it comes to choosing a particular tactic. Yet, often times, my mood plays a large factor towards decision making, which may lead to some great decisions or outright catastrophic ones. As y'note here: Quote:
Quote:
=== Finally. I have a bigger objective than my own gameplay with regards to this game. My ultimate goal is to spread this game, particularly in America.
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mahjong |
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