Hyouka - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Peanutbutter]

I liked the quality of the movie. I dun think many studios will be able to do that.

Plus the VA cast for this episode. Wow.

From my extensive reading of the Young Kindaichi manga (which is not much), the suspect is either the most unlikely one or there is more than 1 murderer.

Say, does the cameraman have a role?

My guess of the culprits:

Spoiler:

Tadakuni and Kyou.

[Flawfinder]

This series is definitely KyoAni's version of Bakemonogatari. It's repetitive, has great visuals, and I'm still on for the ride because it has something that keeps me coming back. Okay, it has a bunch of differences, but for the most part, that's what I see this series as.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Cipher

...or through the window, after locking the door, then closing the window from outside and feigning innocence by entering the house through another room's window.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

However the grass is undisturbed. The only possibility through the window would be to climb up to the second floor window.

As soon as the fellow opened the window, and before he even looked out, I had a flash back to an episode of an early Sherlock Holmes TV series, also involving a "locked room" mystery, where, right outside the window, there was a large spider's web proving that the culprit could not have climbed out of the window to escape. I suddenly expected to see a large spider's web outside this animated window, as well.

One thing does puzzle me about that room. If all of the panes are present in the only window in the room, as they clearly were, where does that broken window glass come from that's on the floor?

Also, could it not be that the fellow who stuck his hand in the blood did so on purpose to disguise the fact that his hand already had blood on it? Who would walk into a room, see someone lying in a pool of blood, kneel down, and stick their hand in that blood? After all, the culprit must have gotten some blood on their person or clothes, unless they also put on a mask, raincoat, and gloves before doing the deed. Granted, severing a limb postmortem (if that's the case here) would not result in a spew of blood, but you would expect some blood to splash around, leaving some evidence on someone.

[ookamigirl]

Interesting how they have club activities even during summer break.
Helping another club by participating in a movie screening.
They did an evaluation, nothing special there except that the short movie was actually kinda interesting.
Looks like this was just the first part of the whole story.

[Dop]

As student movies go, this had nothing on The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina, and I have to agree with Guardian Enzo that this had to have been written when The Blair Witch project was popular.

[Kanon]

Now that's more like my kind of mysteries. Unfortunately, I didn't notice any real conclusive evidence pointing out to one culprit. The one who seems the most suspicious is the girl voiced by Chinori Mihara but I'm not positive that's her.

I love how terrible the actors were, and how amateurish the whole movie was. Kyoni did a good job depicting this.

The other possibly more important mystery is why they don't just ask the girl who wrote the script who the killer is (it's not like she's dead). I'm surprised Houtarou didn't raise the issue. I'm tempted to think she never wrote the script with a particular culprit in mind, but I'll trust in Irisu's words for now.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Dop

As student movies go, this had nothing on The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina, and I have to agree with Guardian Enzo that this had to have been written when The Blair Witch project was popular.

Your first point is debatable, but, as I stated in my first post regarding the Blair Witch Project, this movie seems to have been the inspiration for someone in Class 2-F, which makes perfectly plausible sense as the movie came out in 1999 and the Hyouka novels began publishing in 2001, not long after the movie. Or, perhaps, the inspiration was Blair Witch Project 2, the sequel from 2000. Or, perhaps, someone even played the video game, Blair Witch Volume 3: The Elly Kedward Tale. Or, as dreadful as it is to contemplate, they were influenced by all 3.

Originally Posted by Kanon

The other possibly more important mystery is why they don't just ask the girl who wrote the script who the killer is (it's not like she's dead). I'm surprised Houtarou didn't raise the issue. I'm tempted to think she never wrote the script with a particular culprit in mind, but I'll trust in Irisu's words for now.

As I expressed in my very first post about this episode, that "mystery" was also my biggest problem with the episode, the second being why didn't Houtarou ask Isrisu this same question?

I wouldn't put much faith in the truthfulness of Irisu's statements. See my post here, which includes the original post from kari-no-sugata who offered a very plausible explanation as to why they didn't ask the writer who the killer is.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by Cipher

She also said to herself "I have a bad feeling about this" before entering the house, which wouldn't make sense if she were the culprit. Unless, by "bad feeling", she was referring to possible obstacles against her crime, which, however, would be too "out of the topic" for this sort of puzzle.

Clues are too limited, especially with crime method and the severed hand, but I guess I'll go with Jirou Sugimura, and how we see him inside some room(?) while responding to his companions' call. He was also the guy who set the region for their research.

The scriptwriter is supposedly well versed in mystery so inviting the Classics Club to create a more sound mystery (by solving the crime) for them seems a bit off. The no-mention of inquiring the scriptwriter is odd yeah.

Except that could have been said to throw off the rest of the group. She could be trying to create an impression on the group before carrying out the crime; if one of the members had said "I have a bad feeling about this", I sure wouldn't suspect them first. Note how she was the last one to enter, which when combined with that phrase, could give the impression that she was a little hesitant to enter. Can't really explain it, but I feel this wouldn't have been an issue.

The one thing that's throwing me off the scent is the mere thought that it'd be too simple if it was the quiet girl. How cliche, how simple; it feels like there could be a more complex scheme involved. However, I do remember that it's an amateurish production, so who knows.

Still think that trapdoor is involved somehow. It's even one of the bloody commandments, after all.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Peanutbutter

I liked the quality of the movie. I dun think many studios will be able to do that. Plus the VA cast for this episode. Wow.

Yes, the movie was terrible but not bad. It just walked the edge. They assembled a starry cast...and then had them all act poorly, in excellent ways. Quite an art.

Kudos also to great sound director Tsuruoka Yota, who does pretty well all KyoAni and Shaft shows, including Suzumiya Haruhi and Bakemonogatari. As I understand it, the sound director often directs the actors, helping decide what kind of voice they will use.

This and the very different Acchi Kocchi are both shows that have no right to be as entertaining as they are. There is so little there, and yet so much.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Sugarless Ocean

Anyone know the meaning of the tarot cards mentioned in the episode? I looked up Fool but tl;dr the entire story. Basically it means new beginnings and naivety? I guess that fits Chitanda.

Here are quick hits of what each card means (from Wikipedia, mainly). I think the associations are well thought-out:

The Fool (Chitanda) -- optimistic and daring, oblivious to danger, with a childlike ability to tune in to the workings of the world, natural wisdom.

Justice (Mayaka) -- rational, realistic, cold.
Judgment (what Satoshi wanted Mayaka to be) -- rebirth, forgiveness, reconciliation.

The Magician (Satoshi) -- practical, confident, creative

Strength (Oreki) -- solid, patient, disciplined, gentle, compassionate, slow, persevering, strong.

Spoiler for detailed info on the cards:

Justice (Mayaka) -- the goddess Athena sitting in judgment:
Impartiality — Distance — Coldness — Justice
Objective mind — Criticism — Being clever — Insensitivity
Decision — Intellect — Analysis — Realism — Severity
Responsibility — Rationality — Clear vision — Logic and reason

Judgment (what Satoshi wanted Mayaka to be) -- the saved rising from their graves at the last judgment:
Judgment — Rebirth — Inner Calling — Absolution
Restart — Accepting past mistakes/actions — Release
Forgiveness — End of repression — Reconciliation — Renewal
Decision — Salvation — New beginning — Hope — edemption

The Magician (Satoshi) -- the god Apollo, with the ourobouros snake (eternity) and a magic wand pointing to heaven and his hand pointing to Earth, symbolizing connecting heaven and earth.
Action — Consciousness — Concentration — Personal power
Practicality — Energy — Creativity — Movement
Precision — Conviction — Manipulation — Self confidence
Being objective — Focusing — Determination — Initiative

The Fool (Chitanda) -- a carefree travelling youth striding happily forward toward the brink of a precipice, with a little dog beside him. The Fool is the spirit in search of experience. He represents the mystical cleverness bereft of reason within us, the childlike ability to tune into the inner workings of the world. The sun shining behind him represents the divine nature of the Fool's wisdom and exuberance, holy madness or 'crazy wisdom'. On his back are all the possessions he might need. In his hand there is a flower, showing his appreciation of beauty. He is frequently accompanied by a dog, sometimes seen as his animal desires, sometimes as the call of the "real world", nipping at his heels and distracting him. He is seemingly unconcerned that he is standing on a precipice, apparently about to step off.

strength (Oreki) -- The key characters are that of a woman and a lion, with the woman looking calm and gentle, yet dominant over the lion.
Self-control – Being solid – Patience – Compassion
Composure – Stability – Perseverance – Moderation
Kindness – Gentleness – Slowness – Softness
Serenity – Comprehension – Discipline – Inner strength

[j4c06]

By the way, if you look at the floor plan, the room at the end of the right hallway connects both to some centrally located room (via trapdoor) and to the room at the end of the left hallway (via some kind of passage which appears blocked in the last frames of the movie, plus that room must also have a similar trapdoor).

[Somnus]

Not much to say about this episode, since it was good fun as always. That video was downright hilarious, and perfect in its own little way. Was great seeing the group comment similarly afterwards.

I too look forward to our lovely Eru's "Ki Ni Narimasu!" every episode now. Feels like something is wrong with the world if there's a week without hearing it!

I'd love to see a moment where Oreki finally says, "You know, one day that's not going to work on me" which would be the moment Eru would have to up her game and close that already incredibly small distance between them to convince him.

Also, pure laughs at Oreki going back inside cause it's hot. I love this man. It was made even better when Eru showed up at the door seconds later.

[Ray]

Mhm, Irisu is my type of gal. I hope this arc won't be the last we see of her.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I have to agree that the biggest question was why they didn't just ask the author who the culprit is. I get that she is sick and can't write the rest of the script herself, but should already know who she has decided is the culprit. Since she isn't dead we are lacking reasons why she wouldn't be able to resolve this.

Instead had Chitanda be used to rope Houtarou into this. Of course Houtarou did his best to stay out of this since there wasn't much reason for him to put the work into solving this. Unfortunately the secret weapon was pulled out and thus Houtarou must solve it.

It's tough to call who is the culprit if only because the actors were terrible. Hard to see any of the oddballs in that film being the killer.

The real problem is the sneaking suspicion that the story isn't that good - that means it could be anyone.

Of course if I'd have to guess right now it's between Jirou and Yuri. Someone had to take the master key to lock the dead guy in the room and those two knew there was a master key unlike the others who just waited until keys were brought too them.

Or maybe they overheard. Or maybe the culprit knew beforehand because he or she explored the mansion before coming back with all the others, which allowed him or her to make doubles of the keys, prepare whatever he or she needed for the murder, and so on.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It probably wouldn't be a bad guess to say that Blair Witch Project was huge around the time this appeared in the novel.

Eh. There are probably blair witches being filmed today. If you're going to have shaky camera work (because you're an amateur), you might as well claim it was on purpose.



At least two rules were broken:
- No Chinaman must figure in the story: ok, they're all Japanese, but I don't think people who say "Chinaman" make the distinction.
- The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader: the body was right here, but we don't know if there were any other wound or mark besides the severed hand. The trap doors are another problem. Do they open? Because if so they look so big it's not a locked room anymore.

The first isn't a problem, but the second... :\

If the trapdoors were smaller and openable, I'd say the murderer took the arm and key, locked the door, and threw them back into the room via the trapdoors.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

- No Chinaman must figure in the story: ok, they're all Japanese, but I don't think people who say "Chinaman" make the distinction.

I always assumed that "Chinaman" didn't literally mean a Chinese person, but rather a certain trope in storytelling. Something like this: Tropes to Avoid 1: The Magical Foreigner.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Of course if I'd have to guess right now it's between Jirou and Yuri. Someone had to take the master key to lock the dead guy in the room and those two knew there was a master key unlike the others who just waited until keys were brought too them. Though they might have just killed him because he's really loud .

Three people in the story knew there was a master key. That's why I really think it might be Mamiko. She didn't go with Jirou and Yuri to get the keys, but she knew the key was there.

[Anh_Minh]

Well spotted. But I don't really like to focus on who knew there was a master key, because anyone could know. The other guys could have overheard the conversation. Doubly so if the murder was premeditated (and if it wasn't, what did they cut the arm with?)

[U<3Anime]

The opening scene already had me chuckling. Seeing Eru being an computer illiterate and struggling to type out her sentences properly was adorable. Also, did she say she brought chocolate as snacks? Uh oh, Chi-chan, I hope you packed it with some ice atleast because I don't any chocolate is going to survive under that scorching heat.

[j4c06]

Does the culprit really have to be just one person? It might have been a joint effort, especially since the unlucky guy was big, strong and all.

The purpose of cutting the arm off is rather unclear though, don't you think?

[Triple_R]

Very enjoyable episode. There's something powerfully pleasant and really relaxing about this show. A lot of that is that it's atmospherically awesome, truly immersive. As other people pointed out, I loved how the student movie was hilariously overacted and with hilariously bad production values.

As for the mystery of the movie, and the mystery behind that mystery:

1. For the murder mystery, I think Yuri is the one who did it. She's the one who literally pointed to the mansion as a good place for the group to go to, and she seemed to know an awful lot about that mansion (she's the one who found the floor-plan, pointed out the master key, and kind of took charge once they entered the mansion). A murder like this is probably premeditated, and if so, I can see definite hints of Yuri having made a great setup here for committing the murder.

Also, when everybody splits to go to different rooms, Yuri and the victim go to one side of the mansion (Yuri on the upper level, the victim on the lower level) while everybody else goes to the other side of the mansion.

When everybody returns, Yuri is the first to return, which is smart of her if she's the killer. Yuri is also the one that displays the least emotion over the sight of the victim's dead body (granted, Yuri appears pretty unemotional in general, but I don't think many actual human beings would be that unemotional at seeing the shockingly dead body of a classmate).

Finally, Yuri was the only one who didn't say anything during the introductions. That's a bit suspicious...

So, yeah, I definitely think it's Yuri. My second guess would be Mamiko, largely because she did once race off to get the master key with Yuri, and she seemed to be going out of her way to overact to the victim's death (even by this student film's standards ), which could be an attempt to mask her guilt if she's the murderer.


2. As for "Why get Oreki involved at all? Is the writer so sick she can't even say who committed the murder?!". I have two theories here (and they may go together).

A) Chitanda and Irisu are friends. Chitanda loves getting Oreki to solve mysteries. ...Maybe Chitanda put Irisu up to this just to get some thrills watching Oreki's Detective Mind at work. What I like about this theory - It means that Chitanda is heavily into Oreki (even more than many of us may have thought), and it also means her apparent airheadedness might be a bit of a facade, and a scheming mind lies beneath dem glorious and seemingly innocent eyes. I'll call this The "Yui Hirasawa" Theory.

B) The female student that led the Classics Club to meet with the three Detectives seemed a bit pissed, or upset. That female student clearly likes the movie's script-writer, and seemed to even be a bit defensive about her. Here's an idea: Maybe the movie script-writer wrote herself into a corner, and she doesn't know how to get out of it. Her friend is ashamed about this, and so is defensive over her friend's plight and pride. In any event, Oreki is called in due to the script-writer's epic writer's block, lol. I'll call this The "Aquarion EVOL" Theory.

It's possible that both theories could be at least partially correct, of course. I hope it's one or the other or both (or something I haven't thought of), and not just a plot hole.


Anyway, I'd love to know what my fellow Hyouka fans think of my ideas here.


This episode itself was a real joy to watch. 9/10

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

One thing does puzzle me about that room. If all of the panes are present in the only window in the room, as they clearly were, where does that broken window glass come from that's on the floor?

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Still think that trapdoor is involved somehow. It's even one of the bloody commandments, after all.

Originally Posted by j4c06

By the way, if you look at the floor plan, the room at the end of the right hallway connects both to some centrally located room (via trapdoor) and to the room at the end of the left hallway (via some kind of passage which appears blocked in the last frames of the movie, plus that room must also have a similar trapdoor).

Perhaps you can connect these.

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Also, could it not be that the fellow who stuck his hand in the blood did so on purpose to disguise the fact that his hand already had blood on it? Who would walk into a room, see someone lying in a pool of blood, kneel down, and stick their hand in that blood? After all, the culprit must have gotten some blood on their person or clothes, unless they also put on a mask, raincoat, and gloves before doing the deed. Granted, severing a limb postmortem (if that's the case here) would not result in a spew of blood, but you would expect some blood to splash around, leaving some evidence on someone.

I think your looking at this far too much as a real scenario as opposed to it being within the context of a low-quality school film. They could have showed the blood on his hand just to make things explicit for the audience.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Except that could have been said to throw off the rest of the group.

Like Fredfriendly, in the context of this show and the film, that seems a bit eh... overcomplicated. It's all possible, of course.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2.
A) Chitanda and Irisu are friends. Chitanda loves getting Oreki to solve mysteries. ...Maybe Chitanda put Irisu up to this just to get some thrills watching Oreki's Detective Mind at work. What I like about this theory - It means that Chitanda is heavily into Oreki (even more than many of us may have thought), and it also means her apparent airheadedness style might be a bit of a facade and a scheming mind lies beneath dem glorious and seemingly innocent eyes. I'll call this the "Yui Hirasawa" theory.

The first scene with the internet chatting shows Irisu inviting "L"(Eru) and the rest of the Classics club, and before that it showed the issues between the scriptwriter and Irisu and Irisu seeking advice from a senpai(which, probably someone got right(Oreki's sister).) I think Kari-no-sugata's explanation is the most in coherence with the data right now.