2013-01-13, 00:38 | Link #181 |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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I see that quite a portion of the latest posts are moved to its own thread.
So...to make this thread go back to its intended topic, I think I’ll ask this: What do you think of the Aoi Tohsaka’s bouncing boobs when Kariya Matou was choking her in the church (in Fate/Zero)? Does that one fits “sexual fanservice in a serious action scene”? (The "action" here being the attempted murder (is that what it’s called?) by Kariya). If it is, then what do you think about it?
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2013-01-13, 00:56 | Link #183 | |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Speaking of it, did you actually know the scene that I'm talking about? I may have to add that I'm asking for those who have seen that scene personally, not just relying on my description.
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2013-01-13, 02:29 | Link #184 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2012
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2013-01-13, 04:36 | Link #187 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Seriously though. I once argued in a Madoka thread that in order to enjoy something, sometimes that requires ignoring the blatantly obvious issues with how things are presented. In other words, sometimes suspension of disbelief means accepting that it is stupid and going along with it anyway. Now don't get me wrong, I find that fanservice in general has approached some nuclear levels of stupid over the last few years. No, breasts that large are not sexy, nor are they even remotely comfortable for women. Most women never wear clothing that revealing in the situations they are portrayed in, nor do the winds happen to blow so perfectly that panty shots are inevitable. And I hate to break it to the average lolicon, but very few small framed females have those kind of curves - minus the washboard chest, of course. But in the world of fantasy, this is what people want to indulge in. People buy the uncensored blue ray so the god rays can show you the nipples of your favorite characters. You know, the nipples every mammal on the planet has. Ass and crotch shots get lingering and oddly specific camera angles because clearly whatever else is happening on the screen just isn't engaging enough. And above all, just like every woman apparently swoons over tall dark and bishounen, every male seems to think breasts are either A or triple E and can perform feats that defy the laws of physics. Because its fantasy. To put it another way, this is kind of like watching a live action movie with a famous actor. Your mind says "Hey, this is Will Smith, idiot" and yet you are buying the bullshit that for two hours it's not Will Smith, but Agent J from Men in Black. Or you don't buy it, you see Will Smith no matter what. Or you do buy it, and suddenly Shatner no longer exists, you only see Kirk, and he flips out at conventions so famously that someone makes the movie Galaxy Quest. Everyone has different levels of bullshit detection. Most of us just choose to go along with it, for the sake of escapism. In other words: I watched it for the plot.
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2013-01-13, 04:46 | Link #188 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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To talk about the fanservice in Vividred, I can't help but feel that most of the service in it have been exploitative and "calculated" to give matter to doujinshika. You have the lolis, you have the lesbian undertones and you have the ass shots. As if there was a huge neon sign that read, "FORGET THAT DEMON QUEEN SHOW! HERE IS YOUR FODDER TO DOUJINS!".
Almost in the same way Kyoto Animation have been constantly accused of running the meme machine. That's how I felt about the service in Vividred. I guess that's part of the reason why some people felt put off by it. That whole "calculated" vibe or the "checklit mentality". |
2013-01-13, 05:04 | Link #190 |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Actually, I did watch HotD for the plot. I even tried to discuss some of it in the thread, but no one else wanted to, because for everyone else it was all about the fanservice. Hard to blame them when breasts defy physics by turning into Neo from the Matrix.
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2013-01-13, 05:10 | Link #191 | |
Banned
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The director's a genius coz I felt these emotions: at the same time during that scene... About the plot.... yeah.. cliffhanger.... |
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2013-01-13, 05:15 | Link #192 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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IIRC, not only the fanservice but also Zombie Apocalypse Survival talk, waifu talk and how to kill the smug guy horribly.
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2013-01-13, 08:07 | Link #197 | |||||
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Most of what I wrote there was complimentary of VRO. Highly complimentary, in fact. Yet what ended up getting focused on? And the criticisms I wrote there were clearly presented as personal opinions. It's not like I was trying to pass them off as objective facts. "I'm not a fan of the fanservice" and "This show would be much better without it, imo." imo being short for "in my opinion." I never used a term as harsh as "trash". I never made any pretense about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. So why did it become such a big deal? I don't hate fanservice. In some cases, I like fanservice (yes, my current avatar makes that clear ). But I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where its apparently beyond criticism. Any element of any anime show is open to criticism, imo. And any element of any anime show is also open to compliment. In both cases, it's the reasoning behind the criticism or compliment that is most important, imo. Now, in fairness to you, some elements are so prevalent in a show, that yes, whether or not a person can roll with them will determine if they can like the show. Quote:
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Is it what otakus want? Some, yes, but not necessarily a majority. Madoka Magica did not have any pantsu shots, or anything on the level of a Strike Witches ass shot, and PMMM sold perfectly well. K-On! is another high-selling anime show, and it's amongst the cleanest TV shows I've ever seen. Heck, KyoAni shows in general tend to be (in)famously clean, and they tend to sell like hotcakes. So the actual objective evidence that fanservice is needed to drive this industry is questionable at best. So, again, I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where it's beyond criticism. Maybe it should be if 80% or more of the top-selling anime shows were sexual fanservice-driven. But they're not, due to Madoka Magica, AnoHana, SAO, Fate/Zero, and numerous KyoAni shows. Now, just to be clear, I definitely think that fanservice has a place in anime. I honestly wouldn't want fanservice to go away entirely. In some cases, it can add a nice spice to a show. But fanservice is an element that can be used well, or used poorly, just like any other element. Quote:
So if "what else is happening on screen" is an action scene that I was finding perfectly engaging until the pervy camera angles started, then naturally I'm not going to be fond of this fanservice that implicitly states "What are you focusing on that dull action scene for? This is what you really want, amirite? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*" Well, no, that isn't what I really want. I really did want the action scene. Just like you really did want the plot in HotD. And there's nothing wrong with us expressing those viewpoints.
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2013-01-13, 09:14 | Link #198 | |||||||||
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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The thing about Madoka though is that it felt like a lot of the criticism tried too hard. I'm sure some of it was legit, in the sense of simply being unhappy with something in particular, but a lot of it felt like bandwagon hate. Some of it was "out of nowhere" type of opinion: wasn't there a thread about how someone didn't want to watch it because it was a female cast? My point though was that I felt a lot of criticism crosses from opinion of like/dislike into "this or these elements really hurt my enjoyment". In that regard, the writing begins to feel less like a fan explaining his point of view, and more like a teardown for the sake of being nitpicky. Much like fans who get overly hyped for something only to rage when it doesn't (and probably could never) deliver, sometimes criticism seems unfair given all the positive you know the viewer had of it. It's perfectly okay to say "Man, this was absolutely awful, but I enjoyed it". Unfortunately, as you point out, people tend to pick and choose what they want to read and respond to. That's hardly the fault of a poster regardless of how much they guard against it. Quote:
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I drop a lot of shows because they just don't interest me anymore. Most people are like that, honestly. They fade away quietly rather than complain. Complaining, to me, is often a sign of investment. You need passion to complain. So clearly something keeps you interested in a show besides the things you hate. In fact, you probably complain because of your enjoyment, not in spite of it. For me, I just keep my expectations low. I'd rather be surprised by how good something is than sad or angry that it didn't hit some high bar I set for it. Maybe that's not a good thing, but as a foreign viewer I can't do much else. We get so little interaction with the industry because we aren't really their core market. Quote:
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I'm not sure what otakus want. Then again, I'm not sure what the industry wants either. This is probably a question for another topic though. Quote:
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Madoka aside, Fate/Zero rode on a popular multi-facted franchise backed by Gen's hyped writing (in no part thanks to Madoka, even though it was written before). AnoHana definitely used fanservice tropes to sell itself, even if it wasn't all about fanservice. And KyoAni made Endless Eight and survived. They're at the "Stephen King could write a horror story about a lamp and make millions" level of strength. Open to criticism, always. But its there because the people making it think the audience likes it. True or not, that at least needs to be accepted. Quote:
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2013-01-13, 09:53 | Link #199 | |
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If anything, I felt that SHAFT was too self-restrained here. 80s kids cartoon character He-Man had a more elaborate transformation scene than what Homura or Madoka did. Here's one case where I would have welcomed a bit more fanservice, not less. This is a side-issue, of course, but since your take on the PMMM transformation scenes was almost the opposite of mine, I wanted to put my take on it out there. I don't have many qualms with the rest of what you wrote. A couple nitpicks at most, but nothing really worth getting into. On the whole, I'm mostly in agreement with you. Good post.
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2013-01-13, 11:28 | Link #200 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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