Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Keroko]

Dog Days, the movies, its sound stages, Vivid, Force, Innocent...

Yeah, time sounds like the most likely factor.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

To recap: Manga and Movies? Commercially viable; the revenue exceeds profits, at least, in Japan. Nanoha has largely flopped in the west, at least compared to other magical girl series. I wish it hadn't, but I can't deny reality. Anime series? Apparently not commercially viable anymore.

Performance in the west is hardly relevant in the context in the current anime industry. You may argue that the industry as a whole has become more insular, but that's about it, not to mention the whole mentality that animation is for children over here.

And manga is a far larger market than anime and cheaper to make. It's not just about making more than you spend in a business. It's also about profit margins so no surprise they went that route. There's also the concept of money flow, where sometimes making a quick buck while the rest of your money is in circulation is more effective. (The concept of time)

If they were to make an anime where they would regain 1.5 times what they put in, but it would take 3 years to come out, then it might not be the best idea. Even though 50% ROI is great if they can do even better with other things. Also, if an anime can make a profit but people don't think the chances of success is high enough then it may be rejected. It doesn't mean it's not profitable, but there are safer ways-- and apparently movies and manga are the safer ways.

And I love the argument of "it's popular in it's niche!" Which is a bit like saying I am popular in the country of Monaco... totally leaving out the fact that Monaco is one of the smallest countries on Earth, at about 0.7 square miles. And actually, if we're talking niche, then it would be the magical girl niche, and Sailor Moon and Pretty Cure beat the pants off Nanoha. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Card Captor Sakura has more popularity. Even ones like Shugo Chara are probably more well-known.

That analogy doesn't fly. It's more like comparing something being popular in a region compared to something popular worldwide... and then using it to displace the former. And it should be obvious why Sakura and Pretty Cure should be more popular. Nanoha doesn't really target younger girls.

Honestly, your knowledge of the anime industry is insufficient to continue this debate, and especially not to pass your observations as fact. If you weren't, I'm sorry, but your wording is coming off as very strong. If you can't understand why Madhouse could easily put out Sakura and continue to market it for years while having far more material, while Seven Arcs can't do the same with Nanoha, you have much to look up. Also, note the diffrence that Sakura is an adaptation with source material and Nanoha is anime original. Hint: How many franchisess can Seven Arc market and use that revenue to make more productions, and then look at what Toei and Madhouse have. How many production committees are going to look at Seven Arcs and be like "Gee, let's fund them to make more of something!"?

This isn't even factored by the fact that anime is dominated by adaptations... and there's a reason for that.

[bhl88]

.... From zero to six in being obscure.... Nanoha would be three or four.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And I'm only taking scenes from side characters. So, no problem! Well, I did take 27 seconds from Hayate, so perhaps I should add it back in.

But I think the larger point to be made here, is that you don't actually want Fate development. You aren't as much of a Fate fan as you might claim; you want to hold her back. If you were really a Fate fan, you'd be happy with any development she got. In fact, you'd love to see her develop with everyone. You don't. You only want to see Fate develop with one person. A very narrow viewpoint that only really holds Fate back as a character. I kinda wish you'd stop hating on her, and allow her to fully flesh out her relationships with everyone, particulary her family.

On the contrary, I seem to be the only one here who merely enjoys my favorite character on the screen. While everyone else whines about the characters motivations and personalities were altered in the movie, I think of it as a refreshing new side to them.

Nevertheless, Nanoha is Fate's most important person as of A's, and I feel like their relationship plays foremost to her development.

Lindy is another matter (and Fate did have some development with Lindy), however I don't feel as it there is any significance to developing Chrono and Fate's relationship this early into the series timeline. Just six months ago he shot her down, severely wounding her arm. And followed that up with hoping the Kraken would finish her off. And then six months later you expect them to be all brotherly and sisterly to each other?

You were the only who brought up their exclusitivity for each other. I've only been using that. Hell, I'm the one who wants to fully flesh her out with her family, and you're the one who only wants to focus on her relationship with one person. You're only interested in Fate's relationship with Nanoha, and her ass. Apparently, her ass is more important to you, then her adopted brother and mother. More important than poor Arf, too.

And you were the one that brought up Nanoha's exclusivity to Fate, yet somehow that doesn't work in reverse for you?

Fact: I like Fate's relationship with Nanoha and her ass.

Fiction: That is the sole reason I like her.

I'm fine with whatever they choose to do with Fate. You simply have an ulterior motive here. This is a remake to A's, the series that had more NanoFate than any other kind of Harlaown relationship building in the first place. And I'm perfectly happy that they kept it that way.

So, two series and a two hour movie of NanoFate wasn't enough.

The first season/movie was about becoming friends, A's and second movie shows the fruits of its labor. It would be largely disappointing for them to become friends after all the angst and long fought battles, only for A's to disregard their relationship. And you keep forgetting that the movies are remakes. I expect to mostly see in the movie what I also saw in the series.

And yet, incredibly defensive when people start talking about how the movie could be changed to give more focus on Fate's other relationships, and other characters, at least to flesh out full closure to the plot threads they introduce.

Like you've been told many times before, we're critical here. We look at everything. That means Fate. If you don't like that she goes under the microscope, then you might want to find a forum that has nothing but praise and admiration for her.

You're not interested in Fate's relationship with Lindy/Chrono, all you truly want is Chrono and Lindy focus regarding the BoD. Fate merely plays second string to you.

You have a faulty microscope, just saying.

Nanoha's family?

Yeah sure, when you get to the thirtieth most important character in the series, you're going to be left with undeveloped. Fairy Tail didn't develop everyone, there are a few in the guild that never got a character focused episode at all.

[Sunder the Gold]

I want to see more Fate/Arf, Fate/Lindy, Fate/Chrono, Fate/Yuuno, Fate/Signum, and Fate/Hayate moments.

I'd like to see ANY Fate/Amy moments. Or even Fate/Vita. Because why should Fate/Signum and Nanoha/Vita be the only significant cross-relationships? Hell, Fate fought Vita before Signum.

Rather than more Nanoha/Fate, I want to see some Nanoha/Arf, especially if Nanoha is replacing Arf as the person closest to Fate. I DO NOT want to see Arf shoved off to a library just to simplify the Nanoha/Fate dynamic. That's bullshit.

When you marry someone, you get their family. Where's the Nanoha/Lindy moments, or the Nanoha/Chrono moments?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

I want to see more Fate/Arf, Fate/Lindy, Fate/Chrono, Fate/Yuuno, Fate/Signum, and Fate/Hayate moments.

I'd like to see ANY Fate/Amy moments. Or even Fate/Vita. Because why should Fate/Signum and Nanoha/Vita be the only significant cross-relationships? Hell, Fate fought Vita before Signum.

Rather than more Nanoha/Fate, I want to see some Nanoha/Arf, especially if Nanoha is replacing Arf as the person closest to Fate. I DO NOT want to see Arf shoved off to a library just to simplify the Nanoha/Fate dynamic. That's bullshit.

When you marry someone, you get their family. Where's the Nanoha/Lindy moments, or the Nanoha/Chrono moments?

I'm curious - What's your view on the total number of named characters in the broader Nanoha universe? Too many, too few, just right?

Do you think they've been introduced at a good pace, too fast and too quick, or too slow?

[Sunder the Gold]

I think the third season was unbelievably ridiculous about cast bloat, but that the first two seasons didn't introduce any extraneous characters.

I mean, sure, Lindy's male bridgecrew members were always there, and one or two of them might have been mentioned by name in passing, but no time was wasted in introducing them (StrikerS: "Hi, here's Griffith! Say hello to Griffith! He'll NEVER show up again!"). They were always being used as accessories to someone else's scene, as is proper for background characters.

Amy and Doctor Ishida each served a purpose, and neither got any more screentime than necessary for that purpose. Amy got a little more screentime than her narrative purpose strictly required, but only because of her relationship with Chrono and Lindy, which served to make all three of them seem fuller.


I think the sound stages could be used to give us the slice-of-life relationship building that can't be fit into a TV series.

Not more of the Yagami family sitting down to eat dinner; we already saw that on-screen in the second season. Rather, they need to show us snapshots of gatherings we HAVEN'T seen. The post-A's sakura-viewing picnic is an excellent example.

The Nanoha/Fate staff-fighting scene is absolutely the sort of thing that should have shown up in supplementary manga or sound-dramas. It would be even better when animated, of course, but I couldn't point to a spot in the second season where it would have been a good fit.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes, but apparently you forgot the little calculation I did a page back.

Not forgot, but dismissed as irrelevant, since those numbers are only estimations. And as the issues square highlights, there are all sorts of additional costs that you are most likely not factoring in. Also, 7arcs isn't taking the full 100% of DVD revenue; that, too, is split between various companies. Every distributor and retailer adds their own cut onto it, meaning 7arcs doesn't see the full price.

Originally Posted by Amaterasu1963

Everyone seems to be ignoring the simplest and easiest explanation: Time.

You seem to be forgetting the all of the writing for Nanoha is being done by one man, Tsuzuki. He got 2 ongoing manga series and all the movie work to do. He wouldn't have time to do another series at the same time.

Two manga series that are once a month, with occasional breaks, and a movie every 2 years, which is long, even by anime movie standards. I've seen people do vastly more than that. Mashima of Fairy Tail, puts out a weekly manga *and* a movie... and also worked on an anime only story arc.

Tsuzuki's workload would be medium at most, and for a popular series, a company would bring in much more additional help to animate it. As I said, if it was profitable, it would be done.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Performance in the west is hardly relevant in the context in the current anime industry. You may argue that the industry as a whole has become more insular, but that's about it, not to mention the whole mentality that animation is for children over here.

True, but the argument initially was over popularity. Establishing that Nanoha is unpopular in the west, even among anime people in the west, goes to that point.

And manga is a far larger market than anime and cheaper to make. It's not just about making more than you spend in a business. It's also about profit margins so no surprise they went that route. There's also the concept of money flow, where sometimes making a quick buck while the rest of your money is in circulation is more effective. (The concept of time)

The use of CGI can make things cheaper, and there is outsourcing, but a movie is rarely outsourced as much as an anime series(QA issues, and movies are generally higher quality). Thus, would make an anime series cheaper to make by comparison.

If they were to make an anime where they would regain 1.5 times what they put in, but it would take 3 years to come out, then it might not be the best idea. Even though 50% ROI is great if they can do even better with other things. Also, if an anime can make a profit but people don't think the chances of success is high enough then it may be rejected. It doesn't mean it's not profitable, but there are safer ways-- and apparently movies and manga are the safer ways.

3 years for a 12 ep anime season? Not really. 1 year max. Meanwhile, we're getting movies every 2 years. If they don't like their money tied up, they are going about it the wrong way.

That analogy doesn't fly. It's more like comparing something being popular in a region compared to something popular worldwide... and then using it to displace the former. And it should be obvious why Sakura and Pretty Cure should be more popular. Nanoha doesn't really target younger girls.

Little girls don't matter. It's the male market that is the biggest consumer; hence why shonen shows are the most popular. Nanoha, trying to appeal more to boys, should thus be more popular, following that line of logic. It isn't.

Honestly, your knowledge of the anime industry is insufficient to continue this debate, and especially not to pass your observations as fact.

.

I never said it was fact; merely the likeliest explanation. I was applying basic economic principles, with standard knowledge of how companies stay in business. You're free to think otherwise, but until I see evidence otherwise, I'll go the most logical likely explanation. We could also apply Occam's Razor: simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. You are free to believe companies aren't motivated by making money if you wish.

Originally Posted by Demi.

On the contrary, I seem to be the only one here who merely enjoys my favorite character on the screen. While everyone else whines about the characters motivations and personalities were altered in the movie, I think of it as a refreshing new side to them.

But you don't care about Fate's relationship with her own family.

Nevertheless, Nanoha is Fate's most important person as of A's, and I feel like their relationship plays foremost to her development.

To you. Who cares how her brother and mother get screwed, when we can get time with Fate staring at Nanoha with stars in her eyes?

Lindy is another matter (and Fate did have some development with Lindy), however I don't feel as it there is any significance to developing Chrono and Fate's relationship this early into the series timeline. Just six months ago he shot her down, severely wounding her arm. And followed that up with hoping the Kraken would finish her off. And then six months later you expect them to be all brotherly and sisterly to each other?

Nanoha blasted Fate out of the sky with a nuke. In that line of reasoning, one wouldn't expect Fate to be all sisterly/lovey with Nanoha. But it is exactly that line of relationship development that would then be important. They are siblings now, and they'll see each other often. They'll have to work through any issues they have with each other. Her relationship with Nanoha is peachy-keen now, and doesn't need development; we already know how they both feel and it will remain unchanged for a long time to come.

How *does* Fate feel about Chrono, though? We don't know, do we? You talk about wanting to see another side of Fate, but all you want to see is the same Nanoha side of her, and the same Precia issues side of her. Oh, and her ass. You want to see more of that. So why not just admit that you don't care about several of Fate's sides, and are only interested in a few? Just be honest that it is not really development you want to see. Which makes sense, now that I look back.

[quote]The first season/movie was about becoming friends, A's and second movie shows the fruits of its labor. It would be largely disappointing for them to become friends after all the angst and long fought battles, only for A's to disregard their relationship. And you keep forgetting that the movies are remakes. I expect to mostly see in the movie what I also saw in the series.

You're not interested in Fate's relationship with Lindy/Chrono, all you truly want is Chrono and Lindy focus regarding the BoD. Fate merely plays second string to you.

Perhaps you missed where I suggested the Chrono dream eater sequence, in which Fate would intervene to help her brother come to terms with it, while also coming to terms with her new family and her feelings in regard to that. I thought that would sequence would indicate that I wanted to see her relationship toward others examined, instead of the same ole, same ole.

Yeah sure, when you get to the thirtieth most important character in the series, you're going to be left with undeveloped.

Actually, we had plenty of time to give some characters like Arisa, Suzuka, Nanoha's family, Lindy, and Chrono some development in both 1st and 2nd movie. We didn't. Wanna take a guess as to why?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm curious - What's your view on the total number of named characters in the broader Nanoha universe? Too many, too few, just right?

Do you think they've been introduced at a good pace, too fast and too quick, or too slow?

Personally, I think there is a good number right now. The series, overall, did a good job developing most of them. Some, like Alex and Randy, truly are secondary/support characters, and thus need no development. They are just there to flesh out a bridge crew. Some, like Lindy and Chrono, are main characters with connections to the plot that need exploring. Though there are relationships that do need to be explored more. Some characters never really interact (like Yuuno and Hayate), and so you begin to wonder if these people are even friends. Sound stages help to a degree, but even they don't cover anything. We don't see Fate developing with her family much, for instance, and nothing much with Chrono.

[Sunder the Gold]

There absolutely should have been sound stages involving the magical world's reaction to the Wolkenritter's "return."

If not any scenes where they meet and talk with Church representatives, then definitely such a scene where Yuuno grills them for anything and everything they remember about the various eras they experienced.

But this fell by the wayside in much the same way as did ANY explanation for the Wolkenritter's origins (humans or programs?) or Raising Heart's origins.

Developing the Wolkenritter's origins and history, and the present society's reaction to them, would have REALLY fleshed out the setting.


Yuuno's clan (and his relationship with them) also should have gotten a little more development, because the Scrya clan is EASILY the best plot device for introducing another Doomsday Device plot.

And of course, the Vita/Yuuno rematch that so many of us wanted.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But you don't care about Fate's relationship with her own family.

You're sacrificing one relationship for another. I already stated that Fate's loyalty is one part that I really like about her. I dig the fact that Nanoha is the most important person to her, rather than liking everyone equally. Just as how I like the extremes she was willing to go to in order to be accepted by Precia, despite the torture Precia put her through.

Developing Fate's relationship with her family is something I would like to see, but I don't feel the NanoFate was abundant enough in the first place to cut it in half and make room for it.

And like I said, the dream scene is my favorite scene in the movie, altering it in any way can only make it worse.

Nevertheless, I don't think you're understanding me. I was more than satisfied with the route the movie took in that regard. If it decided to put more emphasis on the Harlaown family as a whole, I probably would have been fine with that too. I just see no reason to alter what I already greatly enjoyed.

To you. Who cares how her brother and mother get screwed, when we can get time with Fate staring at Nanoha with stars in her eyes?

I'm sorry Kaijo, but most people don't look at a series and think to themselves: "Hmm, what can I cut to make it fair for everyone...?"
I enjoyed it, that's reason enough to be content.

Nanoha blasted Fate out of the sky with a nuke. In that line of reasoning, one wouldn't expect Fate to be all sisterly/lovey with Nanoha. But it is exactly that line of relationship development that would then be important. They are siblings now, and they'll see each other often. They'll have to work through any issues they have with each other. Her relationship with Nanoha is peachy-keen now, and doesn't need development; we already know how they both feel and it will remain unchanged for a long time to come.

She sure did, but did you notice how she was left uninjured after Nanoha blasted her? Chrono on the other hand must have used physical damage on her because she was clearly bleeding and knocked unconscious. Not to mention the bandage wrap she used that covered her whole arm.
I still stand by my reason that six months is too soon to make that kind of leap, considering the circumstances they started off with.

How *does* Fate feel about Chrono, though? We don't know, do we? You talk about wanting to see another side of Fate, but all you want to see is the same Nanoha side of her, and the same Precia issues side of her. Oh, and her ass. You want to see more of that. So why not just admit that you don't care about several of Fate's sides, and are only interested in a few? Just be honest that it is not really development you want to see. Which makes sense, now that I look back.

Yes, in both the first season and A's, those are the sides to her I like to see the most, because they are largely the most significant importance to her at the time. It's no mystery that we have a different interpretation of what makes a good character. Fate, Homura, Mai are the type of characters I find endearing. They'll go to extremes and make great sacrifices to benefit their loved one...As compared to the shounen hero who tries to please and be friends with everyone. That's not to say they can't make friends and be nice to other people, but they're content with only one person in their life.

Perhaps you missed where I suggested the Chrono dream eater sequence, in which Fate would intervene to help her brother come to terms with it, while also coming to terms with her new family and her feelings in regard to that. I thought that would sequence would indicate that I wanted to see her relationship toward others examined, instead of the same ole, same ole.

Like I said, I just can't wrap my head around it. I have my doubt that cutting Fates dream in half would be enough to make it reasonably believable that Fate came to terms with her issues, let alone Fate also being there to help with Chronos issues. Chrono lost a parent almost a decade ago, I'm fairly certain he's in better shape than Fate is, emotionally.

Actually, we had plenty of time to give some characters like Arisa, Suzuka, Nanoha's family, Lindy, and Chrono some development in both 1st and 2nd movie. We didn't. Wanna take a guess as to why?

Lack of time?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

You're sacrificing one relationship for another. I already stated that Fate's loyalty is one part that I really like about her. I dig the fact that Nanoha is the most important person to her, rather than liking everyone equally. Just as how I like the extremes she was willing to go to in order to be accepted by Precia, despite the torture Precia put her through.

Developing Fate's relationship with her family is something I would like to see, but I don't feel the NanoFate was abundant enough in the first place to cut it in half and make room for it.

Because there will never be time for it, in your eyes. As I mentioned before, if those scenes I cut never existed in the first place, you would never have missed them. You'd still have your impression of NanoFate relationship development with the majority of scenes that they were in, plus the series.

You know very well that, in the next movie, you will get more NanoFate stuff. And in the movie after that. So I am curious... what is too much for you? When do you reach a point where you'll say, "Okay, it would really be nice to cut down on NanoFate and learn something about her relationship with other people?" I'm betting you don't have one.

And like I said, the dream scene is my favorite scene in the movie, altering it in any way can only make it worse.

In other words, exploring any other aspect of Fate, can only make Fate worse. She will forever be Nanoha's other half. Her issues will only ever revolve around Precia. She can go no farther as a character, then. She's done.

I'm sorry Kaijo, but most people don't look at a series and think to themselves: "Hmm, what can I cut to make it fair for everyone...?"
I enjoyed it, that's reason enough to be content.

Yeah, that takes empathy. Not everyone has it. This is the internet, after all.

She sure did, but did you notice how she was left uninjured after Nanoha blasted her? Chrono on the other hand must have used physical damage on her because she was clearly bleeding and knocked unconscious. Not to mention the bandage wrap she used that covered her whole arm.
I still stand by my reason that six months is too soon to make that kind of leap, considering the circumstances they started off with.

Okay, since you didn't catch what I was saying, I was taking your "she would have issues with Chrono" argument and pointing out that it might have been a good idea to showcase to the audience that you aren't brushing those under the rug. If we go with your reasoning, this would almost be more important to show.

But I think you underestimate Fate. As in the series, she understood very well Chrono's role, and showed no animosity toward him. She was, in fact, very grateful for his help in her trial. She is the type of person to forgive with understanding; Chrono was just doing his job. And if you really think they told her about the kraken decision...

Yes, in both the first season and A's, those are the sides to her I like to see the most, because they are largely the most significant importance to her at the time. It's no mystery that we have a different interpretation of what makes a good character. Fate, Homura, Mai are the type of characters I find endearing. They'll go to extremes and make great sacrifices to benefit their loved one...As compared to the shounen hero who tries to please and be friends with everyone. That's not to say they can't make friends and be nice to other people, but they're content with only one person in their life.

In essence, then, you turn them into one-dimensional characters. One-dimensional characters are so named, because there is only one real thing that they showcase. For Fate, it is her relationship in regards to Nanoha. As long as you confine her to that, she will never grow and develop. She will always be one-half of NanoFate, never exploring relationships with other characters, never moving beyond Precia issues; and I mean that Precia issues will be her only issues. Perfect in every other way. Kinda like a Mary Sue; mostly perfect, but the author thinks himself clever because, "I gave her a DARK and TRAUMATIC past that haunts her! That is her weak point!" But otherwise, Mary Sue gets what she wants.

Naw, I take that back. At least Mary Sue characters will interact with more than a couple of people.

Like I said, I just can't wrap my head around it. I have my doubt that cutting Fates dream in half would be enough to make it reasonably believable that Fate came to terms with her issues, let alone Fate also being there to help with Chronos issues. Chrono lost a parent almost a decade ago, I'm fairly certain he's in better shape than Fate is, emotionally.

But we don't care about her issues with Chrono, right?

Lack of time?

Heh, I love how you tiptoe around the elephant in the room.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because there will never be time for it, in your eyes. As I mentioned before, if those scenes I cut never existed in the first place, you would never have missed them. You'd still have your impression of NanoFate relationship development with the majority of scenes that they were in, plus the series.

I vividly remember the NanoFate scenes that were already cut in the movie, I doubt cutting even more isn't going to at least make me notice the minimal amount of NanoFate scenes present.

You know very well that, in the next movie, you will get more NanoFate stuff. And in the movie after that. So I am curious... what is too much for you? When do you reach a point where you'll say, "Okay, it would really be nice to cut down on NanoFate and learn something about her relationship with other people?" I'm betting you don't have one.

Will I ever get sick of their dynamic? No. Do I think it is as essential to Fates development post-A's? Negative. I got what I wanted out of this movie and while I will never get tired of them being together, I don't feel it will be as important in future installments. I still stand by my rationale that the two most important aspects to Fate's development in A's were- 1.) Being able to finally move on from that place where she feels useless and trapped with the ghost of her mother. Which leads to 2.) She has confidence in herself, she can move forward, and now she’s comfortable taking Nanoha’s hand, in comforting Nanoha, instead of always waiting for Nanoha to take her hand, instead of feeling unworthy of her.

In other words, exploring any other aspect of Fate, can only make Fate worse. She will forever be Nanoha's other half. Her issues will only ever revolve around Precia. She can go no farther as a character, then. She's done.

No, but the dream scene had near perfect execution at just the right time, for just the right reason. This is still a remake of A's, I see no reason to alter the scene to something completely different when her key issues have yet to be resolved.

Yeah, that takes empathy. Not everyone has it. This is the internet, after all.

I have empathy for all the dying children in Africa, or the many woman in countries who are faced with inequality on a daily basis.

...For this? Not so much. It's an entertainment medium, if you don't like what you're watching, you're free to leave as you please.

Okay, since you didn't catch what I was saying, I was taking your "she would have issues with Chrono" argument and pointing out that it might have been a good idea to showcase to the audience that you aren't brushing those under the rug. If we go with your reasoning, this would almost be more important to show.

Or that it's too early to show, like I've been saying.

But I think you underestimate Fate. As in the series, she understood very well Chrono's role, and showed no animosity toward him. She was, in fact, very grateful for his help in her trial. She is the type of person to forgive with understanding; Chrono was just doing his job. And if you really think they told her about the kraken decision...

We're talking about a girl that showed no animosity to a mother that beat her on a daily basis. That's not really the point. Going from what happened in the first movie to a warmhearted sibling relationship in the span of six months... feels rushed to me, to say the least. They don't even have any reason to be that way, to be honest. It was Lindy's idea to take Fate in. They have no relationship beyond that. And it's not one that I think could have blossomed in between movies.

Kinda like a Mary Sue; mostly perfect, but the author thinks himself clever because, "I gave her a DARK and TRAUMATIC past that haunts her!

Fate? Mary Sue? Surely you jest.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not forgot, but dismissed as irrelevant, since those numbers are only estimations. And as the issues square highlights, there are all sorts of additional costs that you are most likely not factoring in. Also, 7arcs isn't taking the full 100% of DVD revenue; that, too, is split between various companies. Every distributor and retailer adds their own cut onto it, meaning 7arcs doesn't see the full price.

So you're dismissing a calculation based at least partially on factual numbers as irrelevant, but keep throwing the word "cost" with zero factual backing as a reasonable argument?

That's a really hypocritical standpoint.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Two manga series that are once a month, with occasional breaks, and a movie every 2 years, which is long, even by anime movie standards.

And its sound stages. And Innocent. And the PSP games. And Dog Days (which has a third season in the works right now).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

I think the third season was unbelievably ridiculous about cast bloat, but that the first two seasons didn't introduce any extraneous characters.

Good answer.

I asked you the questions that I did for this reason - The main reason you're not getting more of those varied one-on-one character interactions between Fate and various cast members, and Nanoha and various cast members, is because of the ridiculous cast bloat that happened in StrikerS.

Without said cast bloat, what you'd like to have seen would have happened, and in significant detail - In StrikerS.

But our friend Kaijo apparently thinks the cast growth seen in StrikerS (and even in Vivid and Force, presumably) represents a "good number right now". And at the same time wants characters like Chrono and Lindy to also get more focus.

And given a certain someone's continuing emphasis on "empathy", it's here where I think it's fitting to point out how there's a certain type of person that's hard to feel empathy for. It's the perfectionist person with unrealistic expectations. It's hard to feel empathy for someone who thinks that you can have your Bleach cake, and eat your Full Metal Alchemist cake too. If you support Bleach-level cast enlargement, then you frankly have no business expecting FMA levels of character development for every semi-important to important member of the cast.

Nanoha's approach to cast enlargement was always going to inevitably downgrade older supporting cast characters. It's very predictable what happens here, because we've seen it happen before, in properties like Bleach. As a cast enlarges very quickly and very massively, two things happen - Though seemingly counter-intuitive, the focus gets more intense on the actual main protagonists, because they represent welcomed continuity and stability in a constantly shifting cast. But characters that were once important supporting cast characters get crushed in the wave of new cast members, as most readers/viewers can only bring themselves to truly care about so many characters. Eventually, all the "shiny new toys" makes many readers/viewers care less about older toys (with the afforementioned exception of the main protagonists).

[Archon_Wing]

@ Triple_R There's too many fucking characters. ;p

Originally Posted by Kaijo

True, but the argument initially was over popularity. Establishing that Nanoha is unpopular in the west, even among anime people in the west, goes to that point.

That much is fair, but there are certainly other reasons why it didn't get bought, including it just being overpriced.

3 years for a 12 ep anime season? Not really. 1 year max. Meanwhile, we're getting movies every 2 years. If they don't like their money tied up, they are going about it the wrong way.

I was just thinking about it compared to what they can crank out manga at, which seems to be their bread and butter.

Little girls don't matter. It's the male market that is the biggest consumer; hence why shonen shows are the most popular. Nanoha, trying to appeal more to boys, should thus be more popular, following that line of logic. It isn't.

Are you seriously saying the shojo genre doesn't matter? It is correct that the male demographic is bigger, but it's not to the degree of which it is inconsequential. This is why I didn't accept your Monaco analogy-- you are trivializing it that far and not making fair comparisons. Just because A is larger than B, does not make B inconsequential. Comparing Nanoha to Sakura would be like comparing a popular local restaurant to a restaurant chain. Sakura was destined to be more mainstream, regardless of any further action. It is an adaptation of a manga series, and manga is more mainstream than anime is, and you factor in the larger demographic targeting, thus the gap in popularity rises.

.

I never said it was fact; merely the likeliest explanation. I was applying basic economic principles, with standard knowledge of how companies stay in business. You're free to think otherwise, but until I see evidence otherwise, I'll go the most logical likely explanation. We could also apply Occam's Razor: simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. You are free to believe companies aren't motivated by making money if you wish.

My point is that you're not taking in account of what actually happens in the industry and thus were making, frankly absurd comparisons. I usually respect your arguments even if I don't agree, but in this case you just haven't done the proper research on the specific industry. While applying basic economic principles is sound, it's far too broad of a brush to really make any specific assessment.

You want to say businesses make money. Yes, that's the point of a business. But there's no end to the degree of risk management, limitations due to scale, and the company's own assessment of its target demographic (not to mention outlying competition) that really makes a reason of why you can't just take econ 101 and then wield what you learn from it as a blunt instrument.

It's just funny, because I too, want to get rid of stuff like the creepy pedo stuff to make it more accessible too. But let's not engage in these tangents because I feel it doesn't help the point much.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I asked you the questions that I did for this reason - The main reason you're not getting more of those varied one-on-one character interactions between Fate and various cast members, and Nanoha and various cast members, is because of the ridiculous cast bloat that happened in StrikerS.

Without said cast bloat, what you'd like to have seen would have happened, and in significant detail - In StrikerS.

Partially, but sloppy writing is the biggest offender. There's anime out there with a cast as big as StrikerS if not bigger that still managed to develop each character properly, but StrikerS wasted a good half of its series by waiting too long with introducing the Numbers. If they had introduced the numbers as the main antagonists from the first episode instead of the faceless drones, there would have been much more time to develop them.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Partially, but sloppy writing is the biggest offender. There's anime out there with a cast as big as StrikerS if not bigger that still managed to develop each character properly,

Are you sure? I honestly have a hard time thinking of a two cour anime show with more characters of note than what StrikerS had. ...Maybe Shana season 3? But at least half or more of them were already well-developed going into Shana season 3.

Here are the StrikerS characters of note:

Team Stars:

Nanoha, Vita, Subaru, Teana (4)


Team Lightning:

Fate, Signum, Erio, Caro (4)


Other protagonists:

Hayate, Vivio, Chrono, Shamal, Zafira, Alph, Yuuno (7)


The Antagonists:

Jail, Lutecia, Zest, Agito, The Numbers (16)


We're already looking at 31 named characters of import. And that's before I even get to the Saint Church, or to most DAB/TSAB officers.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Partially, but sloppy writing is the biggest offender. There's anime out there with a cast as big as StrikerS if not bigger that still managed to develop each character properly.

Yeah, I wonder how many in this subforum have watched this sprawling epic casting more characters than the japanese alphabet.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are you sure? I honestly have a hard time thinking of a two cour anime show with more characters of note than what StrikerS had. ...Maybe Shana season 3? But at least half or more of them were already well-developed going into Shana season 3.

Here are the StrikerS characters of note:

Team Stars:

Nanoha, Vita, Subaru, Teana (4)


Team Lightning:

Fate, Signum, Erio, Caro (4)


Other protagonists:

Hayate, Vivio, Chrono, Shamal, Zafira, Alph, Yuuno (7)


The Antagonists:

Jail, Lutecia, Zest, Agito, The Numbers (16)


We're already looking at 31 named characters of import. And that's before I even get to the Saint Church, or to most DAB/TSAB officers.

Of those 31, we have 11 that are returning characters, so you still have 20 new characters to develop, which can be a lot, I admit.

However, Keroko is right, the Numbers should have been introduced sooner to give them more development.

I'd like to point out that Negima introduced 32 characters not named Negi right away.

You also have Sekirei which has 108 aliens, most of whom have to be dealt with off-screen because the writers realized "shit, we have too many".

Shin Mazinger ran for about 26 episodes (IIRC) and it had way more than 20 cast members.

Your typical Gundam show has at least 30-some characters in it that get plenty of screen time. And, just a point in fact, Rambal Ral in the original Gundam was mostly famous for saying "This is no Zaku", infiltrating White Base and giving Amuro more of a fight than anyone else had before that point other than Char. I think he was only in like 2-5 episodes anyway.

[Keroko]

It seems my weird habit of getting interested in something in a debate and starting to research reared its quirky head again.

Remember these calculations? Well, as I myself and Kaijo pointed out, it doesn't really include the revenue that goes to the various companies. So I did some research. Turns out, anime studios tends to earn about 55% of every DVD sale.

So, for Nanoha, this would mean a rough 648.584.420 yen net profit.

Now we substract the production cost. Unfortunately hard data for this is more difficult to find, but on average it's around 11.000.000 yen per episode, and given the rather... mediocre quality of StrikerS, I have little reason to believe it would widely deviate from this. Especially when that Dog Days, their current animation project, has far superior quality (and thus would be even more expensive).

So, sticking to the 11 million average, that leaves us with a production cost of... 286.000.000 yen.

Substracting this from the net profit, this still leaves us with a 362.584.420 yen profit margin from the anime alone.

Oh, since it was mentioned a couple of times, one more theory for there being no new Nanoha series? they're working on both Dog Days and the movies.