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Tiresias · 2013-04-08, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

well in Nasuverse, magic/magecraft has a price to pay. Nanoha is like screw the law of balance, everything is MASSIVE output.

What RD said.Also, that character exaggeration is really getting old, people start to blur canon with fanon

Filraen · 2013-04-08, 23:04

I'd rather say that, while weaker, Nanohaverse magic (in particulat Mid-style) is developed and well-documented to be safer than Nasu-style magic.

(Please note I'm not saying anything on how reckless can be practicioners of magic.)

Twi · 2013-04-09, 00:19

Nasuverse magecraft is far more dangerous and the number of magi are fewer...and Gilgamesh is around with his Anti-world NP.

In the Nanohaverse, they have militaries and magical artifacts of doom, along with a mad scientist or experiment gone wrong.

Magi walk a path of death in the nasuverse, even as children. See Sakura for reference.
In Nanoha...well, Vivid should explain that much.

In all honesty, just putting anything from the Nasuverse in the first season of Nanoha is condemning it to a darker theme.

In fact, you really want twisted, Fate is the Sakura of the first season. Abusive parent. Wanting something they can't have. Needing to be saved. Shirou would be inclined to murder Precia on principle and then go see someone about healing Alicia. With all the crap Magi do to extend their lives, I know at least one person could get the job done....

Rising Dragon · 2013-04-09, 00:25

It's not really a fair comparison, though, is it? Magic is dying out in Type-MOON, and a closely guarded secret as a result. Its practitioners are its biggest problem, as its full of sociopaths and paranoid fanatics who can't trust one another and more often than not are working against one another despite them all aiming for the same goal.

Magic in Nanoha is thriving, however, and doesn't need to be hid, with the research and development of it being far safer. People there are able to cooperate and not need to kill one another.

Also, far more dangerous? MGLN is the one that had a nine-year-old girl able to crush an entire city with a single spell. :V

Lhklan · 2013-04-09, 00:29

Nanohaverse magic have the power, the ease to use on their side. Nasuverse magic got the lethality and hax as recompense.

And the difference between top tier mage and common one in Nasu are more visible than in Nanoha.

But that's just me.

Akiyoshi · 2013-04-09, 00:55

I don't know much of the Nasuverse beyon the Fate series but Magic there seems to be a bit more elitist than in the Nanohaverse.

Nanohaverse magic is overall more versatile and pwoerfull than Nasuverse magic but some very specific mages or artifacts in the Nasuverse have some insanely hax powers that are limited in use but are very powerfull withing the appropiate conditions. Nanoha can blow up a city but she's no match for a mage-killing bullet made of pulverized ribs ...but at the same time the gun user is far more vulnerable than Nanoha because the guy can't fly, have normal resistances (unlike Nanoha who can smash through entire buildings and still be able to fight evenly), Nanoha surpasses Kiritsugu in pretty much everything but all Kiritsugu needs is a single chance and a good shot to take Nanoha down forever. (kinda like the Avadakedabra spell on Harry Potter, it has poor range, needs aim and is pretty much just a lame green small ray ....but it has the power to get across any kind of magical defense and is a sure-kill against any target that gets hit).

Oh yeah, that's a another detail, most of Nasuverse's more effective opponents tend to play dirty a lot ...or at least they try to exploit and abuse their few hax abilites as much as they can. So, unless it's about very by-the-book honorable characters like Saber, Diarmuid or Gilgamesh (yeah, the guy is an insufferable egocentric dick but i give him credit for not cheating, he always faces his opponents frontface xD) you can't expect Nanohaverse character to fight a fair battle xDU

Tiresias · 2013-04-09, 01:02

Nasu magic conflicts with Nanoha from the very basics, no thanks to the importance of Mystery in the former. It's the reason they are elitist, avoids technology unless necessary, and doesn't cooperate.

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Nasu magic conflicts with Nanoha from the very basics, no thanks to the importance of Mystery in the former. It's the reason they are elitist, avoids technology unless necessary, and doesn't cooperate.

And that would be one of them reasons why I want to keep the two worlds separate...

bhl88 · 2013-04-09, 02:30

Theres plenty of Nanoha vs Nasu battles which are one sided:
- Gilgamesh vs Lieze Twins (Gil wins with not trying)
- Gilgamesh vs Nanoha (Nanoha Ea'd)
- Berserker vs Aces, Wolks, those two guys, Rein Zwei (utterly annihilated)
- Archer vs Signum (battle was not continued)
- Shirou vs Riot Force 6 (not continued)
- Shirou vs Precia (Shirou failed)
- Shirou vs Chrono (Chrono won)

It would depend on you, really.

Tiresias · 2013-04-09, 02:42

Were those references to a fanfic?

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 03:18

Btw. I was accused of making Shirou go God Mode and solving all problems with his powers. While I do agree that he needs to be Nerfed (I'm working on it) you are forgetting one important issue. His mindset.
This is not Goodie-two-shoes Shirou who Wants to Save Everyone. This is Shirou broken by his ideals who have abandoned them. Shirou who regained his reason to live by acquiring a family and he can be absolutely RUTHLESS in protecting that family.
He wouldn't try to talk or negotiate with Wolkenritter. He would capture one of them, torture the identity of their Master out of them and then kill the book and Hayate.
He wouldn't try to non-lethaly take down Numbers and Jail. He would kill Jail and then hunt down every single Number to prevent Jail's resurrection.
He has Mind of Steel when it comes to protecting his family and is a magi, one who walks with death and does not play around with problems. He Erases them.
That's what would happen if he was allowed free reign and could do whatever he wanted to.

It's just... you are all so Focused on power levels that you miss all the possible drama.
Shirou being God Mode? What would any of his Noble Phantasms do to fix Fate's psyche broken by Precia's treatement? How can he magic Precia and Fate into rebuilding their relationship? How can he save Hayate and Wolkenritter? He can't! All he can do is KILL people. His armory is great at erasing threats and bad guys but not at SAVING people. That's the tragedy of his life, even though he has Avalon for himself, even though he has all those uber powerful weapons all he Wants to do is save people. In the end though he is the only one left standing with corpses of those he couldn't save laying around him.

Lhklan · 2013-04-09, 04:33

@Akiyoshi
You forgot that Kiritsugu can pull a Time Alter. Though I'm pretty sure he won't fight her 1-1. A sniper bullet to the head should do it.

@HK
... I really should ask this: If Archer held onto his ideals until after death, after his execution and the sh*tstorm that his life brought him, what make Shirou give up so easily? Just Sakura's death? Archer lost Illya, Saber, and a lot more thourgh his life.

The long list of people he failed? Same thing with Archer.

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 04:40

@HK

Quote:

... I really should ask this: If Archer held onto his ideals until after death, after his execution and the sh*tstorm that his life brought him, what make Shirou give up so easily? Just Sakura's death? Archer lost Illya, Saber, and a lot more thourgh his life.

The long list of people he failed? Same thing with Archer.

I said there were two posts right?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...73#post4626373

Essentially Shirou BECAME Archer. Archer made a deal with Alaya and became a Counter Guardian in exchange for power to save people.

In this world there is no Gaia or Alaya, this Shirou never even could form that contract but he powered through. He fought and saved people, but as I have already said that brought unwanted attention to him. People who had a grudge, people who wanted to experiment on him and so on. He was elusive, mysterious, clever, he could avoid being attacked and many times people got desperate. They could attack him on a street with civilians around or level the building he was in.

He abandoned his ideals BECAUSE he could not save people. His mere presence or possibility of it brought nothing but death and misery to those around him. The final blow was when he learnt about beings like Emilia, created, butchered and tortured solely to HUNT HIM. He was the SOURCE of their suffering, the reason for it. He was no longer a hero, he was one who only brought death and suffering to those around him.

He was a Counter Guardian without contract, one that could only bring death and no salvation to those around him.

Lhklan · 2013-04-09, 04:46

... I thought we dropped the Emilia thing?

And anyway, did he lose it before or after he came to Nanoha's world? Cause your words gave me the impression that it was before, but now you're saying it's after.

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhklan

... I thought we dropped the Emilia thing?

And anyway, did he lose it before or after he came to Nanoha's world? Cause your words gave me the impression that it was before, but now you're saying it's after.

Well Emilia is his breaking point, the final straw that finally broke him. I needed something... strong that would finally finish him

Shirou lived in Nano for more than 20 years, over that time he grew ruthless and finally broke. Killing Sakura was actually a key point in his "development", being forced to put down his cherished Childhood friend broke something in him. Even though it was years before he reached Kiritsugu's level Sakura's death was the beginning of him growing colder and more ruthless.

Lhklan · 2013-04-09, 04:52

... ... ... *sigh*
Sorry HK, I just... can't do this. You're on your own.
Know that I hope your fic have many readers though.

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhklan

... ... ... *sigh*
Sorry HK, I just... can't do this. You're on your own.
Know that I hope your fic have many readers though.

Well if you have issues then voice them. I develop the story by throwing the premise at people.

One thing I must say, I HAD to do this to Shirou. As it was said Shirou would make a lousy father because of his Hero Complex, the only way to solve it is to Break him. And it adds a chance for lots of heart-warming as him and Fate get closer to each other and heal each other's mental wounds.

Tiresias · 2013-04-09, 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andarkoshi

It's just... you are all so Focused on power levels that you miss all the possible drama.

For the record, I have yet to comment on the power level stuff. I've said it before, but my Suspension of Disbelief already broke when Sakura became In Name Only. And yes, even you're latest explanations failed to convince me.This is Sakura we're talking about - girl would rather kill herself rather than kill others. She resisted the dark impulses for as long as she could, and even when she became Dark Sakura there's still a part of her that gave her enemies chance to kill her so she would die and not harm people anymore.

I'm sorry, but I just can't buy it, I really absolutely can't.

Andarkoshi · 2013-04-09, 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

For the record, I have yet to comment on the power level stuff. I've said it before, but my Suspension of Disbelief already broke when Sakura became In Name Only. And yes, even you're latest explanations failed to convince me.This is Sakura we're talking about - girl would rather kill herself rather than kill others. She resisted the dark impulses for as long as she could, and even when she became Dark Sakura there's still a part of her that gave her enemies chance to kill her so she would die and not harm people anymore.

I'm sorry, but I just can't buy it, I really absolutely can't.

Well it's your choice and I will honour it.

I tried my best to create a believable situation according to what I knew. This Sakura had everything (Shirou) and then it was taken away from her by one person she admired/secretly hated. Dark Sakura did voice Sakura's hatred for Rin because she thought that Rin had everything and Sakura had nothing. While it's true that Sakura was strong willed and resisted, those impulses and thoughts WERE there.

In fact she might have asked Zouken if it was okay to bond with Shirou before she confessed and he agreed... because through his bug spy network he knew how things were between Shirou and Rin. He knew that Sakura would be rejected. Sakura who spent five years growing happier and happier because she had Shirou's friendship.

Kireen · 2013-04-09, 05:21

Thanks for the advice, I didin't think about making the Tsukimura half demons, it works quite well.

As for Shirou he would be the one with less mana among the main cast, but still able to beat the kids thanks to his experience and skill, but he would just be an annoyance for the Wolkenritter since they beat him in booth those aspects, until he takes out the big guns like the broken noble phantams, becoming qute dangerous even for them. The problem however is his body, once he uses too much prana it becomes slower, and once he reaches the critical limit it just stops moving until he recovers enough to start moving again. But at least he can be repaired until the head and the torso section remain intact.

As for the reason why he doesn't use Gae Bolg from the start, it's because he's dealing with childeren at the beginning, and my Shirou is not a mid of steel Shirou, and in the Wolkies case he'll try, but seeing that Vita can walk around and trash things with her heart pierced makes that useless. And also the Wolkies can be revived until the book gets fixed.

As for the linker-core the truth is that i was thinking of him swithcing to a body made through project Fate after A's, and getting one in the process, or getting his soul transfered into an Unison Device-lke body, or heck even a combat cyborg body, if they can have it inside a puppet, they can put it insde something else. In one of my least serious moments i even considered him getting a defective body that doesn't age properly, remaining that of a child (much to Vita amusement), and having him forced to learn Mid-Childan magic if only just to get an adult mode.

2013-04-09, 00:19	Link #37823
Twi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Nasuverse magecraft is far more dangerous and the number of magi are fewer...and Gilgamesh is around with his Anti-world NP. In the Nanohaverse, they have militaries and magical artifacts of doom, along with a mad scientist or experiment gone wrong. Magi walk a path of death in the nasuverse, even as children. See Sakura for reference. In Nanoha...well, Vivid should explain that much. In all honesty, just putting anything from the Nasuverse in the first season of Nanoha is condemning it to a darker theme. In fact, you really want twisted, Fate is the Sakura of the first season. Abusive parent. Wanting something they can't have. Needing to be saved. Shirou would be inclined to murder Precia on principle and then go see someone about healing Alicia. With all the crap Magi do to extend their lives, I know at least one person could get the job done.... __________________

2013-04-09, 00:25	Link #37824
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	It's not really a fair comparison, though, is it? Magic is dying out in Type-MOON, and a closely guarded secret as a result. Its practitioners are its biggest problem, as its full of sociopaths and paranoid fanatics who can't trust one another and more often than not are working against one another despite them all aiming for the same goal. Magic in Nanoha is thriving, however, and doesn't need to be hid, with the research and development of it being far safer. People there are able to cooperate and not need to kill one another. Also, far more dangerous? MGLN is the one that had a nine-year-old girl able to crush an entire city with a single spell. :V __________________

2013-04-09, 00:55	Link #37826
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	I don't know much of the Nasuverse beyon the Fate series but Magic there seems to be a bit more elitist than in the Nanohaverse. Nanohaverse magic is overall more versatile and pwoerfull than Nasuverse magic but some very specific mages or artifacts in the Nasuverse have some insanely hax powers that are limited in use but are very powerfull withing the appropiate conditions. Nanoha can blow up a city but she's no match for a mage-killing bullet made of pulverized ribs ...but at the same time the gun user is far more vulnerable than Nanoha because the guy can't fly, have normal resistances (unlike Nanoha who can smash through entire buildings and still be able to fight evenly), Nanoha surpasses Kiritsugu in pretty much everything but all Kiritsugu needs is a single chance and a good shot to take Nanoha down forever. (kinda like the Avadakedabra spell on Harry Potter, it has poor range, needs aim and is pretty much just a lame green small ray ....but it has the power to get across any kind of magical defense and is a sure-kill against any target that gets hit). Oh yeah, that's a another detail, most of Nasuverse's more effective opponents tend to play dirty a lot ...or at least they try to exploit and abuse their few hax abilites as much as they can. So, unless it's about very by-the-book honorable characters like Saber, Diarmuid or Gilgamesh (yeah, the guy is an insufferable egocentric dick but i give him credit for not cheating, he always faces his opponents frontface xD) you can't expect Nanohaverse character to fight a fair battle xDU __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2013-04-09, 01:02	Link #37827
Tiresias Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00) Age: 37	Nasu magic conflicts with Nanoha from the very basics, no thanks to the importance of Mystery in the former. It's the reason they are elitist, avoids technology unless necessary, and doesn't cooperate. __________________

2013-04-09, 02:30	Link #37829
bhl88 Otaku Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Unseen Horizon	Theres plenty of Nanoha vs Nasu battles which are one sided: - Gilgamesh vs Lieze Twins (Gil wins with not trying) - Gilgamesh vs Nanoha (Nanoha Ea'd) - Berserker vs Aces, Wolks, those two guys, Rein Zwei (utterly annihilated) - Archer vs Signum (battle was not continued) - Shirou vs Riot Force 6 (not continued) - Shirou vs Precia (Shirou failed) - Shirou vs Chrono (Chrono won) It would depend on you, really. __________________ OS-tan Collections (temporary): https://discord.gg/Hv2rBs3

2013-04-08, 23:04	Link #37822
Filraen Big Damn Lurker Join Date: Feb 2011	I'd rather say that, while weaker, Nanohaverse magic (in particulat Mid-style) is developed and well-documented to be safer than Nasu-style magic. (Please note I'm not saying anything on how reckless can be practicioners of magic.)

2013-04-09, 00:29	Link #37825
Lhklan The Unpronounceable Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Clock Tower	Nanohaverse magic have the power, the ease to use on their side. Nasuverse magic got the lethality and hax as recompense. And the difference between top tier mage and common one in Nasu are more visible than in Nanoha. But that's just me.

2013-04-09, 02:42	Link #37830
Tiresias Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00) Age: 37	Were those references to a fanfic? __________________

2013-04-09, 03:18	Link #37831
Andarkoshi Resident Tentacle Monster Join Date: Apr 2013	Btw. I was accused of making Shirou go God Mode and solving all problems with his powers. While I do agree that he needs to be Nerfed (I'm working on it) you are forgetting one important issue. His mindset. This is not Goodie-two-shoes Shirou who Wants to Save Everyone. This is Shirou broken by his ideals who have abandoned them. Shirou who regained his reason to live by acquiring a family and he can be absolutely RUTHLESS in protecting that family. He wouldn't try to talk or negotiate with Wolkenritter. He would capture one of them, torture the identity of their Master out of them and then kill the book and Hayate. He wouldn't try to non-lethaly take down Numbers and Jail. He would kill Jail and then hunt down every single Number to prevent Jail's resurrection. He has Mind of Steel when it comes to protecting his family and is a magi, one who walks with death and does not play around with problems. He Erases them. That's what would happen if he was allowed free reign and could do whatever he wanted to. It's just... you are all so Focused on power levels that you miss all the possible drama. Shirou being God Mode? What would any of his Noble Phantasms do to fix Fate's psyche broken by Precia's treatement? How can he magic Precia and Fate into rebuilding their relationship? How can he save Hayate and Wolkenritter? He can't! All he can do is KILL people. His armory is great at erasing threats and bad guys but not at SAVING people. That's the tragedy of his life, even though he has Avalon for himself, even though he has all those uber powerful weapons all he Wants to do is save people. In the end though he is the only one left standing with corpses of those he couldn't save laying around him. Last edited by Andarkoshi; 2013-04-09 at 04:09.

2013-04-09, 04:33	Link #37832
Lhklan The Unpronounceable Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Clock Tower	@Akiyoshi You forgot that Kiritsugu can pull a Time Alter. Though I'm pretty sure he won't fight her 1-1. A sniper bullet to the head should do it. @HK ... I really should ask this: If Archer held onto his ideals until after death, after his execution and the sh*tstorm that his life brought him, what make Shirou give up so easily? Just Sakura's death? Archer lost Illya, Saber, and a lot more thourgh his life. The long list of people he failed? Same thing with Archer.

2013-04-09, 04:46	Link #37834
Lhklan The Unpronounceable Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Clock Tower	... I thought we dropped the Emilia thing? And anyway, did he lose it before or after he came to Nanoha's world? Cause your words gave me the impression that it was before, but now you're saying it's after.

2013-04-09, 04:52	Link #37836
Lhklan The Unpronounceable Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Clock Tower	... ... ... sigh Sorry HK, I just... can't do this. You're on your own. Know that I hope your fic have many readers though.

2013-04-09, 05:21	Link #37840
Kireen Uchuu Kaizoku Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: From Italy	Thanks for the advice, I didin't think about making the Tsukimura half demons, it works quite well. As for Shirou he would be the one with less mana among the main cast, but still able to beat the kids thanks to his experience and skill, but he would just be an annoyance for the Wolkenritter since they beat him in booth those aspects, until he takes out the big guns like the broken noble phantams, becoming qute dangerous even for them. The problem however is his body, once he uses too much prana it becomes slower, and once he reaches the critical limit it just stops moving until he recovers enough to start moving again. But at least he can be repaired until the head and the torso section remain intact. As for the reason why he doesn't use Gae Bolg from the start, it's because he's dealing with childeren at the beginning, and my Shirou is not a mid of steel Shirou, and in the Wolkies case he'll try, but seeing that Vita can walk around and trash things with her heart pierced makes that useless. And also the Wolkies can be revived until the book gets fixed. As for the linker-core the truth is that i was thinking of him swithcing to a body made through project Fate after A's, and getting one in the process, or getting his soul transfered into an Unison Device-lke body, or heck even a combat cyborg body, if they can have it inside a puppet, they can put it insde something else. In one of my least serious moments i even considered him getting a defective body that doesn't age properly, remaining that of a child (much to Vita amusement), and having him forced to learn Mid-Childan magic if only just to get an adult mode.