[Manga] Naruto Chapter 627 Discussion Thread

[Casshern]

They can fight for who becomes the next hokage trololol

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think we don't share the same definition of creative is all.

Apparently not. There were hints that Itachi was not a true villain and had a hidden agenda from the very moment he was introduced. Kisame detected a concern in Itachi's voice for the village. Kakashi didn't understand why Itachi didn't just kill him in their battle. There were subtle hints but I didn't expect Kishimoto to make a 180° turn in Itachi's meaning to the series.

Certainly the average person doesn't identify Itachi's actions with heroism. Who among us if forced in to the situation would kill our entire family and closest friends for the sake of our community? But once his true mission and purpose were revealed it made the relationship between Itachi and Sasuke more complex than a simple family revenge story (e.g. big brother goes rogue or hates his little brother from the beginning and the sibling rivalry becomes a conflict between mortal enemies).

I like Itachi as a character simply because he's a stoic badass. I don't think the sudden revelations about him were all that believable but it was a nice change of pace.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by JustRob

He blatantly said that he wants to protect the village
now.

He said (in the translation i read): "i won't let this village and my brother be wasted!". That does not equal "protecting the village". It clearly implies that the reason he wants to do this is because of Itachi and not for the village itself.

Such words can mean a lot of things. One might want to protect a thing as a property, for example if Sasuke wants to rule it by force. Or he might want to protect it from being destroyed because of his brother but he doesn't want to have anything with it afterwards. He may even want to save it because he wants to speak with Naruto like Madara spoke with Hashirama, and then decide the course of his actions based on that. Just the way he talked with the hokages and made his decision here he might want to talk with Naruto and then make his next decision. By now Sasuke has come very close to the situation in which Madara was: even if Naruto wanted Sasuke to become the next hokage the village (and by that i mean even people like Shikamaru who could be viewed as a modern Tobirama if you want since his actions are usually based on rational thinking instead of strong emotions) would oppose that. Madara could not trust the village even if he trusted Hashirama, he was paranoid, however in Sasuke's case he has a good reason to not trust a village that ordered the extermination of his clan, so him not trusting the village despite he trusts Naruto makes sense.

Originally Posted by JustRob

They virtually have no reason whatsoever to fight anymore.

Sure now it's hard to come up with an idea that leads to a big fight to the death. However it might also be a more friendly fight in the end. Something that Naruto talked about: that they can truly understand each other only by fighting, or something like that i don't remember clearly, it was when they met last time and Naruto had a little speech there. Maybe we will have the funny situation where it will be actually Naruto to propose a fight if Sasuke tells him that he just wants to leave and never return to konoha again It might be that he will challenge Sasuke in a funny way, as a comedic relief, saying that the last time Sasuke won and he can't allow things finishing that way. But the fight itself will be like a long conversation, like the fight they had at the valley of the end. Remember that during that fight even if Naruto failed but Sasuke changed his mind about killing Naruto. I could even imagine Naruto coming to a conclusion that if he suicides that can be a good point in his favor in their argument, and then Sasuke has to use the rinnegan to actually resurrect Naruto, then Sasuke calmly tells Naruto that it was not a good argument and Naruto must come up with something better than this cheap way winning a debate, then they continue their fight and conversation

The question is if the story needs a fight to the death or is such a "friendly" fight enough. We will be after the war, the war will take things to the extremes already when it comes to deaths/blood and emotions and despair and epicness, etc., so i think that instead of trying to have a Naruto vs Sasuke that tries to be better/more than the finale of this war and fail at it we could have a more "friendly" battle that is also more of a conversation. Of course that wouldn't mean that their battle wouldn't have moves where spectator jounins/kages could shit their pants seeing the level of power

[thermopyle]

<3 Tobirama

No regrets baby.

[550103401]

Assuming Sasuke is telling the truth about protecting the village, and that he is alright with Naruto's outlook, then I expect the order of events to go something like this:

1) Sasuke + Naruto + Oro (4 hokage) vs. Madara + Obito. It ends with Obito/Kakashi fb
2) With Madara out of the way, Oro + 4 hokage vs. Sasuke + Naruto.
3) Naruto talk no jutsus everyone into living peacefully. GG

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i totally agree that it was a retcon and that it doesnt make perfect sense, but i wouldn't call it dogshit. itachi wanted sasuke to get stronger for several reasons. and since the only way for an uchiha to get that strong is mental anguish, itachi put sasuke through a lot of it. also, he showed him what the MS eyes were capable of in the process, like he did to/for kakashi. but i agree it was a bit overboard. itachi was clearly meant to be a villain at those times

What makes it lack so little sense is that Itachi should know from personal experience that embracing hatred and revenge is NOT the best way to grow strong. Itachi was a man of peace and grew up wanting to preserve peace. And while maintaining this peace loving attitude, he managed to become the strongest member of his clan at the age of 13 (second only to obito). Sasuke would have had PLENTY of suffering just from seeing his clan wiped out by his brother; he didn't need Itachi to rub salt into the wounds. Their are numerous characters in the history and present of kohona who managed to become incredibly strong without embracing hatred. Without Itachi's manipulations, Sasuke could have been kept on the path of justice, rather than thrown down the path of hatred. Not to mention that by messing with sasuke the way he did, he was bound to leave deep emotional scars that would never heal and probably mess up sasuke for the rest of his life; Sasuke was gonna have enough problems as it was, but it Iatchi was determined to make them even worse. In essence, by driving sasuke with hatred, he in fact actually jeopardized his own goal of making sure Sasuke would be able to have a good future. It was an idiotic plan from the very beginning

i still dont find sasuke's revenge path to be illogical. konoha made his brother murder his clan and then lead a life of self-torture and sacrifice. all th while, everyone in konoha enjoyed the peace itachi allowed while believing him to be a traitor and serial killer. granted that was the plan, but i can imagine being in sasuke's shoes and wanting revenge, particulary against the elders. the 'insane gene' of the uchiha accounts for sasuke being maniacal much like obito was after rin's death

Yes it WAS illogical because it flew in the face of everything Itachi had suffered and died for.Itachi was forced into a terrible situation but he tried to make the best of it by trying to preserve peace and his brother's life. He wanted to AVOID a war and he wanted Kohona to remain in existence as the peaceful village that he loved, and he wanted Sasuke to be PART of kohona, and to live out a good life in kohona. THAT is what Itachi desired, that was basically his unspoken last request. Itachi suffered greatly, but the ONE saving grace was that he would have preserved the peace and insured Sasuke's future. By trying to destroy kohona, Sasuke in fact spit in Itachi's face. With Kohona destroyed and Sasuke consumed by his own hatred, Itachi would have suffered for NOTHING.

Hack when it comes down to it, these most recent past chapters change NOTHING about what sasuke knew. Everything he learned from these flashbacks doesn't really change the story as he knew it. Kohona existed to end the conflicts between clans, Madara messed with that dream, this led to ongoing tension between the clans, which resulted in Itachi's situation, which was in part about having to make tough decisions with those that would threaten the peaceful way of life. Why is sasuke NOW deciding to stop madara? What did that flashback tell him that he didn't already know? Sasuke's change in attidue is logical, but the path he is now on was the logical path from the very beginning.

[Kazekage_Gaara]

Heya guys, been a long time since I posted but I really wanted to come back to finally start discussing some of the recent chapters with you awesome folks.

In terms of Itachi completely being retconned due to his popularity, I won't argue with it. However, I think we can actively try to defend his story in addition to breaking it down and pointing out every flaw to try to make more sense of the situation. Itachi using his parents death as mental torture to push Sasuke to improve his power is not too beyond reasoning, at least in the context of the story's universe. Look at Gaara and his father *shrugs*. If we use the fact that Itachi should know from personal experience that hatred and revenge is not the best way to grow strong, I don't really think it's valid. Itachi didn't grow up with the fact that his family was murdered, he still had his parents up until that night. Itachi chose the village over his clan, and even his father respected his decision before he got cut down.

I don't really think Itachi ever planned for Orochimaru to come around and basically use Sasuke's hatred (which Itachi built) against him. If everything went to plan without Orochimaru being around, who knows what would have actually happened. Regardless of what Sasuke's strength was, he still wouldn't have defeated Itachi. He probably would have become a hero that killed the Konoha traitor who slaughtered the clan, etc. The end goal.

As for Sasuke's revenge plot being completely "useless", we gotta keep in mind he's only 16 years old. As Itachi described, Sasuke was a blank canvas and was practically manipulated by Obito to go against Konoha. Did Sasuke go against Itachi's wishes? Yes, but only because of the conclusion he came to after he heard Obito's version of the massacre. I don't think it's completely out of this world to see someone change their mind about things. Don't we make irrational decisions based on emotions sometimes? Couple this with the fact that Uchiha "loved too much" and it's not a far stretch. Was Hashirama's story useless? No, not at all. Sasuke did learn a lot from his story. He viewed Konoha as the enemy that basically slaughtered the Uchiha like cattle after they attempted to rebel. However, he finds out that Hashirama and Tobirama did indeed have compassion for members of the Uchiha clan. Heck, Hashirama's "best" friend is Madara. Sasuke basically had already killed the man who had the biggest say, Danzo.

The most important scene, at least to me, was how Sasuke described Itachi as the one who perfectly inherited the Will of Fire to Hashirama. Sasuke didn't truly ever understand that will, because he was stuck on the path of revenge his entire life. After he heard the story, though, he understood why the village was so important. Sure I'm sure in school he simply learned that the village was formed to create peace. However, it wasn't really ever directly related to his current situation. Plus I doubt he ever heard personal stories (Hashirama himself) of how the wars were before Konoha was formed. Itachi confirmed the truth of the massacre when they met up again. Itachi confessing that he'd love Sasuke no matter what path he chose was just as important. It was practically closure for his revenge path right at that moment. Sasuke felt as if Konoha took away the last family member he had left the moment they ordered him to massacre the clan. It's definitely not illogical for him to think the way he did. Now he's chosen to finally protect what Itachi gave his life for, instead of revenge.

In the end I just think we gotta keep our own world logic at bay when it comes to analyzing this type of stuff. I mean look at Naruto, Sasuke has tried to kill him MULTIPLE times yet he still wishes to save him. You can pretty much discard a lot of the plot if you just can't accept the logic of it now.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

What makes it lack so little sense is that Itachi should know from personal experience that embracing hatred and revenge is NOT the best way to grow strong. Itachi was a man of peace and grew up wanting to preserve peace. And while maintaining this peace loving attitude, he managed to become the strongest member of his clan at the age of 13 (second only to obito). Sasuke would have had PLENTY of suffering just from seeing his clan wiped out by his brother; he didn't need Itachi to rub salt into the wounds. Their are numerous characters in the history and present of kohona who managed to become incredibly strong without embracing hatred. Without Itachi's manipulations, Sasuke could have been kept on the path of justice, rather than thrown down the path of hatred. Not to mention that by messing with sasuke the way he did, he was bound to leave deep emotional scars that would never heal and probably mess up sasuke for the rest of his life; Sasuke was gonna have enough problems as it was, but it Iatchi was determined to make them even worse. In essence, by driving sasuke with hatred, he in fact actually jeopardized his own goal of making sure Sasuke would be able to have a good future. It was an idiotic plan from the very beginning

you're forgetting that sasuke was no itachi. sasuke was a late bloomer and his major strength increases were due to orochimaru and itachi, not of his own accord. itachi knew that powerful ninja like orochimaru, danzo and akatsuki members would be gunning for sasuke, so he had to ensure that sasuke got powerful enough to protect himself from these people as soon as possible. you're making a lot of points that i agree with, but they are mostly irrelevent. i never said it was a good plan. itachi himself admits that he was wrong. i'm just explaining that the plan wasn't dogshit as was said before. torturing sasuke is basically explained as a means to make him strong in a quick amount of time because sasuke was a much slower learner and developer than itachi. i never said it was right and itachi himself says it was wrong as well as a failure (although sasuke did get incredibly strong due to these things. he got 3 tomoe thanks to itachi professing that he 'kill' his closest friend of naruto, and he got MS as a result of all the mental distress he absorbed from itachi's life and last battle, although obito gets credit for sasuke's MS as well since it was his revelation that pushed him over the line)

Yes it WAS illogical because it flew in the face of everything Itachi had suffered and died for.Itachi was forced into a terrible situation but he tried to make the best of it by trying to preserve peace and his brother's life. He wanted to AVOID a war and he wanted Kohona to remain in existence as the peaceful village that he loved, and he wanted Sasuke to be PART of kohona, and to live out a good life in kohona. THAT is what Itachi desired, that was basically his unspoken last request. Itachi suffered greatly, but the ONE saving grace was that he would have preserved the peace and insured Sasuke's future. By trying to destroy kohona, Sasuke in fact spit in Itachi's face. With Kohona destroyed and Sasuke consumed by his own hatred, Itachi would have suffered for NOTHING.

capitalizing random words doesn't equate to you making a point... yes, these are itachi's will. again what you've said i agree with and it is mostly irrelevant. believe it or not, sasuke is his own person. sasuke's revenge arc was actually his most independent time. now he is simply going with the flow and complying to itachi's will (the will of fire) despite all the insanity that has happened.

Hack when it comes down to it, these most recent past chapters change NOTHING about what sasuke knew. Everything he learned from these flashbacks doesn't really change the story as he knew it. Kohona existed to end the conflicts between clans, Madara messed with that dream, this led to ongoing tension between the clans, which resulted in Itachi's situation, which was in part about having to make tough decisions with those that would threaten the peaceful way of life. Why is sasuke NOW deciding to stop madara? What did that flashback tell him that he didn't already know? Sasuke's change in attidue is logical, but the path he is now on was the logical path from the very beginning.

so it's logical to want to preserve and protect the village that forced his brother to kill his family and live a life of shame and sacrifice while everyone else reaped the benefits? i think you must find it impossible to put yourself in sasuke's shoes. also, a lot can be said for actually meeting a person as opposed to hearing about them. instead of hearing about how the senju and the village mistreated the uchiha, meeting hashirama and tobirama cast the clans' relationship in a totally new light. also, to say that nothing was learned from the hashirama/madara flashback is just plain incorrect. it provided a lot of exposition about the senju/uchiha blood feud. sasuke also learned about the uchiha insanity gene which is quite important and puts things in perspective about his strong emotional reactions

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Apparently not. There were hints that Itachi was not a true villain [...]

I don't think you understand what I'm arguing about in the first place. I didn't say anything about the revelation that Itachi was a double agent, I'm talking about the execution of this characterization, the way people react to it, why that is so and the reason people find logical that Sasuke should follow Itachi's path just because he wanted him to.

[xellos2099]

Now I rewatch the old episodes where Danzo die, during his flashback there was an Uchiha along with the group with Tobirama, I assume him to Uchiha Kagami

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

Now I rewatch the old episodes where Danzo die, during his flashback there was an Uchiha along with the group with Tobirama, I assume him to Uchiha Kagami

That is Uchiha Kagami. His appearance is the exact same as from this chapter.

[550103401]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I like Itachi as a character simply because he's a stoic badass

More like he's a deluded psychopath. How else could you describe killing your entire neighborhood so ruthlessly? He had his head in the clouds and had no empathy for anyone besides his brother, whom he manipulated for the years thereafter. Ultimately he knew that what he had done was unnatural and wrong and sought his own demise at the hands of his brother. Maybe he knew that he had no leg to stand on and so ran from Sasuke rather than talking to him straight. When Itachi confronted Naruto he saw true compassion and acknowledged the strength of his character that he so lacked. With that he practically said "You help him because I can't" and passed all of that emotional baggage that he troubled Sasuke with onto Naruto. So with that said he's just a bad-ass.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by 550103401

More like he's a deluded psychopath. How else could you describe killing your entire neighborhood so ruthlessly? He had his head in the clouds and had no empathy for anyone besides his brother, whom he manipulated for the years thereafter. Ultimately he knew that what he had done was unnatural and wrong and sought his own demise at the hands of his brother. Maybe he knew that he had no leg to stand on and so ran from Sasuke rather than talking to him straight. When Itachi confronted Naruto he saw true compassion and acknowledged the strength of his character that he so lacked. With that he practically said "You help him because I can't" and passed all of that emotional baggage that he troubled Sasuke with onto Naruto. So with that said he's just a bad-ass.

stoic: one who is free from passion, unmoved by joy or grief, and submits without complaint to unavoidable necessity.

that describes itachi quite well actually. funny also that it was itachi who turned sasuke around and not naruto at all. i think you are lacking quite a lot of information concerning itachi. hiruzen himself said itachi thought as a hokage when he was only 7 years old. that is pretty much the farthest removed from 'head in the clouds' as someone could be

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

stoic: one who is free from passion, unmoved by joy or grief, and submits without complaint to unavoidable necessity.

that describes itachi quite well actually. funny also that it was itachi who turned sasuke around and not naruto at all. i think you are lacking quite a lot of information concerning itachi. hiruzen himself said itachi thought as a hokage when he was only 7 years old. that is pretty much the farthest removed from 'head in the clouds' as someone could be

Hashirama turned Sasuke around, not Itachi. Sasuke's last words to Itachi were that he would always exist to destroy Konoha no matter what.

[Cookie-Monster]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Hashirama turned Sasuke around, not Itachi. Sasuke's last words to Itachi were that he would always exist to destroy Konoha no matter what.

True, but during that encounter it was Itachi who we could say had the "last word".

Sasuke said hed destroy konoha no matter what. Then Itachi kisses him and says hell love him no matter what. And we see Sasuke's anguished look. Then during the latest chapter, we get the double page with Sasuke remembering all the things "hugs and kisses" Itachi had said to him. Hashirama + Itachi worked in tandem you could say. Neither would have swayed Sasuke alone.

However its quite possible that even if no Naruto existed at all, Sasuke would still be swayed by Harishama/Itachi. Naruto's impact on changing sasuke so far seems nill.




On a side note, I wonder if Madara's flip-flop is a sign of foreshadowing to what sasuke will do.

Harishama offers to give his life for Madara, and Madara finally sees the light and gives up his hatred. Then later he mysteriously rejects it again and turns back to psycho uchiha.

Might that be a sign of what sasuke will do ? Embrace konoha to give the story new intrigue, and then later on simply turn psycho uchiha again in order to wrap up the Naurto-vs-Sasuke storyline? (Explained ofcourse with some flimsy deus ex machina like the 'hatred sprouting chakra' )

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Hashirama turned Sasuke around, not Itachi. Sasuke's last words to Itachi were that he would always exist to destroy Konoha no matter what.

That was an important speech for Sasuke but it was Itachi who completely changed his thinking recently, or it's better to say that he switched on Sasuke's brain, so Sasuke began to actually think about the world instead of just running around like a crazy idiot who just wants to kill everybody. When he killed Danzou he didn't think at all, he was in a state of mindless rage. So before he met with Itachi he wouldn't listen to whatever he was told, he would just go on with his revenge thing. He stabbed Karin to death and when she didn't die he asked Sakura to finish the job, now he's apologizing to Karin and that has much more to do with Itachi than Hashirama. As i wrote back then Itachi's role was to give back Sasuke his lost mind Otherwise the only thing Naruto or anyone else could have done to Sasuke is to kill him, as you could see in his last encounter with team 7, they tried to talk to him in different ways but it was all pointless because his obsession shut down his mind and he became just a killing machine.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by 550103401

Assuming Sasuke is telling the truth about protecting the village, and that he is alright with Naruto's outlook, then I expect the order of events to go something like this:

1) Sasuke + Naruto + Oro (4 hokage) vs. Madara + Obito. It ends with Obito/Kakashi fb
2) With Madara out of the way, Oro + 4 hokage vs. Sasuke + Naruto.
3) Naruto talk no jutsus everyone into living peacefully. GG

Oro isn't controlling Hashirama.

[DarthDestroiar]

The REAL Hokages are going to fight thats good... But Karin... What the hell... Sasuke almost killed her with a crazy look on his face and now everything is fine, like nothing happened. And i dont like to see Oro all goody goody.

[550103401]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

stoic: one who is free from passion, unmoved by joy or grief, and submits without complaint to unavoidable necessity.

that describes itachi quite well actually.

Psychopath: a person having a character disorder distinguished by amoral or antisocial behavior without feelings of remorse.

If by turned around you mean that he spun Sasuke in circles, manipulating the poor kid his entire life then yes, that was Itachi. He betrayed his brother's trust in the worst way imaginable, and then made Sasuke look at his dead parents and spurred him on to seek revenge. All of which led Sasuke down the road of depression and detachment. So you're saying that Itachi turned him around again? Great, it was he who caused the mess in the first place. I'll admit, so far Naruto has accomplished nothing, or very little at most, when it comes to helping Sasuke. But it needs to be mentioned that Itachi placed his trust in Naruto to eventually save Sasuke. Why? Because Itachi wasn't going to do it himself. All that time he wanted Sasuke to punish him for committing those horrible acts.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

funny also that it was itachi who turned sasuke around and not naruto at all. i think you are lacking quite a lot of information concerning itachi.

We have different opinions on how we view an emotionless person who is willing to kill his neighborhood. You define his lack of emotion as stoic, and I don't.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

hiruzen himself said itachi thought as a hokage when he was only 7 years old. that is pretty much the farthest removed from 'head in the clouds' as someone could be

Regarding the head in the clouds bit, Itachi can have all the noble ideals of a hokage, but then his actions don't reflect those ideals. The ends didn't justify the means; killing your neighbors to protect your neighbors? What? That's completely removed from reality.

And if massacring one's own clan is Hiruzen's idea of what a hokage should do then he's just as misguided as Itachi. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Reminds me of the night of the long knives where Hitler killed off everyone who posed a political threat to him. Afterwards he spun it to sound like it was a necessary evil. Itachi, Danzo, and even Hiruzen and the two old bats are guilty of the same perversion of justice.

[Midnight Commander]

Itachi feels emotion, he is just very good at containing it, and acting in spite of it. Still, there are rare occasions where he does express emotion (e.g. 1, 2, 3); and one of those rare occasions is why Sasuke was left alive during the massacre. I think most of your points(which I understand) are caused by the retcons and the imperfect patchwork that causes the storyline to have some rough edges. Some of the explainations for these plot devleopments just aren't that believable despite them being possible.