[Manga] Naruto Chapter 628 Discussion Thread (btw, no Naruto next week)

[Cookie-Monster]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

Cookie-Monster...wth are you talking about? If anything Sasuke's victories are FAR more impressive then Naruto's...let's do a quick recap.

Naruto vs Obito...result is a draw, and naruto had the help of kakashi, gai, and bee.

Naruto vs Pain...result is a victory because he had the strongest ninja village fighting with him...the entire village at that.

Naruto vs Kakuzu...result is a victory, with the help of Kakashi and several leaf ninja.


Sasuke vs danzo...result is a victory with no help.

Sasuke vs deidara....result is a victory with no help.

Basically the list goes on...Sasuke beats all of his opponents without any help 95 percent of the time, Naruto does not have 1 single marquee win under his belt that didn't require some sort of help, to say his resume of opponents is better then Sasuke's is absolutely ludicrous.

I honestly don't know why everyone thinks Naruto is so far ahead of sasuke now, naruto couldn't beat tobi with the help of 3 kage level fighters....Do you honestly think Naruto is on some God level? Lmao, that must make tobi the strongest being to ever live then. cmon now...the proof is in the pudding.

You make some good points, but I disagree with your "received help in fight" as a yardstick.

Naruto receiving help is irrelevant. He didn't received that help because he needed it. He received it because his whole motto is "team-work" (and quite often those others are merely a hindarance to him). You also seem to be forgetting how often sasuke received help from those around him. He was literally about to die from Mizukages acid (even susano was melting) until zetsu and tobi rescued him. Or Sasuke/Itachi's fight with Kabuto. Sasuke was utterley bewildered as how to fight kabuto. If Itachi wasn't there sasuke would have been Kabuto's sex slave.

The other point is that you misunderstand what I was saying. I was not saying Naruto has always been stronger than Sasuke. Im saying at this point in time, Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. The manga has been going on for years and years, and throughout it was pretty obvious that there was a cycling of Sasuke and Naruto's progress ahead of each other. They were receiving power ups at different times and were constantly overtaking each other.

In pre-chuunin days, Sasuke was stronger than naruto.
Then under Jiraya's guidance, naruto overtakes sasuke and saves him from Gaara.
Then under orochimaru, sasuke progresses to cursed mark lvl 2 , draws even with naruto again (and they fight to a stalemate)
Rinse repeat over and over

While at some points in the manga, it was often unclear as to who was the stronger, this ambiguity was resolved after the huge powerups, and it was pretty clear who would win in a fight. Sasuke unlocking his MS and later getting EMS were a huge leap in power for him and Naruto was clearly weaker than him for a lot of that time. Even Naruto's sage mode would have been inferior to MS and would have arguably lost. But now Naruto's progress combined with him finally gaining the trust and willing tactical assistance of the Kyuubi has taken him to a whole different level. Naruto would utterly obliterate Sasuke if they fought right now. And as others have pointed out, hes shortly due to get another power up from his dad.

So yes, at this point in time, I do think Naruto is much stronger than Sasuke.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

I've been a member for almost 2 years, I think time has spoken.

EXACTLY Pain had already fought all of Konoha by the time Naruto showed up with his toad army, with sage reserves prepared, with inside information on all of Pains jutsu, and you know what...He still lost. If it wasn't for Hinata (who you called worthless) he would have been captured right then and there. Thank you for proving my point.

Idk if anybody's ever mentioned it, but also, Naruto was only fighting 1 path of pein, while Jiraiya fought all 6. I'm pretty sure pein was low on chakra or something after using his jutsu to destroy the village and couldn't use all 6 paths. Kinda makes me think Pein was on a similar level of Madara and Hashirama, he destroyed Naruto and Bee in seconds (after he was revived), and I'm not amused how itachi defeated him, Kishi just needed an excuse to get rid of pein.




Off topic, but seriously no chapter this week (April 28 - May 4)? There was a chapter last week, where absolutely nothing happened, literally nothing, and the week before that was no chapter... I mean... come on...

[milan kyuubi]

If it wasn't for Hinata (who you called worthless) he would have been captured right then and there.

Actually the outcome would be the same if any other (main) character was in Hinata's place.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

Idk if anybody's ever mentioned it, but also, Naruto was only fighting 1 path of pein, while Jiraiya fought all 6. I'm pretty sure pein was low on chakra or something after using his jutsu to destroy the village and couldn't use all 6 paths.

naruto fought all 6 paths of pain...

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

naruto fought all 6 paths of pain...

I don't remember it -_-

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I don't remember it -_-

Happy to help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs2Vqb1SWp4

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

Naruto receiving help is irrelevant. He didn't received that help because he needed it.

You're doing the same thing than the person you're arguing with.
Chiyo and Sakura saved him from Itachi's Genjutsu, Kakashi, Yamato, his dad, his mother and Killer Bee saved him from the Kyubi, Kakashi saved him from Deidara, Kakashi and Yamato saved him from Kakuzu, his clones managed well against the two Edo-Kage instead of being instantly defeated because they were saved by Gaara and Dodai. Gai, Kakashi and Bee saved him several times against Obito, Gai saved him from Madara, Ino, Bee, Neji and Hinata saved him from the Juubi.
All those instance save for the first would have seen Naruto dead if not for the help he received.

edit : And while Naruto did fight the 6 paths he didn't fight them at the same time, fortunately the most dangerous path was on cooldown because he had leveled Konoha before Naruto got there.

[Sasheks]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I don't remember it -_-

He did fight all six paths, but you were right on most accounts. Pain indeed wasted a lot of chakra fighting the whole of Konoha and leveling it to the ground. Plus Pain's secrets were handed to Naruto. Had he been in Jiraiya's place, I'm not so sure he would have fought so well.

Not to mention that Naruto actually gave up during the fight and succumbed to the Kyuubi's hatred.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

Idk if anybody's ever mentioned it, but also, Naruto was only fighting 1 path of pein, while Jiraiya fought all 6

Oh it's been mentioned countless times in countless threads, but some people refuse to face reality : /
Naruto never fought all 6 simultaneously as Jiraiya did; there was always one or more conveniently missing elements in Pein's perfect teamwork setup. Pein was also intending to kill Jiraiya, not Naruto.

[Cookie-Monster]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You're doing the same thing than the person you're arguing with.
Chiyo and Sakura saved him from Itachi's Genjutsu, Kakashi, Yamato, his dad, his mother and Killer Bee saved him from the Kyubi, Kakashi saved him from Deidara, Kakashi and Yamato saved him from Kakuzu, his clones managed well against the two Edo-Kage instead of being instantly defeated because they were saved by Gaara and Dodai. Gai, Kakashi and Bee saved him several times against Obito, Gai saved him from Madara, Ino, Bee, Neji and Hinata saved him from the Juubi.
All those instance save for the first would have seen Naruto dead if not for the help he received.

edit : And while Naruto did fight the 6 paths he didn't fight them at the same time, fortunately the most dangerous path was on cooldown because he had leveled Konoha before Naruto got there.

Your right. I got caught up in his logic. But I still stand by my original point. When and how often someone "received help" is irrelevant to the question of who is stronger between sasuke/naruto at different times in the manga, simply because the the circumstances and opponents varied too wildly. Even the identity of the opponent is not the end-all-be-all. Opponents merely provide a chance to showcase new power-ups. And the general trend of the manga seems to clearly be phases of Naruto and Sasuke leap-frogging each other every time one of them gets a big power-up.

As a side question, does anyone know what Naruto's situation is now with his vulnerability to Genjutsu? Now that hes working with Kyuubi so nicely, is he immune to genjutsu? since kyuubi can simply snap him back into reality? I remember Bee saying something about cooperating with a bijuu allows it to "disturb your chakra" so that you can get released from the genjutsu.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Why are u guys even arguing about the comparison in battles? Its about a point that has to be made.

Revenge is bad (Sasuke found out the truth and suffered greatly because of it)
With help you can accomplish alot more (Taka and Hebi.. because if Sasuke was alone he'd definetly would've been killed by Killerbee for example... Naruto wins most of the times with help)

Even though Sasuke intends to end the war and to protect the village it doesnt mean a teamwork like before is gonna happen. May i remind u of the all time famous series of Dragonball Z. Goku (Naruto) and Vegeta (Sasuke) who have fought many times against a common foe but only nearing the end of the series as a true team.

Vegeta eventually wanted to protect the earth. He lived on it. But at the same time when his ambition for more power came close (Majin) he didnt seem to care. Who knows... Sasuke may follow in the same pattern as soon as the Uchiha Clan or Itachi gets involved in future events.
Madara being the final opponent? Yes... possible.. but what if he or someone else happens to summon the son of (with the doujutsu and ancester of the Uchiha) the Rikkodou Senin?

The series can end quickly... but they can still stretch much longer.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Why are u guys even arguing about the comparison in battles?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. It's been quite a while but there was a time when you did the very same, and quite regularly. Nearly every few posts of yours was essentially a complaint, displaying a power-up list comparing Naruto and Sasuke, and arguing your dissatisfaction with how Naruto looked in comparison to Sasuke in power, as well as their battles. There were also usually complaints about why such a noticable difference in power had to exist, but now since the difference in power is apparently in Naruto's favor I guess its existence is a non-issue : /

[Sasukemaru]

I agree with most of what you said Cookie-Monster regarding Naruto/Sasuke leap frogging each other in power throughout the series.

What I don't agree with is him being so much more powerful then Sasuke that Sasuke needs another power up.

Sasuke's ems hasn't been showcased 1 time, while Naruto's new powers have pretty much dominated the manga recently.

So instead of assuming to know Sasuke's ems, let's focus on Naruto seeing we have a body of work to work with.

I can't see current Naruto fairing significantly better against the 5 kage than ms sasuke did, I also don't see current Naruto steam rolling danzo given the same situation ms sasuke had fighting him.

The point im trying to make is this, we know what current Naruto can do very well...and although he is obviously stronger then ms sasuke, i think ms sasuke still has the tools to give current naruto a fight without being completely obliterated. Now that sasuke has ems, he has become even stronger...so im not inclined to believe the difference in their current power is vast or even very noticeable..

If the manga spent the pasy year or however long it's been putting sasuke's ems on the fore front, and keeping naruto's new power on the shelves...everyone right now would be saying naruto needs a power up to compete against sasuke.

And we aren't really arguing, just having a conversation Mr. Johnny 5.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

Oh it's been mentioned countless times in countless threads, but some people refuse to face reality : /
Naruto never fought all 6 simultaneously as Jiraiya did; there was always one or more conveniently missing elements in Pein's perfect teamwork setup.

jiraiya barely fought all 6 at once. he fought 1, then 3 and then when all 6 were present, he realized it was too much and captured 1 of them into his giant summoning toad (so again he was only facing 1 of them), then when he returned to face the remaining 5 he was pretty much instantly killed. in other words, to claim jiraiya fought 6 at once, while naruto didn't, is a petty argument since that's not really what happened in the jiraiya fight aside from a couple seconds until jiraiya escaped.

just saying that i'm not coming down on jiraiya at all. he did well for certain. pain's just insanely strong.

Pein was also intending to kill Jiraiya, not Naruto.

i'm pretty sure it's more difficult to capture an opponent, than it is to kill them

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

jiraiya barely fought all 6 at once. he fought 1, then 3 and then when all 6 were present, he realized it was too much and captured 1 of them into his giant summoning toad (so again he was only facing 1 of them), then when he returned to face the remaining 5 he was pretty much instantly killed. in other words, to claim jiraiya fought 6 at once, while naruto didn't, is a petty argument since that's not really what happened in the jiraiya fight aside from a couple seconds until jiraiya escaped.

just saying that i'm not coming down on jiraiya at all. he did well for certain. pain's just insanely strong.

i'm pretty sure it's more difficult to capture an opponent, than it is to kill them

RIP master jiraiya...
i wager that if he had faced all 6 from jumped he would have killed 4 for certain maaaaybe a fifth one. revival pain would've been dead for sure along with android, and summon dude...he got blind-sided, which is why it was more or less an instant kill

[james0246]

Some quick comments:

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

I can't see current Naruto fairing significantly better against the 5 kage than ms sasuke did

Naruto's clones were literally running around fighting and defeating (some with help) Kage level zombie opponents during the first day of war, and that's not to mention the 10 Kage level opponents he faced alongside Bee when they went to confront Tobi (no they didn't win, but they also weren't completely defeated), so why you think Naruto couldn't fight (not defeat) the 5 Kages is a little baffling.

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

I also don't see current Naruto steam rolling danzo given the same situation ms sasuke had fighting him.

Danzou really wasn't that strong. In fact, he was very weak compared to most of the big bads. He had a few high powered techniques, but nothing to debilitating, especially for someone like Naruto or Sasuke. The only reason Danzou even lasted a minute against Sasuke is because of the stolen powers of the Uchiha (Izanagi), otherwise Sasuke would have fairly easily killed him (in fact he did, 9 times). So why you think Naruto couldn't easily defeat him is a little baffling.

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

The point im trying to make is this, we know what current Naruto can do very well...and although he is obviously stronger then ms sasuke, i think ms sasuke still has the tools to give current naruto a fight without being completely obliterated. Now that sasuke has ems, he has become even stronger...so im not inclined to believe the difference in their current power is vast or even very noticeable.

While I do think Naruto is technically more powerful, Sasuke has more skills, so there is not a vast difference. But if Naruto does get a the full Kyuubi, and if that actually means something, and he can combine it with Sage Mode (which is still unknown), then the gulf (if there is one) will probably increase.

I think you are vastly underestimating just how powerful Kishimoto has made Naruto (and Sasuke).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

jiraiya barely fought all 6 at once. he fought 1, then 3 and then when all 6 were present, he realized it was too much and captured 1 of them into his giant summoning toad (so again he was only facing 1 of them), then when he returned to face the remaining 5 he was pretty much instantly killed. in other words, to claim jiraiya fought 6 at once, while naruto didn't, is a petty argument since that's not really what happened in the jiraiya fight aside from a couple seconds until jiraiya escaped.

Jiraiya did fought them all actually, it just happened off panel in order to keep the remaining paths secret for the next fight. Take a look at chapter 379 page 11 and chapter 381 page 13, It's the same landscape but completely destroyed by the battle.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Jiraiya did fought them all actually, it just happened off panel in order to keep the remaining paths secret for next fight. Take a loot at chapter 379 page 11 and chapter 381 page 13, It's the same landscape but completely destroyed by the battle.

oh right on. thanks

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

jiraiya barely fought all 6 at once. he fought 1, then 3 and then when all 6 were present, he realized it was too much and captured 1 of them into his giant summoning toad (so again he was only facing 1 of them), then when he returned to face the remaining 5 he was pretty much instantly killed. in other words, to claim jiraiya fought 6 at once, while naruto didn't, is a petty argument since that's not really what happened in the jiraiya fight aside from a couple seconds until jiraiya escaped.

Jiraiya fought them relatively briefly because fighting all 6 simply overwhelmed him –as you stated, Pein is simply insanely strong. You seem to think I am trying to place Jiraiya on a pedestal above Naruto; thats not the case. I was using this as an example to point out the fact that there was always a missing element to Pein when he fought Naruto.

i'm pretty sure it's more difficult to capture an opponent, than it is to kill them

Which is exactly my point. Besides missing one or more elements of attack all throughout his fight against Naruto, Pein also had to attempt to capture him, which is more difficult than just killng him (where he had multiple opportunities for over the course of the battle). On the other hand, Jiraiya was far easier for Pein since Jiraiya had much less help on his side and Pein didn't have to hold back during the battle.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Danzou really wasn't that strong. In fact, he was very weak compared to most of the big bads. He had a few high powered techniques, but nothing to debilitating, especially for someone like Naruto or Sasuke. The only reason Danzou even lasted a minute against Sasuke is because of the stolen powers of the Uchiha (Izanagi), otherwise Sasuke would have fairly easily killed him (in fact he did, 9 times). So why you think Naruto couldn't easily defeat him is a little baffling.

Danzou is ridiculously powerful and the way he gained power is completely irrelevant. It's not possible to easily kill him because he's invincible for at least 10 minutes (and not 10 times, Sasuke "killed" him way more than 9 times) regardless of how powerful you are. Naruto would have exactly the same problem as Sasuke : Keep the offensive for 10 minute while avoiding or tanking his wind attacks (which are among the very few strong enough to pierce Susanoo), dodging all physical contact because Danzou could seal your body with a mere touch whereas he could respawn everywhere he wanted in the vicinity.
The one great advantage for Naruto in this matchup is his ungodly stamina, contrarily to Sasuke at the time he'd not have much problem fighting at full power for more than 10 minutes and while he has no Genjutsu to trick Danzou I'm sure Kage Bunshin can do the job just fine.
As far as Shisui eye go however there is no real answer.