[Manga] Naruto Chapter 629 Discussion Thread

[Eragon]

Yeah. That's it. You just proved how...."mature" and "knowledgeable" you are with that post.

Good luck getting people to take you seriously.

[b1gdawg]

Regarding the picture on Page 8 ([cut]), of Naruto with all the Bijuu behind him.

1. What's that symbolize? Does Naruto have power from all of those Bijuu somehow?

2. That's the 7 tailed in the bottom left right? It looks a lot like Madara's Susanoo to me for some reason

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

I honestly don't care who takes me seriously on a forum, everything I said was true wasn't it? So what's the problem?

I didn't know telling the truth makes me immature,? You can worry about making ppl smile by being politically correct, I'll stick to the facts ty.

I feel like both sides of this argument are at either extreme. males are on average more physically capable than women. and at the top of athleticism, men dominate women, just check almost any olympic record. that said, a woman who has trained would kick the crap out of an average man who hasn't. that's where sasukemaru lost me. but everyone else seems to fail to acknowledge the obvious truth that there is a difference between men and women... political correctness is indeed a horrible thing if you ask me. the naruto world is one in which everyone (ninjas) are trained. we're not talking about average people here but that's where chakra comes in

so all that said, in a world where chakra is what matters, it should bridge that gap. just look at sakura and tsunade. they are 2 of the most powerful characters because of their chakra control. the reason female characters in naruto generally suck is because kishi doesn't know how to write women (he also might just not care and i think he does harbor some slight misogynistic tendencies with lines like kurenai's father telling her she's only good for making babies, etc...)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but everyone else seems to fail to acknowledge the obvious truth that there is a difference between men and women...

Name one.
Nobody disagreed that men are stronger on average than women because of difference in muscles makeup, level of testosterone, etc. Sasukemaru was making a fool of himself because he said it wasn't a question of average and that the strongest woman has no chance against even an average man apparently because of her vagina. The inanity of the statement is such that there was no need to comment further on it.

That being said those real differences do not explain the fictional difference in power between men and women in the story. All those reasons are completely irrelevant in an universe where a little woman like Tsunade is physically more powerful than a bodybuilder like the Raikage, where chakra can be stored in body fat and where a slim 16 years old Chippendale like Sasuke has more chakra than 10 men put together.
They are not athletes, they are wizards.

The reason females don't hold a candle to their males counterparts is merely because this is a shounen manga aimed at boys written by someone who by his own admission has much difficulty writing about girls.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I feel like both sides of this argument are at either extreme. males are on average more physically capable than women. and at the top of athleticism, men dominate women, just check almost any olympic record. that said, a woman who has trained would kick the crap out of an average man who hasn't. that's where sasukemaru lost me. but everyone else seems to fail to acknowledge the obvious truth that there is a difference between men and women... political correctness is indeed a horrible thing if you ask me. the naruto world is one in which everyone (ninjas) are trained. we're not talking about average people here but that's where chakra comes in

so all that said, in a world where chakra is what matters, it should bridge that gap. just look at sakura and tsunade. they are 2 of the most powerful characters because of their chakra control. the reason female characters in naruto generally suck is because kishi doesn't know how to write women (he also might just not care and i think he does harbor some slight misogynistic tendencies with lines like kurenai's father telling her she's only good for making babies, etc...)

Yeah, calling bullshit on a statement like "the strongest female fighter will get destroyed by your average male" is being politically correct

And what both extremes? As far as I can see, he's the only one on the extreme. As Hunter said, no one's arguing on your average male and female - although even then, you cannot make a blanket statement like that.

As you yourself noted, physical capabilities count for shit in Naruto, most of the time. So, inferring that physical superiority in real world would translate to combat superiority in Naruto-verse and calling it a "fact" is bullshitting to the extreme.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

1. What's that symbolize? Does Naruto have power from all of those Bijuu somehow?

In chapter 572 when Naruto learned the names of the Bijuu he also high-fived them. It was speculated back then that they might have given him some of their chakra.
Well Shikaku wasn't there but it's probably an oversight from the author.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Name one.

umm... everyone who responded to sasukemaru. name one person who acknowledged it... everyone skirted around that fact out of political correctness and focused on his ridiculous comment about trained women losing to average men which in my post i said was flat out wrong

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

umm... everyone who responded to sasukemaru.

Would you mind providing one single example of anybody doing this instead of dodging the question by repeating "everyone"? There are 9 posts indirectly or directly responding to his statement before you made this comment, none of them stated or implied that there was no physical difference between men and women in reality whereas nearly all of them asked what physical strength had to do in an universe where everything is chakra related anyway.

edit: Better yet, let's both drop this ridiculous "who-said-what" discussion and focus on whether those physical differences should have any effect in the Naruto universe if we are to further pursue this subject.

[james0246]

Thinking about it, The Rin Bomb was actually a fairly decent surprise attack, but it didn't have much long-term strategy. After the Mizu-nin had killed Kakashi, they'd rough Rin up and leave her at Konoha's doorstep. Minato would then try and save his students life, resulting in the Rin Bomb being brought back to Konoha. Once she was awake, the chances of her explosion would be great, and considering her emotional state they would be even greater. Still, using a Bijuu in such a way is a very short-term solution. Beyond the fact that Konoha, as a/the major village, would have ways of combating a Bijuu, it's entirely likely that Konoha would seize control of the Bijuu, resulting in a overall net gain for Konoha, even if the surprise attack managed to kill quite a few Leaf-nin. And since the Sanbi was known, Konoha would know where to attack first. As I said, it's a good surprise attack, but there is no real follow-through, and the likelihood of Konoha rising from the ashes is too great.

Personally, I still think Madara was behind the entire encounter. But, I doubt Obito would care one way or another any longer. It's somewhat nice to know how divorced from reality he actually is...

[Hunter]

It would have been a better plan if Rin had been maintained unconscious during the process so she wouldn't know anything about it and the added fact that the Mist village army would be on standby to attack Konoha by surprise as the Sanbi went wild.
As it is, the only thing she had to do was stay away from Konoha and let Kakashi finds help so if things went wrong the village wouldn't be in danger.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It would have been a better plan if Rin had been maintained unconscious during the process so she wouldn't know anything about it and the added fact that the Mist village army would be on standby to attack Konoha by surprise as the Sanbi went wild.
As it is, the only thing she had to do was stay away from Konoha and let Kakashi finds help so if things went wrong the village wouldn't be in danger.

Of course this end result is not what Mizu planned (unless Madara was behind it all, in which case the plan went perfectly). Rather, I was saying the key concept of the plan was fundamentally flawed due to bad intelligence (why they would attack a village that has an Uzumaki is foolish to begin with) and of course information know else knew (Minato and Jiraiya's sealing abilities not to mention Kushina being a Jinchuuriki). Still, working with what they knew, Kiri developed a decent surprise attack. Now if only the damn Trojan horse hadn't woken up before her delivery...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

edit: Better yet, let's both drop this ridiculous "who-said-what" discussion and focus on whether those physical differences should have any effect in the Naruto universe if we are to further pursue this subject.

sure. in the narutoverse, physicality/size doesn't matter at all, unless it's the particular character's thing like A, 3rd raikage, lee, gai, etc... but most characters dont rely on physicality like the sakura and tsunade examples i cited before. in a world where a crippled old man can lift a giganitic turtle island and fly around with it and stop meteors it obviously doesn't matter what your physical makeup is. the reason girls suck in naruto is as it was stated before by me, you and others. it's all on kishi's writing of female characters

Originally Posted by james0246

Personally, I still think Madara was behind the entire encounter. But, I doubt Obito would care one way or another any longer. It's somewhat nice to know how divorced from reality he actually is...

i think madara was behind it as well. that's the only way it makes sense for him to send obito at the perfect time to gain MS and for him to have been sure obito would return to him. i do however think it will matter to obito when he finds out. obito (although not a great character) is a sympathetic one. he was once good and is now twisted by evil and misfortune. i can't see him not being redeemed in some way. and the only way for him to be slightly redeemed is for him to turn on madara which i can only see him doing if he learns the truth about rin

[Typeblue]

Originally Posted by Eragon

Yeah, calling bullshit on a statement like "the strongest female fighter will get destroyed by your average male" is being politically correct

And what both extremes? As far as I can see, he's the only one on the extreme. As Hunter said, no one's arguing on your average male and female - although even then, you cannot make a blanket statement like that.

As you yourself noted, physical capabilities count for shit in Naruto, most of the time. So, inferring that physical superiority in real world would translate to combat superiority in Naruto-verse and calling it a "fact" is bullshitting to the extreme.

To those who accuse Kishi of sexism, you need to get out of your 1 dimensional world. I have been fortunate to live in 3 different countries and visit several others. Not everywhere is like the United States. There are countries where women are very passive, would rather be in the kitchen than put on a 'suit and tie'. While Naruto is fictional, the author draws inspiration from real life. In real life Japan, Latin America, Africa, and most of Asia, women are not as aggressive as Western Europe or north America. Kishimoto, as I, grew up in an environment where girls acted feminine, with a few exceptions.

There are differences in the abilities of men and women, sometimes its huge and sometimes it's really close, and in some rare cases women actually do better.
Remember the 16 year Old female Chinese Swimmer who had a better time than Ryan Lochte. On the flip side, I have seen a profession female boxer who almost got knocked out by a chubby guy with 0 boxing experience (probably due to weight difference).

While the examples above are isolated incidences, My experience is that women are better in some sports/exercise than others. Women are good runners, good at sit-ups, bad at push ups, and terrible at weight lifting, even with intense training.

With that said I am one who believes nurture trumps nature, so with the right environment I think a woman can be just as good or better than a guy at anything

[james0246]

We really need to stop this discussion, It's just getting derivative and so off-topic as to be hilariously silly.

[cut...since the joke on the inanity of the discussion didn't land...]

Whatever the case, please cease all discussion of this topic in this thread/sub-forum. If you want to talk about sexism in Japan or simply in Naruto please find a more appropriate thread.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Hunter

In chapter 572 when Naruto learned the names of the Bijuu he also high-fived them. It was speculated back then that they might have given him some of their chakra.
Well Shikaku wasn't there but it's probably an oversight from the author.

I kinda remember that... but, I don't really understand... How was Naruto in a place where he could communicate/make contact with all the Bijuu while they were all trapped in Madara's statue.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I kinda remember that... but, I don't really understand... How was Naruto in a place where he could communicate/make contact with all the Bijuu while they were all trapped in Madara's statue.

they weren't in the statue at that time. obito was controlling the corpses of the 6 jinchuuriki and they were utilizing their respective bijou on the ninja alliance

[GDB]

So, are we even sure that they really put the Sanbi into Rin? Isn't it supposed to be really hard to contain a tailed beast at all, yet as far as we know she wasn't anything special in terms of strength (like Bee) or chakra?

Assuming Madara really was behind it, could they not have tricked her into thinking she was a bomb, causing her to sacrifice herself like she did? It would surely explain all the "stupid mist plan" complaints.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

So, are we even sure that they really put the Sanbi into Rin? Isn't it supposed to be really hard to contain a tailed beast at all, yet as far as we know she wasn't anything special in terms of strength (like Bee) or chakra?

Assuming Madara really was behind it, could they not have tricked her into thinking she was a bomb, causing her to sacrifice herself like she did? It would surely explain all the "stupid mist plan" complaints.

i assume so because when kakashi killed her, wouldnt the sanbi have come out or died with her? i dont know. it doesnt make sense to me yet. hopefully it will when we get the final rin wrapup backstory

[james0246]

Originally Posted by GDB

So, are we even sure that they really put the Sanbi into Rin? Isn't it supposed to be really hard to contain a tailed beast at all, yet as far as we know she wasn't anything special in terms of strength (like Bee) or chakra?

Assuming Madara really was behind it, could they not have tricked her into thinking she was a bomb, causing her to sacrifice herself like she did? It would surely explain all the "stupid mist plan" complaints.

It's somewhat unknown how the Bijuu escape. The Ichibi was always in the Pot, the Hachibi managed to escape by taking over its host (the Kyuubi has tried using a similar method), and the Kyuubi was actually withdrawn from Kushina. That being said, the Bijuu can survive the death of a host, and it does seem to take them time to reform (elsewhere), so it is possible that Rin was actually sealed with the Sanbi and it simply was reformed elsewhere.

Then again, we still run into the problem of timelines, considering we do not know how old Yagura was nor when he became a Jinchuuriki for the Sanbi. (We also still don't know how Obito fits into Yagura's timeline.)

As an aside, I do like that the first Bijuu Tobi fights is the Sanbi. Undoubtedly, Kishimoto chose the Sanbi once again purely because of that former connection (i.e. Tobi captured the Sanbi ages ago, so Kishimoto decided to use the same Bijuu again for the Rin story).

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

they weren't in the statue at that time. obito was controlling the corpses of the 6 jinchuuriki and they were utilizing their respective bijou on the ninja alliance

so... how exactly was naruto communicating with them... I remember Sasuke communicating with the Kyuubi once but that was with his sharingan right?


And TObito was able to seal the bijuu into the jinchuuriki alone... then back into the statue alone... 6 separate times, while it took the rest of the Akatsuki days together to seal them into the statue?


I'm not saying you're wrong, because i remember that now, but it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.