Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The fanservice, per se, isn't what I think is disappointing some people here.

The fanservice in this episode, and in this anime, would indeed be mild if this was, say, your standard modern LN adaptation or your standard harem romcom.

But that's generally not what people look for in a Gen Urobuchi-wrote show or in a mecha show. I honestly am a bit disappointed that world building in this show has focused pretty heavily on mundane, slice of life-stuff while grander sci-fi/space fantasy lore has been almost nowhere to be seen since Episode 1 (this undersea exploration with Bellows is frankly well overdue).

With all due respect, I don't think this is very correct to say whatsoever. Gen's reputation precedes him, but Gen explicitly made clear his intentions in this show. Furthermore, mecha is such a varied concept that can manifest itself in just so many ways.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's one thing for Gen to shift from his typical dark style to a relatively lighter one. But even then, it's a bit surprising that this work has been so light and fluffy this episode and the one before it; it's like going from one extreme to the other. If you had told me a few months ago that Gargantia would be, by far, the most light and fluffy and fanservice-driven of the three Spring 2013 mecha shows, I would have found that hard to believe. Yet here we are, and it is indeed the case right now.

The problem with this notion is that the more light and fluffy moments as you put it are the very core of the show. Gen explcitely stated that this show is about the time of your life when you enter soceity and that sense of wandering that comes with it. All this stuff about Ledo trying to figure out what to do with his life on Gargantia is the most important aspect of the entire show. Not to downplay everything else, but if people were looking for other things, they're ignoring the director/writer's intentions in this show.

Of course, one must also acknowledge that even though Gen is the head script writer, he doesn't write every episode. So while he of course provides much oversight, it's easy to see where some aspects of these episodes (the dialogue mostly) has nothing to do with his writing style. One striknig scene would be when the girls were discussing their weight last episode, I could never imagine Gen writing such a distasteful a line of dialogue like that ever (and in fact he didn't).

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Or needlessly worry about their weights.

Weight is an important thing for many teenage girls you know. Just like muscles are very important many teenage boys.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I am not saying they need to be relevant or major characters. But when their major purpose is "fanservice" yeah sorry but I don't see this as a positive way to write female characters.

There are characters that are made just to be there. I think it's normal for a medium such as an anime to have such (I have seen parodies make fun of these).

In my stance, when writing is concerned, if that is done to main characters (or sub-mains), then I will agree with you. If they are just background characters, I might as well just ignore it. It's obvious the writers are not going to make some complex things about them (just going to give them paper thin characterization, with closeness to stereotypes, cliches, etc.).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

With all due respect, I don't think this is very correct to say whatsoever.

It is largely, if not completely, correct. People tend to expect actual mecha action in a mecha show. We've now had 3 consecutive episodes (in an one cour show no less) without any actual mecha action. This would probably go over better if the substitute for this was extensive world-building that made the Gargantian universe seem more interesting and fascinating. But instead we're getting a fair bit of material that could easily be found in any run of the mill LN adaptation or harem romcom.

Gen's reputation precedes him, but Gen explicitly made clear his intentions in this show.

Those intentions are not incompatible with a show that would have more mecha action and a wider range of world-building and mecha action than what we've seen here in Gargantia, imo.

The problem with this notion is that the more light and fluffy moments as you put it are the very core of the show. Gen explcitely stated that this show is about the time of your life when you enter soceity and that sense of wandering that comes with it.

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.


I'm not saying this is a bad episode. I found it a reasonably pleasant watch. But it's the same sort of viewing experience I could get from countless anime shows. I was hoping for something a bit more distinct given Gen's track record.

[kivredia]

Guess there are different reasons why people disliked the fan service. Personally I don't even get why suddenly there are shots of characters in a conversation and the part which you see of their bodies are their breasts/bottom(10:30ish Bellows and Pinion talking ...). Then the camera angle on the girls dancing which makes it blatantly in your face fan service.

But most of all, why are the dancers 15/14 year old girls and not women/young women like Bellows/Ridgett or someone else in that age range. Then you could spin the story that Amy is also learning to dance(tradition on Gargantia or w/e) and the scene with Ledo later could still happen and imho would be even "better" because its more personal.

I guess pointless fanservice is easier though.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It is largely, if not completely, correct. People tend to expect actual mecha action in a mecha show. We've now had 3 consecutive episodes (in an one cour show no less) without any actual mecha action. This would probably go over better if the substitute for this was extensive world-building that made the Gargantian universe seem more interesting and fascinating. But instead we're getting a fair bit of material that could easily be found in any run of the mill LN adaptation or harem romcom.

Point me out a LN that legitimately explores the concepts and themes of Gargantia then. I'll tell you that you'll probably have a hard time doing so.

My point anyhow is that trying to pigeon hole mecha is a bit silly considering the wide variety of mecha titles out there. Mecha can literally take any form of storytelling and Gargantia is but another example of this.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Those intentions are not incompatible with a show that would have more mecha action and a wider range of world-building and mecha action than what we've seen here in Gargantia, imo.

Wider range of world-building? Isn't that what these past episodes have been about? Exploring the Gargantia, as it appears like a microcosm of society?

Mecha have been involved in the story nearly every episode, including this one. Mecha don't only have to be used for blowing stuff up.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.

Has it not been distressing to Ledo?

[Kanon]

Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

[Kirarakim]

I don't want another dark Urobuchi show but I do want less pandering and more of the great writing we saw in episodes 1, 2, and 4.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.

What would you want instead? I personally feel the way Ledo is being integrated into the society is very reasonable and well done.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

I am satisfied with the show so far. Ledo and his integration to Gargantia has been enjoyable to watch. And from the initial I didn't really expect things to get dark or at dark from early on.

I really do feel that last two episodes have been justified, don't really need to rush into anything right now. I think if those two episodes were one, the pace might be off as well as the progression of the story.

[jeroz]

Btw guys, Fumoffu is a horrible show. /s

[DuelGundam2099]

I want pirates again.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Weight is an important thing for many teenage girls you know. Just like muscles are very important many teenage boys.

Young Japanese women of all weight categories tend to overestimate their body image.... Studies summarized in Table 4 show that 41% and 68% of Japanese female adolescents aged 6–13 years and 16–18 years, respectively, had negative body image perception and high desire for thinness, regardless of their actual weight. [M]any Japanese girls had weight and shape concerns. Similarly, as this trend of overestimation has grown in most female age groups since 1998, it is considered that body image perception amongst Japanese females has become distorted.

http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.

I'm not sure that everything about it is light and fluffy, though. I know that the Gargantian fleet's real joie de vivre culture is portrayed as almost ridiculously like a paradise, but that's mostly to contrast it with the place that Ledo comes from. In addition, his adaptation to their world hasn't been without hiccups, and he knows he can't stay forever. It's not likely that Gargantia will be able to "save" Ledo if his people come calling, but what they've already done is given him perspective, and shown him possibilities that he never would have imagined otherwise.

While I'd like to include a caveat stating that I'm hoping to see some conflict revolving around the greater universe that's been created before the end of the show, I'm otherwise of the mind that Ledo's growth is the story, and that it's being handled rather exceptionally.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

I don't think the producers are necessarily trying to do that. I think they were just trying to portray them as "normal" teenage girls. And yes back when I was a teen I heard these types of conversations among other fellow teenage girls often. Heck I still hear these conversations now among adult women. Whether we like it or not body image is a big part of many cultures.

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And that actually makes me thankful that we have a 16-year-old space soldier as protagonist, not 30 or older .

Setsuna F. Seiei never reached it...

Originally Posted by ahelo

Mor's dance should've been like Amy's dance.

Different staff and budget.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

They're merely having them act as teenagers. If anything what you linked and quoted reinforces my point that such things "are" important to teenagers. Thus I see no issue with them talking to each other about weight as they are teenagers. At the very least they aren't starving themselves and Amy seems to be fine with her body as is. Clearly Ledo agrees as well.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Birdway

Setsuna F. Seiei never reached it...

I thought he has a hard-on whenever he looks at his Gundam .

[taofd]

You guys seem to be missing the point of the majority of criticisms. Sure the directors are in their full rights to create whatever show they want. However, there are natural consequences for falsely setting expectations (or poorly setting them).

Interviews w/ the Gargantia Directors have revealed that Urobuchi has written the setting for both the first and last episode of Gargantia. This implies that Urobuchi was responsible for the overall setting of the tone and setting expectations for the entirety of the series. The fact that the series has taken a complete 180 is not only disappointing, it's also bad business and setting the entire show up for failure.

I won't write off the show just yet, but I will assert that they've made a serious mistake that they should've seen coming. When you entice a certain demographic of users, you are setting expectations for the type of series you are creating. We can rationalize all we want in this thread, whether or not this was expected or they are doing the right thing, but numbers and the amount of criticism will surely tell over time.

I'll make a prediction -- If the next episode heralds the return of the Hideaze, the studio may yet salvage their current situation.

However, if it turns out to be a whale squid (or whatever they called it) and the rest of the episodes until episode 13 turn out to be slice-of-life/fan-service, it will be a tremendous waste of talent, and I suspect the show's ratings will reflect their failure to evaluate their consumer-base.

[Methuselah]

Originally Posted by taofd

You guys seem to be missing the point of the majority of criticisms. Sure the directors are in their full rights to create whatever show they want. However, there are natural consequences for falsely setting expectations (or poorly setting them).

Interviews w/ the Gargantia Directors have revealed that Urobuchi has written the setting for both the first and last episode of Gargantia. This implies that Urobuchi was responsible for the overall setting of the tone and setting expectations for the entirety of the series. The fact that the series has taken a complete 180 is not only disappointing, it's also bad business and setting the entire show up for failure.

I won't write off the show just yet, but I will assert that they've made a serious mistake that they should've seen coming. When you entice a certain demographic of users, you are setting expectations for the type of series you are creating. We can rationalize all we want in this thread, whether or not this was expected or they are doing the right thing, but numbers and the amount of criticism will surely tell over time.

I'll make a prediction -- If the next episode heralds the return of the Hideaze, the studio may yet salvage their current situation.

However, if it turns out to be a whale squid (or whatever they called it) and the rest of the episodes until episode 13 turn out to be slice-of-life/fan-service, it will be a tremendous waste of talent, and I suspect the show's ratings will reflect their failure to evaluate their consumer-base.

Same goes towards Muv Luv Total Eclipse. First 2 episodes was to portray this wide setting (Science fiction, action, pychological trauma etc) then the rest of it is pure fanservice and harem.... WTF?

[cf18]

My theory on the dance / Whalesquid / Hideauze:

Hideauze were sea creatures that came from Earth, evolved and flown into space millions of years ago, when the planet was frozen in another ice cycle.

After most human left the ice earth and earth become the water world we see, these giant squid become the biggest creature of the ocean. The people of Gargantia celebrate or worship them, like how some of our cultures treat elephants and lions. Notice how the dance dress matching up with the giant squid - the head fins, the eyes and the tails.