(L+CR) Free!

[Triple_R]

Maybe this would be more to your liking, Pocari.

Spoiler for Five Free! Females:

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe this would be more to your liking, Pocari.

Spoiler for Five Free! Females:

Not really.

[musouka]

The reason why people are being "hostile" is because you're not providing any context for your remarks. There are aspects of the show I find "uninteresting" too (anything to do with Rin and Haruka's [yawn] rivalry) but all you're doing is saying things like "make it be about swimming" and "make the characters be interesting" without telling us why you don't think it's about those things already.

Let me give you an example.

I just mentioned that I don't like Rin and Haruka's rivalry. There are a few reasons for that, but the main one is, that by framing Rin's character the way that it is, it feels as though the show is writing a check it can't possibly cash in the future.

Rin has been characterized thus far as someone who's incredibly angry and frustrated--to the point of taking it out on his childhood friends that are otherwise pretty happy to see him, and even worry about him after hearing he's come back every year and only been interested in seeing Haruka. For me to like a character that takes out his frustration on totally innocent parties, it feels as though what made him this way has to be pretty horrible. I don't think "what happened" is going to be bad enough to justify his attitude--though I'd be perfectly happy if KyoAni proves me wrong!

On the other hand, as far as "interesting characters" go, Makoto pretty much carries the series for me. I don't think it's hard to see that his relationship with Haruka verges on unhealthy codependency and that he has a problem articulating his own desires and wants. Right now, he seems like a typical nice guy but even the opening hints he's carrying something heavier than you'd expect.

[Pocari_Sweat]

So you want examples? Here are some:

1. I don't like the fact Haruka shamelessly strips everytime the word "pool" or "swim" is mentioned.

2. I don't like the fact that Gou is acting fangirly everytime "torsos" or "biceps" are shown.

3. I don't like the fact that the teacher (forgot her name) doesn't act remotely like an adult and just follows the pattern of airheaded, "retarded" teachers which have been present since Key adaptation days. It's not cute, it's not funny and it's getting very old.

4. I don't like Nagisa's character at all. He's a Yui Hirasawa in a male body.

5. I don't like those obnoxious bicep, torso or asshots much like I don't like obnoxious boob or panty shots.

Or at the very least, I did find some these initially ironically funny, but now they are getting stale and old.

[musouka]

So...you don't like running gags?

I don't see what that has to do with how interesting or uninteresting the characters are, though.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

I know what I was getting into and it's still pretty mediocre. Just like that Fate/Ilya magical girl spinoff is exactly what it is advertised (shameless loliservice) doesn't automatically give it pass as being good, neither should this.

Except you're trying to frame your arguments as objective when what you're really saying is "I don't like this show, they should've made it in a way that appeals to me more." Whereas other people find the show appealing and indeed, good.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Then make its non-sport elements interesting then and not so one dimensional. Tari Tari from last season wasn't a really a music anime but its characters and drama were far more emphatical, charming and heartwarming. The same can be said to series like Kids on the Slope and Natsuiro Kiseki despite their problems.

........are you seriously comparing this anime to Kids on the Slope? A completely different show that was trying to do something completely different than what Free is trying to do?

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Then make the male characters interesting. So far, the male characters have as much depth as the female characters did in K-on.

You mean "make the male characters interesting for me." Trust me many people find them interesting and enjoyable even now. "Because of their hot bodies", you say? Perhaps (although not everyone), but this is exactly that kind of anime.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Making money is fine, but the style of series they do is getting really old. Give it some depth and effort like Hyouka and I have zero problems. Or do a completely different genre. It's why I was extremely pleased when Kyoukai no Kanata was announced.

One, I wish people realized that Free is not the first thing of its kind, just because KyoAni made it.
Two, what you seem to wish is that Free was a completely different show, with different focuses, goals and target audience. It's your prerogative but the thing is, Free does what it wants to do, does it well, and pleases its target audience. If you don't enjoy it that's too bad, but it's not automatically bad just because of that.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by musouka

So...you don't like running gags?

I don't see what that has to do with how interesting or uninteresting the characters are, though.

Characters have little depth, are two-dimensional and act in very predictable ways.

Whenever "swimming" or "pool" is mentioned, you KNOW that Haruka is gonna strip and dive head first into a pool.

I find it stupid that Rei quit the track team despite being really good at what he does because the plot demands it even if he isn't interested in swimming in the first place.

I find no purpose in Nagisa's character aside from being a cute mascot in a male's body for the intended audience to gawk at.

I don't mid Rin that much, but I do think his sudden attitude change to being an asshole is overplayed and only there to force some drama. I mean it's probably going to be something like him failing to make an impact when he went boarding in Australia.

Gou is an shallow insert character much like those oblivious and boring male harem protagonists are.

The teacher I explained already.

The only real character I found likable was that pizza van driver guy where he wanted to visit the old pool before it got demolished. Alas he was only a minor character and I don't expect to see him again.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In any event, Blonto, if you're going to nitpick my speculative explanations this much, then why don't you put out your ideas as to what the writer meant by saying it was easier to write Haruka as a heroine?

I don't mean to be annoying, I'm just finding it hard to see where you're coming from since my impressions of anime seem to be different from yours.
Honestly, I really don't know what they guy is thinking. My guess is he wanted to make Haruka seem girlier than he actually is (since chicks dig girly guys), or make him seem like a heroine in a reverse harem, so he could maybe attract more fujoshi to the show. Or maybe he's implying he found it easier to write him when copying certain similar female characters (albeit not heroines) like Yuki from Haruhi.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

I don't hate swimming at all, and considering I live in Australia which has a very swimming heavy culture it would be weird to do so. But that is irrelevant so you're beating up a strawman here.

Um, where did I even imply you hate swimming? I said you might not register it as relevant due to it "focusing on male characters stripping and flexing their musclely bodies", which might be why you claim there to be a lack of swimming despite the whole show revolving around it.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

The problem is like you said the "highschool antics" and what happens outside. It's just... very tiresome, old and unfunny. So if it's not really a sports anime and if it is mediocre as a character-driven narrative, then I only have the visuals and audio and the occassional "Wow" moment (even Tamako Market had a few of these). I'm not sure if that passes as being a good series.
Well no, it doesn't.

No, it doesn't. It's not a great show by any means. It's the same generic Kyoani show with flat characters we've all seen before.
However the show's problem is definitively not the lack of swimming. Every episode features it, the rest is characters focusing on putting a swimming club together (with a clear intent of competing later) and reminiscing about their past, all of which very much relate to swimming. They're not eating cake, going to picnics, eating more cake and wasting time like they would in K-On. Again, doesn't mean it's a quality show since I agree with the rest of your criticism, but swimming is a big part of it, partly since fanservice demands it.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Except you're trying to frame your arguments as objective when what you're really saying is "I don't like this show, they should've made it in a way that appeals to me more." Whereas other people find the show appealing and indeed, good.

I see plenty of complaints on this series and it's not just those sexists and misogynists. Also, no shit my argument is subjective, most opinions are, but quote me exactly where I said "this is my opinion and it's the correct one", because that's what you're stating it and I don't remember saying that.

........are you seriously trying to compare this anime to Kids on the Slope? A completely different show that was trying to do something completely different than what Free is trying to do?

Be it Kids on the Slope or Tari Tari or Natsuiro Kiseki or Chihayafuru, the purpose is that they are all character-driven narratives with varying amounts of material that constitute its core theme. These series is dependant on how good the characters are. I find the characters in Free quite mediocre.

One, I wish people realized that Free is not the first thing of its kind, just because KyoAni made it.

Strawman argument. Where did I say Free was the first of its kind? No shit there's a lot of material that's aimed at a fujioshi material prior to Free.

Two, what you wish is that Free was a completely different show, with different focuses, goals and target audience. It's your prerogative but the thing is, Free does what it wants to do, does it well, and pleases its target audience. If you don't enjoy it that's too bad, but it's not automatically bad just because of that.

It's also not automatically good because it's catering to a target audience or popular. Is Twilight automatically good because it meets its intended target audience and is popular? Is Sword Art Online automatically good because it caters to a target audience with antics that they like and largely sidetracking the intriguing concept of "you die in the game, you die in real life" aspect?

[Blonto]

Indeed, just because a show doesn't try doesn't make it immune to criticism.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Whenever "swimming" or "pool" is mentioned, you KNOW that Haruka is gonna strip and dive head first into a pool.

But that's not the sum of his character, that's a running gag to express just how much he loves to swim. His character is explored more in why he decided to stop swimming competitively, and how he thinks he's happier in the isolation swimming represents to him. It's not entirely dissimilar to many other popular KyoAni male leads, Oreki included.

I find it stupid that Rei quit the track team despite being really good at what he does because the plot demands it even if he isn't interested in swimming in the first place.

Rei wasn't "really good" at track; that's the reason we got the scene of the coach telling him that he had reached the limit of what he could accomplish there. And the reason Rei didn't want to swim was because he didn't know how and he didn't see the attraction it could have from an aesthetic standpoint. Haruka made him see how beautiful swimming could be, which piqued his interest and made him want to learn how to do it.

I find no purpose in Nagisa's character aside from being a cute mascot in a male's body for the intended audience to gawk at.

Nagisa pushes the plot forward. He's the active character where the rest are passive. Makoto is content to do whatever Haruka wants to do, and Haruka isn't the type to be active regardless of how he feels about things. Nagisa is the one that wants to get the trophy from their old swimming club, start the school swim club to face off against Rin, gets the paperwork, makes sure they fix up the pool, brainstorms ways to promote the club, ect, ect. Without Nagisa, nothing would have happened.

I don't mid Rin that much, but I do think his sudden attitude change to being an asshole is overplayed and only there to force some drama. I mean it's probably going to be something like him failing to make an impact when he went boarding in Australia.

No disagreement here.

Gou is an shallow insert character much like those oblivious and boring male harem protagonists are.

The teacher I explained already.

Kou is mostly there to provide a connection to her brother. After that, she's there for jokes about her name and lampshading the fanservice. But, really, she's a side character at best. What exactly are you expecting? Her relationship with her brother is given narrative weight. That's all she really needs.

The teacher is also a minor character. She's there because there needs to be an adult involved in the club, and why not make it a woman?

[orion]

^Besides no one takes the teacher seriously anyways. If they wanted a real coach, they prob need to look at the pizza delivery guy.

And with Gou ogling any breathing male swimmer's body, she really won't be involved with any particular one. It's a win-win situation for the female viewers in it for the guys only.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Be it Kids on the Slope or Tari Tari or Natsuiro Kiseki or Chihayafuru, the purpose is that they are all character-driven narratives with varying amounts of material that constitute its core theme. These series is dependant on how good the characters are. I find the characters in Free quite mediocre.

*gives up*

No, seriously, those shows you mention? are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GENRES than what Free is. They have different goals and aims. I have no idea how you can even think of comparing Free to them.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Strawman argument. Where did I say Free was the first of its kind? No shit there's a lot of material that's aimed at a fujioshi material prior to Free.

What strawman argument? I was trying to point out that Free belongs to a genre that has certain characteristics.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

It's also not automatically good because it's catering to a target audience or popular.

I didn't say that? I said you're basically criticizing what the show is based on and saying that it's bad just because it's not the kind of show you like. You're comparing it to shows from very different genres and aims and target audiences.

I mean, you're comparing a show centered around guys posing with their shirts off and being walking doujin materials to Chihayafuru and Kids on the Slope. TBH I don't think there's a point in continuing this argument.

Originally Posted by Blonto

Indeed, just because a show doesn't try doesn't make it immune to criticism.

I don't know who started this "doesn't make it immune to criticism" thing but it's getting more and more annoying every time I see it. I'm not saying it's immune to criticism - I'm saying I don't agree with the way Pocari Sweat is criticizing it.

Originally Posted by Blonto

Honestly, I really don't know what they guy is thinking. My guess is he wanted to make Haruka seem girlier than he actually is (since chicks dig girly guys), or make him seem like a heroine in a reverse harem, so he could maybe attract more fujoshi to the show. Or maybe he's implying he found it easier to write him when copying certain similar female characters (albeit not heroines) like Yuki from Haruhi.

"Hero" and "heroine" are traditional roles with certain implications. The "hero" position implies that the character is active, moves forward, pulls the story with himself, etc etc other stereotypically masculine traits. A "heroine" position in this case implies more passivity, being a "partner" character to the protagonist, optionally having to be saved from something by the protagonist, that sort of thing. The writer even adds that this is just his own personal image of the character, and that Haruka has (will have?) traits and growth that are cool and befitting a hero.

What causes the confusion here is that said he had an issue with writing Haru because Haru is a guy. What I'm getting from this is that he's not used to writing this type of male lead characters. The definition of "heroine" as above doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the character's actual gender, but for obvious reasons traditionally these are female characters.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

*gives up*

No, seriously, those shows you mention? are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GENRES than what Free is. They have different goals and aims. I have no idea how you can even think of comparing Free to them.

They are all under the umbrella of "sports/hobbies". Or if you want a extra broad category, it's "slice of life", though I don't even think it's a genre in the first place.

I didn't say that? I said you're basically criticizing what the show is based on and saying that it's bad just because it's not the kind of show you like. You're comparing it to shows from very different genres and aims and target audiences.

If I don't like it of course it's going to be not good in my eyes. Ignoring the fact what objectivity means (don't wanna go into this) does it make it objectively bad? No. Does the fact you like it make it objectively good? No.

I mean, you're comparing a show centered around guys posing with their shirts off and being walking doujin materials to Chihayafuru and Kids on the Slope. TBH I don't think there's a point in continuing this argument.

I'm comparing how character-driven narratives are done here to how it is done in the other shows, and it's frankly heads and shoulders better. They all are all under the umbrella of "sports/hobbies". Also, YOU are the one that started to get all fired up in the first place so don't give me this "I don't think there's a point in continuing this" arrogance.

I don't know who started this "doesn't make it immune to criticism" thing but it's getting more and more annoying every time I see it. I'm not saying it's immune to criticism - I'm saying I don't agree with the way Pocari Sweat is criticizing it.

And I don't agree with the way you are trying to defend it - i.e. it's liked by XYZ target audience so it must be good!

[RainbowMagnet]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

"There is a severe lack of swimming or swimming related activities."

Little focus on the actual swimming element, much focus on male characters stripping and flexing their musclely bodies. See Chihayafuru or Ginga no Kickoff for recent examples on how to do sports anime.

"Kinda stereotypical moeblobs and stand in fujioshi character."

Teacher is a typical airheaded kyoani female adult. From Key adaptations to K-on to Chuunibyou to this, they have been consistently the same. Gou is a standin fujioshi character that just glees in delight everytime a male character strips. Both of them are very two dimensional and not interesting at all.

"Another Kyoani money grabbing scheme."

It's a pretty common criticism that Kyoani is a pretty poor studio when it comes to diversification. Just because they switched from cute girls doing cute things to cute boys doing cute things does not change the fact they are pandering with this one. It's just a different demography.


Now don't get me wrong. There is a lot of polish in this series as with other Kyoani series, but it's severely lacking in substance. I'm liking for the visuals and for the reactions it gets. The sexist/misogynist comments everywhere never gets old in their stupidity.

Teacher is a typical airheaded kyoani female adult.

I'm not seeing it. Please provide examples as on why she's a "typical airhead", she seems pretty aware/observant to me. She's not constantly lost in her thoughts either.

Gou is a standin fujioshi character that just glees in delight everytime a male character strips.

I don't think you know what "fujoshi" means. She's more like a fangirl.

Little focus on the actual swimming element

There have been swimming/swimming-related events every episode. Just because there's more focus on something else, doesn't mean that there's little focus on this.

Just because they switched from cute girls doing cute things to cute boys doing cute things does not change the fact they are pandering with this one

Pandering= money-grabbing scheme. You might as well call everything a "money-grabbing scheme.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by RainbowMagnet

I'm not seeing it. Please provide examples as on why she's a "typical airhead", she seems pretty aware/observant to me. She's not constantly lost in her thoughts either.

Continuously saying "Eto", Constant stumbling with words, Incorrect messed up idioms in the teacher meeting room when the cast is being told off.

I don't think you know what "fujoshi" means. She's more like a fangirl.

You know what I mean, no need to be smart about it.

There have been swimming/swimming-related events every episode. Just because there's more focus on something else, doesn't mean that there's little focus on this.

I explained in my previous posts regarding how it is also mediocre from a character-narrative point of view.

Pandering= money-grabbing scheme. You might as well call everything a "money-grabbing scheme.

Long history of shamelessly and continuously doing so. When was the last time Kyoani aside from Hyouka produced something intriguing like Shin Sekai Yori or if we are talking in the same genre, a genuine slice of life series such as Bunny Drop. I don't see those series as "money-grabbing" or "pandering" schemes.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

I explained in my previous posts regarding how it is also mediocre from a character-narrative point of view.

No, you really didn't. At all.

You didn't even seem to understand that Nagisa is the active driving force behind the events that take place on the show, for crying out loud.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I don't know who started this "doesn't make it immune to criticism" thing but it's getting more and more annoying every time I see it. I'm not saying it's immune to criticism - I'm saying I don't agree with the way Pocari Sweat is criticizing it.

Many of his criticisms hold water though. Not to the "dropping it" levels, but certainly it's valid. Kyoani is a very repetitive studio and the characters of Free are too familiar and two dimensional and don't seem to show any signs of developing, aside from Haruka.
You can say "Well it's not that kind of show". Well, why shouldn't it be? It's a fanservice sports anime and it has the luxury of merging the two without the fanservice getting in the way of the story. Does having the characters be as well-developed as their bodies make them unattractive to women? I honestly can't see how asking for good characters could get in the way of what this show is trying to be.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

"Hero" and "heroine" are traditional roles with certain implications. The "hero" position implies that the character is active, moves forward, pulls the story with himself, etc etc other stereotypically masculine traits. A "heroine" position in this case implies more passivity, being a "partner" character to the protagonist, optionally having to be saved from something by the protagonist, that sort of thing. The writer even adds that this is just his own personal image of the character, and that Haruka has (will have?) traits and growth that are cool and befitting a hero.

What causes the confusion here is that said he had an issue with writing Haru because Haru is a guy. What I'm getting from this is that he's not used to writing this type of male lead characters. The definition of "heroine" as above doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the character's actual gender, but for obvious reasons traditionally these are female characters.

That's an interesting interpretation. I'm hoping you're right.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by musouka

No, you really didn't. At all.

You didn't even seem to understand that Nagisa is the active driving force behind the events that take place on the show, for crying out loud.

If Nagisa is an active driving force and well developed, then I might as well call Yui and Ritsu from K-on active and well developed as well because they did exactly the same thing.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

In ep 3, they acted a little too much like girls, if I'm going to be honest.