2013-08-07, 15:55 | Link #21 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm talking about a profound change in society. One in which 99% of humanity is... unnecessary, because there is no work where they wouldn't be outperformed by robots.
If you want to believe that it would mean the 1% would tell the 99% to starve, that's fine. If you want to think the 99% would go quietly... I'm going to have to call you naive. So, think about it: we can't employ anyone because robots do it better. What's left to do but to give everyone enough to live on and then some (panem et circenses) and just... kick back and let robots do everything for us? Today, we need money and jobs because, ultimately, we need other people to do things for us. To sweat for us. Since they're not slaves, we have to pay them. But what if we didn't? Robots don't mind being slaves. That's the point. |
2013-08-07, 15:58 | Link #22 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Quote:
the 3D-printer can print all the parts including the bottle the glue if ti can't be made by 3D printer can order form a central system which makes the glue form organic waste collected robotic garbage collectors. The glue will either be free or paid for by hours volunteer by the buyer.
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2013-08-07, 16:06 | Link #23 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Even with my example above about sports/concerts/plays, you still see people working together (or in competition with one another) as athletes/performers/artists. These and other types of jobs where humans are at the center should not be affected by robots taking over other types of jobs. |
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2013-08-07, 16:06 | Link #24 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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by the time robots are doing all the work, the world would also have 3D-printers that can pretty much anything we need. Everyone would be guaranteed a standard of living with those who chose to work able to get extras. This would also necessitate a smaller population then we currently have. however the process to get to this point would be very painful. For people who don't have the right skills and people who can't make the adjustments.
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2013-08-07, 17:29 | Link #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Depends, money is just a tool to quantify scarce resources and store value. Even in a world without physical need, there would still be a role for money if there are things in limited supply. Human time, land and locations, intellectual property etc.
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2013-08-07, 17:32 | Link #26 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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And that line has been running the same way since the past 20 years (or so the ES told me), with the same number of staff; special thanks to increased demand and output scaled to equilibrium. The only thing that changed are profits. Things will always scale to equilibrium. Sooner or later, employment will fall back in place - the question is, will we have enough resources to keep producing equally to demand at the break-even point?
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-08-07 at 17:49. |
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2013-08-07, 17:45 | Link #27 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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it would be a system were people are not working for a living but for luxuries.
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2013-08-07, 17:54 | Link #29 |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Isn't the idea of "people not having to work, but they only work if they want to" just a general utopian idea?
Also why are we bringing up 3d printers in the whole robots replacing human labor speculation? 3d printers makes this whole discussion even more complicated. Depending on what the limitations are of such printers in this speculation, do we even need robots for labour if we can print virtually everything what we need ? |
2013-08-07, 18:01 | Link #31 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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If it's like the replicators from star trek, then it can recycle matter. Farming and mining should not be needed if it can actually replicate similar materials and if it can replicate food , then i can assume it can also create other things. |
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2013-08-07, 18:13 | Link #32 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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medical care, not even Star trek replicators can heal.
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2013-08-07, 18:20 | Link #33 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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And what is the size of your 3d printers? If those are large enough (like the industrial replicators in star trek) it might create larger objects such as cars, planes or boats But there are still medical equipment in star trek |
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2013-08-07, 18:22 | Link #34 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Of course I guess that your first objection is but why wouldn't the owner of that production system own all the profits for himself? Well it's actually simple when you consider the inevitable outcome of a completely automated production scenario. Who are they even going to sell their products to if 99% of the people isn't working? The whole economic system as we know it by that point is bound to fall apart. A socio-economic revolution will happen and capitalism will be something young people will learn from the mandatory automated education system. Perhaps the idea that a product will be simply produced and distributed for free to everyone is preposterous to you, but I can mention one good that is absolutely vital for us and yet it gets produced and distributed equally to every single human in the world: oxygen. In a fully automated scenario it will work the same, think of the robots as immensely evolved trees that instead of converting raw CO2 into O2 for your consumption will produce any kind of good that you need in a perfectly self-preserving, self-replicating, self-adjusting automated system. Quote:
So far it worked because production improved drastically but it is naive to think this system will work indefinitely. There will be a point where increasing production will be pointless because no matter how many more goods you can make per minute, there's someone that needs to buy them and simply producing more won't increase the sales. Think of it this way. Let's say that you have 5 people that can produce a certain product for 10.000 persons, now for the sake of argument let's say that it's the kind of product that a single person can't possibly need more even if it costs shit, for example food or toothpaste. the ratio is 5 to 10.000. Now let's say a new machine is introduced so now 5 people can produce for 50.000 persons. Your argument is that nothing changed because that's still 5 people working, but it's not true. The ratio has changed, it's now 5 to 50.000 and that means that whereas before you needed 5 people for those 10.000 customers now you only need 1 in comparison. The basic trend is that the more technology advances the less people you need to produce a product and the less it will cost. This will go on until production will require 0 workers and the cost will be equally null.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2013-08-07 at 18:34. |
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2013-08-07, 18:31 | Link #35 |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I agree that the system that we know now, will collapse if we get the point when robots take over all of our labour.
Why do we need to keep most of the people in the world alive if they can't contribute to anything? We might get get into a phase in which only the rich or those with power will benefit from this and the poor end starving and dying. Eventually we might reach this "utopian world" in which people will all live in luxury of robots doing all of the work for them and not needing to do anything themselves, but not without sacrificing most of the population |
2013-08-07, 18:32 | Link #36 | |
Senior Member
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The only way I see people being comfortable with robots handling these jobs is if the robot is almost indistinguishable from a human being (think of the anime Time of Eve, or Data in Star Trek). But at this level of robots being like humans, you're going to get people pushing for "robots rights" legislation, arguing its ethically wrong for them to be treated like slaves or servants. We'll ironically just end up going full-circle if robots develop this far. Now, I do think we'll get to a point where capitalism becomes seriously threatened, and its utility becomes deeply questioned. But it's going to be a difficult situation - A lot of jobs we'll prefer robots to do (Janitor, Manufacturer, Builder, Farmer, basically any construction/production/maintenance job that doesn't involve dealing a lot with the general public). A lot of other jobs we'll prefer humans to do. There won't be anywhere near enough jobs to go around for all humans, meaning very high unemployment and capitalism appearing out-of-date. On the other hand, how do you motivate people to be Nurses, for example? My mother was a nurse most of her adult life, and that's a hard, physically laborious job. I certainly don't see people doing it just for a hobby. There will have to be significant personal benefit (i.e. some form of financial compensation, gifts, perks, etc...) for people to sacrifice free time to do that job.
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2013-08-07, 18:39 | Link #37 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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bigger houses in area of their choice social recognition - bill board on time square applauding so-so for contributing to society.
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2013-08-07, 18:47 | Link #38 | |
Senior Member
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It is possible that capitalism (at least as we know it) will one day become obsolete. I can imagine some people competing heavily for the top jobs that are left for humans, while a lot of other people just decide to chill out and enjoy something a notch or two above subsistence living, provided to them by the government. You could even make a good anime out of it, lol.
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2013-08-07, 19:04 | Link #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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The ancient Greek city states might have come closest to a society where it's citizens were left to pursue other interests, and they didn't really stay in bed all day. Ironically it was built on slave labor, although automation/robots would remove the ethical side of the problem in a future society. |
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