(L+CR) Kyoukai no Kanata (Beyond the Boundary)

[NinjaRealist]

Well, you can debate it over and over again, but convincing some that an action scene is objectively bad is about as easy as convincing them to believe that god exists (or doesn't exist). You either like it or you don't. Count me in the camp who thought the action scenes were great.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

Well, you can debate it over and over again, but convincing some that an action scene is objectively bad...

I'm not trying to convince anybody of that. If anything, I feel like some viewers have been trying to convince those of us who were displeased with the action scenes that they were objectively good.

All I'm trying to make clear is why some of us, including myself, were not pleased with the action scene in Episode 2. Of course there's an element of subjective taste to this, so if you liked the action scene, good for you. Obviously, I wish I liked it like you did. But at the same time there's reasons why certain shows and certain scenes are more likely to be regarded as including great action than others are. There are good general rules of thumb for making good action scenes, imo. Good animation quality is part of that, but it's not all of it.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A good action scene has good drama and/or suspense in it.

That just doesn't work.... Maka/Soul vs Jack the Ripper in Soul Eater Episode 1 doesn't have any good drama and/or suspense in it, but to say it's not a good action scene due to lacking those factors would be laughable.

Drama, suspense, bgm, animation, choreography, voice work all play a part in the quality of an action scene. Excelling at all these points is when a scene becomes truly great, but anyone should be able to walk into a room playing the Maka vs Jack the Ripper fight and appreciate the high animation and brilliant choreography level of it.

As for examples for Kaoru, look no further than Hunter X Hunter 2011.

[Tempester]

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[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

That just doesn't work.... Maka/Soul vs Jack the Ripper in Soul Eater Episode 1 doesn't have any good drama and/or suspense in it, but to say it's not a good action scene due to lacking those factors would be laughable.

And there you go. Westlo proves my point - That it's actually the other side of the action scene debate that is denying any subjectivity to this by acting like good animation alone automatically means good action scene.

No, it doesn't mean that. And there's nothing "laughable" about having that opinion on action scenes.

Clearly some of us care more about drama/suspense in action scenes than others do. For those of us who care a lot about drama/suspense, an action scene completely lacking it is just pure spectacle. It does little for us.

Drama, suspense, bgm, animation, choreography, voice work all play a part in the quality of an action scene. Excelling at all these points is when a scene becomes truly great, but anyone should be able to walk into a room playing the Maka vs Jack the Ripper fight and appreciate the high animation and brilliant choreography level of it.

A hockey player can be an objectively great skater and a fantastic passer. But those two elements alone does not make him a great hockey player, if he's substantially deficient in other key areas (poor shooter, lacks physical strength and stamina, etc...).

An action scene can have high animation and still not be a good action scene, at least for some of us. And I think this thread is showing that choreography appreciation is at least somewhat subjective.

[Shadow5YA]

I find it a little strange that Mirai is coordinated enough to pull all those stunts during action scenes, yet she can't tell that she has a bucket covering her head. I can easily suspend my disbelief that she can't see past the barrier covering the youmu appraisal shop, but the level of clumsiness that makes me question her basic physical coordination is another level of nonsense.

[Tempester]

I think Mirai's character is (so far) more suited for a supporting character than a main heroine. Her cute ditzyness is overplayed in a such a way that it would be actually fun and refreshing if she was a side character meant to provide comic relief. But it just cheapens her when she's the main heroine and love interest. The main heroine should be cute, but she should not be defined so much by debilitating gimmicks to the point where it's hard to take her seriously.

I do hope that she improves as a character and the dialogue of the whole anime becomes more bearable with less of those stupid "straight man" punchlines. KyoAni's shows tend to warm up to me over time rather than leaving a strong first impression.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't really understand this, maybe because I'm not much of an action fan. Can you direct me to another current or recent show where I can see what you think of as well directed action?

Triple_R gave great examples but I'll add the recent Hunter x Hunter remake to the list.

Since I'm not someone who usually takes mental note of this I can't really pinpoint the episode but there's a fight in the Heavens Arena Arc that is probably the best action scene I've seen in quite some time.

Spoiler for Hunter x Hunter:

It's the fight between Gon and Hisoka. It's gloriously animated, choreographed and has some great sound direction to top it of.

Do go and check it out if you can. Or just watch the show since it's probably the best long-running Shounen I've ever seen.

While I don't expect this show to reach those levels I wasn't expecting to be so underwhelmed by the scenes we've got. Yes they looked good but there was no drama, no feeling of urgency in them. They were sadly just there.

It's a bit difficult for me to pinpoint why I think they aren't particularly well choreographed since I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself. I just know, as a viewer, that it felt rather off to me. Maybe I'm being too harsh on KyoAni since I want to like their shows so much but that's how I feel.

[MartianMage]

Well I'll just say this... to be fair... it's Mirai vs a 1000 yen youmu only

But I just thought that it could have been better really but we'll see there should still be more action later.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't really understand this, maybe because I'm not much of an action fan. Can you direct me to another current or recent show where I can see what you think of as well directed action?

My favorite martial arts style action fight is in the RWBY "Yellow" Trailer, particularly between Yang and the twins which, in my opinion, is extremely well choreographed. The whole trailer is just under six minutes, more than half of which is continuous fighting.

[orion]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

My favorite martial arts style action fight is in the RWBY "Yellow" Trailer, particularly between Yang and the twins which, in my opinion, is extremely well choreographed. The whole trailer is just under six minutes, more than half of which is continuous fighting.

But that fight is basically what you'd get if you were watching a cut scene from a fighting game. A soulless fight.

KnK's fight had emotions. You saw her fear, a hint to why and had fight that occured over 6 different settings (back of apartment, playground, running thru street, side of building, rooftop, street b) and multiple angles. The majority of viewers aren't going to be taking a fight apart and commenting on stances. And being a 1000 yen fight, the money could be saved for the bigger fight in ep 4.

RWBY's Yellow fight had 1 principle setting with multiple angles. Hunter x Hunter's fight was also 1 setting with multiple angles.

[klare]

I think the fight scene is well done, Mirai's hesitation to kill may be related to her last sentence of the episode

however, still dunno what is a youmu and why the hero is an immortal...

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

All of the following Fate/Zero fights...

Spoiler for Major Fate/Zero spoilers:

The first Saber vs. Lancer fight

Kiritsugu vs. Kayneth

Pretty much any fight Gilgamesh was in.

Any time Rider used Ionioi Hetairoi.

Kiritsugu vs. Kirei

I'll leave it at that for now.

Spoiler for Thoughts on F/Z's action:

I wouldn't call F/Z generally well directed in action scenes. It's decent overall. It has it's moments where it's good. Specifically I liked the Saber vs Lancer fight.


It has it's moments where it is just atrocious.....

Spoiler:

Inconsistency is what really kills F/Z and that's why I can't really consider it good animation wise. Most of the time it gets carried by it's post production department which I do really consider ufotable to be very good at.

Still though, by far Bones is still king for me. I enjoyed E7:AO's action sequences more. I know it's unfair to compare movie production to TV production but if you're looking for some really well choreographed action scene, check out intro scene Star Driver Movie.

Regarding JC Staff. From time to time do dish out rare gems. Mostly it's just QUALITY though. I can't really judge on Railgun S since I haven't started on it yet. What I can say though is that the first season was consistently good. On the flipside though, the number of action sequences are not really that much compared to the likes of Index. Index' quality average is just terrible that I don't even dare to recommend it to someone who's looking for anime with consistently good action scenes.

As I said before I'm not really expecting too much of KyoAni's action scene choreography(but it won't hurt to be surprised either). They won't suddenly have a You Yoshinari in their roster nor have a Yutaka Nakamura at their disposal. Their talents are simply not honed to that kind of approach. What is true about KyoAni though is that they really have good effects animation and their post production staff are not to be ignored.

That aside.. Another off topic but this is regarding the one handling the series composition(Jukki Hanada). I have to say, he really has his moments. I just finished watching Love Live and really enjoyed it. Since Chuunibyou is loosely based from the LN, I'll be comparing it to it. In chuunibyou, the drama was kinda off putting to me. Comedy wise it was really spot on and entertaining to me. Love Live to my surprise was a complete package and even the drama aspect was handled pretty well.

Regarding his adaptation skills, he's done some really good stuff. I enjoyed Level E and Steins;Gate very much.

I'm really hoping He and Ishidate come up with something nice down the line. Quite frankly I've been hearing a lot of criticism regarding the source material itself and how poorly structured it was. If it's true then I hope they at least pull a Chuunibyou on this and improve the shows material a lot. With that in mind, don't hesitate to deviate.

[BBOvenGuy]

It's interesting to see how many people are comparing this show to some other show, and how many different shows people have compared it to. But no one has come up with my comparison yet.

Has anyone else seen this show and thought, "It's Hyouka with monsters?"

[darkchibi07]

Man, I thought some action scenes in Full Metal Panic: TSR was pretty damn solid like this brutal one starting at 14:50: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-4jn...=ELGKk_wvRzwbU

Granted some of it was done by Yutaka Yamamoto and his peeps who later left and became Ordet so maybe they lost the staff with the know-hows for fighting scenes?

Originally Posted by rulfo

I'm really hoping He and Ishidate come up with something nice down the line. Quite frankly I've been hearing a lot of criticism regarding the source material itself and how poorly structured it was. If it's true then I hope they at least pull a Chuunibyou on this and improve the shows material a lot. With that in mind, don't hesitate to deviate.

I don't think I've seen a KyoAni series where everyone even the Japanese otaku are unsure of. Hopefully with those future episode summaries before, it'll start bringing the crowd back, and maybe preorders might reach to Chuunibyou's or Free's range. It will really feel sucky if it fell into Tamako's range.

[Cloudenvy]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

It's interesting to see how many people are comparing this show to some other show, and how many different shows people have compared it to. But no one has come up with my comparison yet.

Has anyone else seen this show and thought, "It's Hyouka with monsters?"

No, because Hyouka was incredibly well-directed and had writing that, so far, Kyoukai can only dream of. Not that Kyoukai couldn't turn around and become incredible, but so far it isn't doing it for me.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Cloudenvy

No, because Hyouka was incredibly well-directed and had writing that, so far, Kyoukai can only dream of. Not that Kyoukai couldn't turn around and become incredible, but so far it isn't doing it for me.

And actually had Kyoani restrain themselves with their slapstick comedy, moe comedy and other high school antics which are present in pretty much ever series. The majority of it was channelled into Chitanda, which also got toned down as we approached the end of the series.

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The main problem with Kyoani "high school antics" in a series like Kyoukai though is that it's particularly jarring and causing mood whiplash. One moment we are supposed to take something seriously and the the next moment we have Mirai acting clumsy and airheaded. On top of that as mentioned before, the action choreography was not very good, so all we are left is nice visuals.

I'm giving it more one more episode before deciding to continue or not, but so far it doesn't look too good.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Has anyone else seen this show and thought, "It's Hyouka with monsters?"

I actually thought it's K-On with action and some guys. I can't be the only one that thinks Mirai is "Pink Yui" and Mitsuki is "Dark Mio."
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So yeah... I know it's been mentioned but I'm not sure if it's been answered. Was there actually a reason Mirai stabbed the MC on their first meeting? Was it because she could sense he's a Youmu? Or is it something that will get revealed later on?

[scr]

Guys guys you're all wrong this is kara no kyoukai with k-on


Considering the strange hobby of Akihito's mom (and that she is/was a youmu hunter), I wonder what kind of mind breaking happened that lead to his birth

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

And actually had Kyoani restrain themselves with their slapstick comedy, moe comedy and other high school antics which are present in pretty much ever series. The majority of it was channelled into Chitanda, which also got toned down as we approached the end of the series.

Hyouka and Kyoukai both have moe comedy gags, but Hyouka's humour tends to be character driven rather than gag driven. I know I'm cherry picking examples here, but one of my favourite such scenes in Hyouka is the bit with Chitanda running around the school festival on an errand getting distracted, reminding herself she needs to focus... and then getting distracted again. The punchline is actually pretty similar to Mirai tripping over brooms, but the Hyouka version doesn't feel out of place.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

The main problem with Kyoani "high school antics" in a series like Kyoukai though is that it's particularly jarring and causing mood whiplash. One moment we are supposed to take something seriously and the the next moment we have Mirai acting clumsy and airheaded. On top of that as mentioned before, the action choreography was not very good, so all we are left is nice visuals.

I'm giving it more one more episode before deciding to continue or not, but so far it doesn't look too good.

I don't consider Mirai being a klutz to be a mood killer any more than Chitanda at the school festival having the attention span of a fruit fly was. In fact, it's part of the flavour of the series - Mirai isn't some untouchable badass, and this show is more about her struggles and feelings than horror or action. The gags actually are a mood killer though.