To Aru Kagaku no Railgun archived manga discussion

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Nym

Or easier put: did they reach great power through intelligence or did they reach great intelligence through the input of great power?

I'm an extremist, I like to push things on the edge. So here's my answer :

Spoiler for slightly off topic, long and Index Spoiler (?):

First of all, let's consider the "if you are blessed great power first, you'll gain intelligence afterwards".
I actually didn't really understand that part, if you actually meant "you become a lv3 first, and it's only after that you get the super high computation power that goes with it, etc", then I have two answers to that in rather hash manners :

1- About Aogami, there's no proof Aogami is a level 5, and unlike Touma there's no proof he's a real idiot either. So let's not bring that point.

2- About Misaki, see bellow.

3- "gaining high level ability brings great intelligence" doesn't make sense in the first place. You don't suddenly become intelligent after solving cos(15√X * 151X) = sin (1618√X * 4863X), you need a certain degree of intelligence and experience to even take on that problem in the first place.
The same goes for esper powers. I already said it : to get powerful effects, AC espers need to manipulate complex equations that requires lot of computing power. For example teleportation requires the use of 11 dimension coordinates, you can't teleport anything far away if you can't correctly manipulate these coordinates in the first place*. And it's after the scientists confirm you can do all these things correctly that they label you LV.3 or LV.4 accordingly.

*Yes, there's an exception. A guy from Index vol 15 who can't completely manipulate 11 dimension coordinates very well. But even he, at least, knows the basics and can calculate up to a certain point. He's not just good enough to teleport without using a special reference point that makes his calculations much easier. He's called Kill Point but I'll come back to him later.

Secondly, let's consider that "having an ability at all should stimulate a low level esper into levelling through accumulated use and experience, and cause a level boost as a consequence". You have all the cases surrounding Misaka Mikoto (+ the parameter list) for that matter.
It was stated that most espers either started as high level ones from the get go, or started low and barely evolved afterwards. That was one of the main points of the first half of Index Novels, Railgun's level upper arc (many LV.1s and LV.2s used it too), etc : you are a low level esper = you gotta stay one. And that's mainly because AC wouldn't waste their resource on developing someone whose potential only goes up to level 3 or bellow.

Well, you could say there's the case of Misaka Mikoto an esper who started as level 1 and got to level 5 through hard work (or so they said). However that statement was blown off with the revelation of the parameter list : which revealed that she was a talented genius pre-determined to be a level 5 from the start. There's also the case of her 20000 clones who are stuck at level 2 under normal circumstance (without spending astronomical budget on each one that is), because they are deteriorated versions of that genius named Misaka Mikoto.
And no, if Kamijou Touma was labelled as a potential LV.5 by the parameter list, the higher ups and scientists would have already mentioned it by now. On the contrary, some speculated he might be like Gunha or Himegami, some speculated IB is a total unknown factor. But nothing LV5 related at all.

In other words, it all comes down to pure talent.
Where am I getting at? that most current high level espers (who mostly all started as high level) also means they were geniuses to begin with. If one gets to be a genius after gaining their powers, then espers who started at the lowest level before getting to the highest level should be more common. The only known existing case, Misaka Mikoto's, being a real fluke doesn't help either.

Lastly, to push the thing ever further. Let's consider that gaining a very special esper power, that requires a lot of computation ability, would lead to a boost of your current skills/intelligence/whatever in the long run. That is also false and completely refuted by how nerfed the teleporters in Toaru are.

Teleportation in Toaru is 11 dimension movement, wherefore requires the use of really complex equations and a lot of concentration. Thus, technically you'd think that "since they got such a high computing power taxing ability, they must have gotten used to do it after a few years = become living supercalculators on the long run". Alas, that's not the case. Instead we got a bunch of teenager who sucks at using their abilities :
-Kuroko who can't use her ability under a certain amount of stress. Just being startled by loud noises makes her unable to teleport
-Awaki who, disregarding her trauma, essentially has trouble keeping up with how hardcore the calculation required by Move Point are. This especially show up in high speed combat : she can't calculate fast enough to land quick Move Point attacks on fast opponents (and is forced to use the usual instant teleportation with simpler coordinates ... which mainly involved teleporting herself).
-and again Kill point from Index Vol 15. He has trouble manipulating the 11 dimensions coordinate and must use the location of other people as a reference point to base his calculations (thus can only teleport behind people).
He's clearly not a mathematical genius like the high level espers, just a bit clever and has the same laziness as most mathematicians does.

Now, what would happen if any of them gets the godlike computing power of the Accelerator? Don't you think teleporting a building directly on the moon would be possible?

[Nym]

Thanks alot for your input. I did not consider a few things you said beforehand and i guess you are right.

My mindset was (using an extremely simplefied example) that someone like a lvl 1 esper is doing the calculation of 10x10 to reach his way of personal reality. And after he did like a million or more times this easy equation he might get to the point of expanding his mindset. For example going so far as to think "if i use 10x10 i could also try out 10^2" etc. And like that slowly evolve into the state of a lvl 2. So through the permanent usage of his own reality evolving himself and his point of view further.

But you are absolutely right with mentioning Misaka as one of the few known example who didnt reach her full potential intantely. I didnt consider that so my whole theorie got destroyed =P

[SilverTalon]

Originally Posted by ACertainStark

That was Mikoto, pretty sure. Referencing the Fake date, I believe.

Yeah, but I don't think who it was matters. I didn't really get the feeling at all it was that she could solve them because she was a level 5 but that she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school. Which is also supported by the later mentioning that her school teaches college level classes.

On Aogami, if he turns out to be a level 5, I'm sure it will also turn out that he just acts like a moron on purpose due to his personality. We don't really have any specific instance of him appearing actually unintelligent.

[silvercover]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Yeah, but I don't think who it was matters. I didn't really get the feeling at all it was that she could solve them because she was a level 5 but that she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school. Which is also supported by the later mentioning that her school teaches college level classes.

On Aogami, if he turns out to be a level 5, I'm sure it will also turn out that he just acts like a moron on purpose due to his personality. We don't really have any specific instance of him appearing actually unintelligent.

Indeed, what he mostly shows is just being a slacker and an otaku. Most likely he just ends up neglecting his studies though rather than pretending to be idiotic.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Yeah, but I don't think who it was matters.

Yes, it does. Even Etzali could solve them rather easily. Etzali of all people, someone that isn't even a real AC student could, and Kamijou Touma couldn't.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school

Not really, "if a 14-year-old me were thrown in Oxford, would I be able to follow the rhythm" is a question anyone should ask themselves first.
Moreover, Tokiwadai only accepts high level ranked espers among their ranks in the first place (yes, for a few cases, passing classes has to do with level). It's not a school that miraculously changes commonplace stones into jewels, it's a school whose main vocation is to find diamonds and polish them further.
So no, whether she studied at tokiwadai or a normal middle school don't change the fact that she would have solve those problems in a blink of an eye. The simple fact that she can perform level 3-4 electrokinesis/magnetism in the first place means she's at least mastered highshool level maths and physics.

[silvercover]

as a side note guys, did anyone see this yet?
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Cloverfield

[Goldzero]

Originally Posted by silvercover

Indeed, what he mostly shows is just being a slacker and an otaku. Most likely he just ends up neglecting his studies though rather than pretending to be idiotic.

kamijou is simply to busy to study and you know that.

[FallenHero]

Originally Posted by Goldzero

kamijou is simply to busy to study and you know that.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Aogami.

[SilverTalon]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Yes, it does. Even Etzali could solve them rather easily. Etzali of all people, someone that isn't even a real AC student could, and Kamijou Touma couldn't.

For him to blend in inside AC he should need a certain level. But more importantly, do we know his age? I think he is probably at least Touma's age if not slightly older. Some one older solving your homework easily isn't a feat and really neither is some one in the same grade.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Not really, "if a 14-year-old me were thrown in Oxford, would I be able to follow the rhythm" is a question anyone should ask themselves first.
Moreover, Tokiwadai only accepts high level ranked espers among their ranks in the first place (yes, for a few cases, passing classes has to do with level). It's not a school that miraculously changes commonplace stones into jewels, it's a school whose main vocation is to find diamonds and polish them further.

You think all but the very, very, very most intelligent 14 year olds could take a course in say Topology at Oxford and have any idea what is going on? I don't see how that is relevant to the conversation anyway.

And no, I'm pretty sure level is determined (or maybe I should say labeled) by those tests we saw in the railgun anime/manga and vol 7 (I think). Sure the classes are designed to help raise level, but I don't think there was any instance anywhere suggesting class performance is part of level determination.
That part about Tokiwadai actually supports my argument. Who solved the problems specifically (Mikoto) isn't relevant. Any middle school student in a top tier school on Tokiwadai's level would be able to solve them. Its basically the reverse of your Oxford example. Should some one who takes classes at Oxford be able to help a first (?) year high school student with his homework? Yeah.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

So no, whether she studied at tokiwadai or a normal middle school don't change the fact that she would have solve those problems in a blink of an eye. The simple fact that she can perform level 3-4 electrokinesis/magnetism in the first place means she's at least mastered highshool level maths and physics.

You're arguing something no one ever brought up. Mikoto can solve them because she already knows the method to solve it, where she learned it doesn't matter for what I said unless it is some level 5 specific curriculum specifically which we know isn't the case. No one ever said Mikoto can only solve it because she goes to Tokiwadai; in fact she was level 3-4 when she got there so odds are she learned that material in elementary school. The point is that she knew how to do it because the curriculum she and other elite students go through is faster than Touma's by enough that at 14 she considers his work to be easy as she has long since moved past that. But what is a stronger argument to show Touma's level: Touma is not as smart as Mikoto (who for students at least is probably easily top 10 out of their entire student population) or Touma is not as smart (academically) as any of those students at top tier middle schools on the level of Tokiwadai? The second clearly gives you more information which was my point when I said it doesn't matter that it was Mikoto that solved the problems as those problems would be a joke compared to the curriculum offered at that school.

Now that last part, sure, you could take it further than I did and say that the calculations needed for level 3-4 abilities should be greater than what Touma doing and try to further pin point how he stands in relation to the rest of AC, but that doesn't really counter anything I said.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

For him to blend in inside AC he should need a certain level. But more importantly, do we know his age? I think he is probably at least Touma's age if not slightly older. Some one older solving your homework easily isn't a feat and really neither is some one in the same grade.

The whole point was to prove that Touma just isn't special at, which isn't up to discussion since it's something you acknowledge it yourself. The rest is just me nipticking.

Spoiler for Long, slightly off topic, nipticking:

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

You think all but the very, very, very most intelligent 14 year olds could take a course in say Topology at Oxford and have any idea what is going on? I don't see how that is relevant to the conversation anyway.

Well, you were saying it didn't matter because her class teaches college level stuffs and it was the main reason she could solve those problems. And I was saying it does because those people from tokiwadai are mostly made of geniuses ... which goes back to the "genius talk" from the post above.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

And no, I'm pretty sure level is determined (or maybe I should say labeled) by those tests we saw in the railgun anime/manga and vol 7 (I think). Sure the classes are designed to help raise level, but I don't think there was any instance anywhere suggesting class performance is part of level determination.

You misunderstood my post (again), I never said "class performance is part of level determination." I said you "need to be high level to be accepted in Tokiwadai" and that high level espers are generally expert on many fields related to their ability (mainly maths and physics) by default.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

You're arguing something no one ever brought up. Mikoto can solve them because she is Mikoto. No one ever said Mikoto can only solve it because she goes to Tokiwadai.

Read my post again, that's exactly what I was saying.
And, no, you were the one who said "she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school." And I was responding to that ... but it seems like you forgot that yourself.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

but that doesn't really counter anything I said.

It counters the

she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school.

If those calculation she usually does were really above what Touma usually does as homework then the statement above isn't valid anymore since she'd have solved them whether she attended tokiwadai or not.

To resume things, you said "it doesn't matter because her middle school teaches college stuffs". And I said, but that school takes only geniuses to begin with, which leads to :
-those geniused were certainly capable of solving that problem even before attending tokiwadai
-just like any genius level 4-5 that aren't currently within
-meaning Touma being not as smart as them has nothing to do with Tokiwadai's curriculum.

EDIT : Seems like you modified your post, but I'm not gonna modify mine, since the ones you've done are off the point. The whole argument is about Tokiwadai, not what she's done before entering Tokiwadai. That's another discussion.

[SilverTalon]

Yeah I did ninja edit it... really bad at that. I should just reread it to make sure it makes sense before I hit submit... But you're right, none of those edits really matter, I was just trying to clarify what I found to be awkwardly expressed.

Spoiler for Reply to Long, slightly off topic, nipticking:

[QUOTE=desrtsku;4872191]You misunderstood my post (again), I never said "class performance is part of level determination." I said you "need to be high level to be accepted in Tokiwadai" and that high level espers are generally expert on many fields related to their ability (mainly maths and physics) by default.

Actually you said "yes, for a few cases, passing classes has to do with level" which is what I was referring to and is afaik completely unfounded. Sure knowledge and ability and such have to do with level, but actually passing a class being relevant hasn't been said.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Read my post again, that's exactly what I was saying.
And, no, you were the one who said "she could solve them because the curriculum at her middle school is leagues above his high school." And I was responding to that ... but it seems like you forgot that yourself.

You're misunderstanding what I meant. Its not that she can solve them because she goes to Tokiwadai. Its that going to Tokiwadai means that she can solve them. Or because Tokiwadai's curriculum is leagues above Touma's school, you would have to know what Touma's learning to get in. When she learned specific things has never been said which is why I was looking at it from 'if you can go to school here, this means you can do x, y, and z'. So yeah she is solving it because of who she is and that 'who' learned the stuff already. Maybe you're getting it confused with when I said it wasn't because she was a level 5?

Originally Posted by desrtsku

It counters the

If those calculation she usually does were really above what Touma usually does as homework then the statement above isn't valid anymore since she'd have solved them whether she attended tokiwadai or not.

To resume things, you said "it doesn't matter because her middle school teaches college stuffs". And I said, but that school takes only geniuses to begin with, which leads to :
-those geniused were certainly capable of solving that problem even before attending tokiwadai
-just like any genius level 4-5 that aren't currently within
-meaning Touma being not as smart as them has nothing to do with Tokiwadai's curriculum.

Hmm I can see why you might think that, but no it doesn't counter that. The fact that its standard for her school to teach college level stuff means its taken for granted they already know the previous material. It doesn't really have to do with what Tokiwadai teaches because that is already way past. Its that if she goes there, she must know it. Its like if Tokiwadai is teaching linear algebra, obviously they can all do algebra because at some point somewhere they learned it so I can use the fact of currently being taught linear algebra as proof of knowing algebra.

My point about her specifically doing it being irrelevant wasn't about Tokiwadai the school itself but what going there implies and the additional information this gives trumping the information that Mikoto herself can do it. Its like if I tell you (A) I am less than 6.5 feet tall and then tell you (B) I am less than 7 feet tall, is (B) actually relevant information that you would use to guess my height? No. (B) would only be relevant to your guess if you didn't also know (A). Mikoto specifically solving it when any Tokiwadai (or most likely any of the other elite middle schools) isn't really relevant information because you have narrowed the range of his intelligence down further than that already. So the relevant part of that scene for guessing Touma's intelligence is that its a given that all of the Tokiwadai students could do it so he is below all of them and not just Mikoto.

I think you are missing the point of why I mentioned her school. If she went to a school where it was not standard to know what Touma was doing, the only thing we could get from that scene is that we know she is a good deal smarter than him. The Tokiwadai part is important because now we know that whole group is smarter. Its not important necessarily because of what the students learn there because as you said, they are all elites who quite likely were above that level before they entered Tokiwadai. We have no information telling us when those elites learn this kind of stuff though or I would have mentioned that. All that we do know is that based on Tokiwadai's curriculum being ahead of his school, they clearly all learned it by that point

[silvercover]

well for touma, you could excuse him perhaps due to his amnesia. he may have been able to solve those easily if he didnt lose his memories.

[lazydoggamer]

I think you guys are reading way too much into that homework scene. It was mostly for comedic effect

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by silvercover

as a side note guys, did anyone see this yet?
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Cloverfield

I lol'ed when I saw it for the first time, but now I wonder: was it a good idea to put it on the wiki? I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of Raildex fans didn't like Railgun S second half, but wouldn't putting fanon on the wiki cause more tension with the Railgun fans only who actually liked the Silent Party Arc (and that...thing that was the last episode)?

[desrtsku]

^ I genuinely liked Silent party even though I find it mediocre myself (yet a minority that finds the last episode good), but I don't mind at all. Or maybe it's because I still loathe Nagai as most people does.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

The whole point was to prove that Touma just isn't special at performing complex task like those, which isn't up to discussion since it's something you acknowledge it yourself. The rest is just me nitpicking.

Holy crap, I want to kill myself. Screw it, I'm never gonna post anything when half asleep again.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

-snip-

Spoiler for Reply to Reply to Long, slightly off topic, nitpicking:

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Actually you said "yes, for a few cases, passing classes has to do with level" which is what I was referring to and is afaik completely unfounded. Sure knowledge and ability and such have to do with level, but actually passing a class being relevant hasn't been said.

Which is there to illustrate "Tokiwadai only lets high level people in" and isn't supposed to mean anything else. Seriously how do you even get "class are part of level determination" from that.

Sure knowledge and ability and such have to do with level, but actually passing a class being relevant hasn't been said.

For the last time, Tokiwadai only lets high level espers in, meaning having good marks at your previous school isn't enough to enter Tokiwadai if you aren't at least high level espers. It's not about "passing class being relevant", it's about "level being relevant for passing certain classes". It's just like how to officially enter a school like Kirigaoka more than your marks, you need to be at least LV.2 + rare ability.
Seriously man, it's like you're reading everything I wrote backwards.

You're misunderstanding what I meant. Its not that she can solve them because she goes to Tokiwadai. Its that going to Tokiwadai means that she can solve them.

Please, that's already my point, there's no need to discuss that anymore ... no wait a second.

Or because Tokiwadai's curriculum is leagues above Touma's school, you would have to know what Touma's learning to get in. When she learned specific things has never been said which is why I was looking at it from 'if you can go to school here, this means you can do x, y, and z'. So yeah she is solving it because of who she is and that 'who' learned the stuff already. Maybe you're getting it confused with when I said it wasn't because she was a level 5?

Yeah, no, I think it's better if we do it like this :

Spoiler for let's finish this once and for all, I need to finish 999:

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

-actually off the mark and pointless comments about the entire discussion not even worthy of being called nitpicking-

Then again.

I think you are missing the point of why I mentioned her school.

Yeah you're right I missed it, because you just phrased your point wrong by giving it a "it's thanks to her school that she can do it"-like meaning the very first time (I'm talking about that other post of yours), and I just countered it with a "it's not because of her school, she could have solved it even before she entered her school because she could enter it in the first place" with this post like any good citizen is supposed to do.
All the discussion about "the entire body of Mikoto's school being a better comparison, etc." has nothing to do with it.

I think this discussion is officially over now. But just in case, and to be sure to clear any further misunderstanding, I'll just add this :

Yes, it does. Even Etzali could solve them rather easily.

As you can see, it was supposed to answer to your "I don't think who it was matters" in a very general way. But after reading all your posts, and confirming if as you claim you really meant to use Tokiwadai students as a general case of "geniuses that could have solved it even before entering Tokiwadai" or whatever, then I suppose I might have been in the wrong while posting this and I have to present my most humble excuses.

[SoloPanda]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I'll throw it out there. Perhaps it's being looked at the wrong way. Sure all of the high level espers are genius and have high IQ, but there is more than one type of IQ. Perhaps Touma is a Kinesthetic genius. Then he would learn by actions and perceive things quite differently from other geniuses. For instance Mikoto could easily explain the theory of how to stop, I don't know, A giant floating island with a madman holding power equal to God in his right hand from destroying and recreating the world. Touma just does it and probably couldn't tell you how to do it. So the calculations happen in his head without him realizing it just like Accelerators unconscious reflection or Hamazura's loli barrier or Mikoto's auto radio waves. So in short Touma may just be a genius of a different type of intelligence from the others. He may be much more like Gunha. He doesn't know how he does it, he just does it.

[desrtsku]

^ It was already mentioned. It's not calculations or anything like that, it's just priming.
It's not based on pure intelligence, it's based on how memory and experience sharpen your reflexes and intuitions.

[Thatguy3331]

Originally Posted by silvercover

as a side note guys, did anyone see this yet?
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Cloverfield

Huh... didn't know he directed Toradora and "Lookame Lookame, cry your eyes out"... this explains many many things...

I stopped watching the railgun anime after the sisters arc ended (and right before kuroko showed up cause you guys know how I am~) So I know nothing of the 'silent party' with the exception of 'level 5's apparently not needing air'.... Yeah I have no regrets...

But getting on topic with the manga I'm gonna bet my money that whatever Touma does it doesn't actually end until the bonfire dance...

[hamazura]

touma x gunha o_0
when chapter 64 released?

[SoloPanda]

Not sure when 64 comes out so I looked on Amazon.jp and found this. I ended up hitting the one click buy.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


I can't help but imagine the disgust/envy my employees/minions will regard me with after seeing this hanging in my office. Ah well I can use it as a filter for the ones who aren't "team players."