Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Legend bothered me the most. The thing doesn't have wings or anything that looks like it should allow it to fly at all yet not only can it fly in atmosphere it can keep pace with the other 3 Gundam's just as well using only its tiny little thrusters on its back.

Honestly all of the Gundams shouldn't be able to maintain their altitude with just a single giant thruster. Especially at their weight and size. As I said before, real world physics has already disappeared in Gundam.

[Wild Goose]

At least Super Robot Wars Original Generation made the handwave of the Tesla Drive, which allowed any damn thing to float and fly, and could be mounted onto almost any platform.

Well, except Alt Eisen Riese. That damn thing was so fucking heavy it needed a Tesla Drive to stand up!

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

Honestly all of the Gundams shouldn't be able to maintain their altitude with just a single giant thruster. Especially at their weight and size. As I said before, real world physics has already disappeared in Gundam.

SF IJ and Destiny at least have their thruster wing backpacks that while they still wouldn't allow for flight in real life physics at least look like the designs are trying to make it plausible. Legend doesn't, it has a huge circular thing covered in Dragoons that doesn't look like it helps in flight at all.

[Rising Dragon]

Even with their smallish design, the Legend's DRAGOONs would generate some lift for flight, and its backpack thrusters are larger than most. That said you run into problems when it angles those DRAGOONs for an attack, like when it surprised the Strike Freedom at ORB.

[monster]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

TL;DR : Even though SF shouldn't be faster based on the laws of physics, the Voiture Lumière engines and regular Gundam logic, or lack of, invalidate the laws of physics.

This is basically it.

Rising Dragon, as I said before, any defense I have on the Strike Freedom is based on what I see on the show itself. And from what I see, you're not actually pointing out a problem with the Strike Freedom alone, but with the show's implementation of science/technology.

Mind you, that's a fine complaint to have. But if the show says that the Strike Freedom is as maneuverable as the Freedom on Earth, then that is the case.

It's different from when I point out that that the Strike Freedom couldn't use the cannons when the rifles are mounted. That seems to be the case in the anime, so it's a valid complaint of the Strike Freedom as far as the in-story is concerned.

That said, you're of course still free to dislike that the Strike Freedom doesn't behave as you think it should. Just don't make the argument that the Strike Freedom isn't as maneuverable as the Freedom when it clearly doesn't suffer any such limitation in the show.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Don’t forget my favorite WTF-weapon in CE: the Beam Boomerang. Ou MY GOD! That thing is really facepalm-worthy to me. Not only the idea of throwing weapons are ridiculous for any Mobile Suits (accuracy be damned), but the Beam Boomerang actually has the ability to fly in atmosphere and came back to its owner-MS after being thrown! I might be the only person who think that way about Beam Boomerangs, but damn, that is the epitome of a weapon-made-for-the-sole-reason-of-looking-cool .

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

In this instance, I wouldn't. Due to how the anime depicts it, most people just shut their minds off and mindlessly defend it because it's Kira's. Otherwise it's still got problems with its wing design, which is still less flexible than the Freedom's and weighed down in atmosphere by the Super DRAGOON units, which are absolutely unnecessary for "thrusters" like the usual defense is whenever it's brought up.

They aren't necessary for thrusters. If SF ditched the DRAGOONs, the Wings of Light would kick on. Actually, what should have happened was when fighting in atmosphere, the SF would lose the DRAGOONs altogether. Their excess weight even if the performance is the same. In space, having them be able to function as thrusters makes sense since they need to recharge and refuel and being dead weight hamper performance.

So having the DRAGOONs docked is a handicap, but it's not that bad because they provide performance of their own. They might even be more powerful than the Wings of Light, so the thrust/weight ratio remains the same. The only downside would be fuel economy, which wouldn't be that much of an issue since the battles were short.

Now, if the Destiny and Strike Freedom's propulsion systems had been properly depicted, both as far as speed and maneuverability, then yes, they'd both be justified in being "better" than the original Freedom's design. If they both had thrust vectoring, then they'd have better maneuverability than the Freedom despite the inflexibility of their wing binders, with the Strike Freedom's wing design only being marginally superior to that of the Destiny's by about two points.

Was it actually said to be better? It's new and shiny, takes advantage of the Destiny's and SF's power plants, but if you really think about it, the rockets MSes use for propulsion are much more powerful than their power plants, whether it's fusion or nuclear. There's almost no way that the Wings of Light could be a primary thruster since the reactor they're powered by has no where near the juice.

That's why I think the Wings of Light are mainly for changing course and direction, while keeping the fuel requirements low.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Don’t forget my favorite WTF-weapon in CE: the Beam Boomerang. Ou MY GOD! That thing is really facepalm-worthy to me. Not only the idea of throwing weapons are ridiculous for any Mobile Suits (accuracy be damned), but the Beam Boomerang actually has the ability to fly in atmosphere and came back to its owner-MS after being thrown! I might be the only person who think that way about Beam Boomerangs, but damn, that is the epitome of a weapon-made-for-the-sole-reason-of-looking-cool .

Eh beam boomerangs didn't bother me so much because of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool honestly. Sure they don't make much sense all things considered. But considering this is the same meta-series that gave us G Gundam in all it's "glory". So in comparison beam boomerangs aren't that big a deal imo.

[CBredbeard]

Hey, why not? The beam component would reduce air resistance when thrown, and how else are you going to turn a melee weapon into a meaningful projectile? I believe they also used exploding kunai at some point in Seed.

[S.Freedom]

True, but those are rocket propelled weapons. Beam boomerangs only have the propulsion of the mobile suits arm swing.

And while my understanding of the mechanics behind the use of boomerangs is limited at best. I do believe it requires a certain degree of skill to get the return effect. Otherwise they'd just go in a straight line. I mean it's not like a beam rifle where you just aim and shoot. And yes I realize that's a simplification of using a firearm.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

They aren't necessary for thrusters. If SF ditched the DRAGOONs, the Wings of Light would kick on. Actually, what should have happened was when fighting in atmosphere, the SF would lose the DRAGOONs altogether. Their excess weight even if the performance is the same. In space, having them be able to function as thrusters makes sense since they need to recharge and refuel and being dead weight hamper performance.

That's what I argued when the argument was last brought up--in atmosphere, the Super DRAGOONs are completely unnecessary because of the wings of light the Voiture Lumiere system would produce. At the time, however, everyone argued "that'd be useless in-atmosphere!" and "the DRAGOONs provide thrusters for Hi-MAT!"

Yeah, well, the wings of light are way more powerful thrusters and have more of them than those 16 tiny thrusters could provide. Since they can't use those weapons anyway, there was no need to have them attached. Wings of light + decreased weight would've been more of a boon to Kira.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

So having the DRAGOONs docked is a handicap, but it's not that bad because they provide performance of their own. They might even be more powerful than the Wings of Light, so the thrust/weight ratio remains the same. The only downside would be fuel economy, which wouldn't be that much of an issue since the battles were short.

The benefits of losing the DRAGOONs would outweigh the benefits of keeping them attached. Simply put, there's more numerous, more powerful thrusters hidden underneath them, and those thrusters would give the Strike Freedom far more maneuverability due to them being more numerous--if it were properly animated and had things like thrust vectoring, otherwise the Strike Freedom would be less maneuverable overall than the Freedom. Hell, the Freedom had the same mechanics thruster-wise as the Strike Freedom's DRAGOON wings, but it had two extra, and a wider range to aim those thrusters with besides.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Was it actually said to be better? It's new and shiny, takes advantage of the Destiny's and SF's power plants, but if you really think about it, the rockets MSes use for propulsion are much more powerful than their power plants, whether it's fusion or nuclear. There's almost no way that the Wings of Light could be a primary thruster since the reactor they're powered by has no where near the juice.

That's why I think the Wings of Light are mainly for changing course and direction, while keeping the fuel requirements low.

The Destiny's wing binders are stated in one of the model kit manuals to be based upon, and improved from, the Freedom's wing binders. If they had fine-tuned thrust vectoring, the Destiny would've had ten simultaneous points of reference with a range of motion compared to the Freedom's two static points of reference for its maneuverability.

Proper thrust vectoring would also reduce the need for vernier thrusters in space. They'd cover a larger range of motion and adjustment with less placement than you would with static vernier thrusters.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

That's what I argued when the argument was last brought up--in atmosphere, the Super DRAGOONs are completely unnecessary because of the wings of light the Voiture Lumiere system would produce. At the time, however, everyone argued "that'd be useless in-atmosphere!" and "the DRAGOONs provide thrusters for Hi-MAT!"

We don't actually know how powerful any of the propulsion systems are. We can assume that the Voiture Lumiere System is lighter in weight and has better fuel economy, but we can't be sure if it's actually more powerful than veiner rockets.

Yeah, well, the wings of light are way more powerful thrusters and have more of them than those 16 tiny thrusters could provide. Since they can't use those weapons anyway, there was no need to have them attached. Wings of light + decreased weight would've been more of a boon to Kira.

If so and by what margin we don't know. It's not like Kira could ditch the Dragoons since he sortied from space. And if he could, he may not have been able to replace them if they'd been damaged or destroyed. Til we know one way or another, any guess is as good as another.

The benefits of losing the DRAGOONs would outweigh the benefits of keeping them attached.

Can't say that with certainty.

Simply put, there's more numerous, more powerful thrusters hidden underneath them, and those thrusters would give the Strike Freedom far more maneuverability due to them being more numerous--if it were properly animated and had things like thrust vectoring, otherwise the Strike Freedom would be less maneuverable overall than the Freedom. Hell, the Freedom had the same mechanics thruster-wise as the Strike Freedom's DRAGOON wings, but it had two extra, and a wider range to aim those thrusters with besides.

Again, this is guess work.

The Destiny's wing binders are stated in one of the model kit manuals to be based upon, and improved from, the Freedom's wing binders. If they had fine-tuned thrust vectoring, the Destiny would've had ten simultaneous points of reference with a range of motion compared to the Freedom's two static points of reference for its maneuverability.

Proper thrust vectoring would also reduce the need for vernier thrusters in space. They'd cover a larger range of motion and adjustment with less placement than you would with static vernier thrusters.

I wish I had a model to play with to really understand what you're saying. Somehow I doubt watching the series would actually support what you mean.

[Rising Dragon]

This should help then as far as the frame of reference goes then. The circles represent the 3D range of movement each reference frame has.

Images

Freedom's reference frames

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Images

Destiny's reference frames

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[Aquaman OS]

Strike Freedom's WoL only work in space. They are taken directly from the Stargazer's system, unlike Destiny's which was modified.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Strike Freedom's WoL only work in space. They are taken directly from the Stargazer's system, unlike Destiny's which was modified.

Actually all articles I've read concerning the system lists the Strike Freedom's wings of light and the Destiny's wings of light being functionally the same, despite the differing methods used to attain the system (the Strike Freedom's was developed from the Stargazer's, while the Destiny's was reverse-engineered). The Delta Astray is also usually listed as having the same type of wings of light as these two, whereas the Astray Red Frame and the Turn Delta are functionally different.

And if the Strike Freedom's wings of light were the exact same as the Stargazer's, then it'd be mostly unfit for high-mobility combat systems (as its just a sail, so to speak), and it would also retain its spatial structure-distorting nature that allows the Stargazer to capture and sling back energy beams. So the Strike Freedom's wings of light are definitely different from the Stargazer's, and if they're functionally the same as the Destiny's, there's no reason as to why it couldn't use them in-atmosphere beyond the blockage from the Super DRAGOONs mounted over them.

[monster]

They apparently thought keeping the DRAGOONs is reason enough to sacrifice whatever potential speed/maneuverability increase might be gained on Earth without them.

Also, I don't see how the DRAGOONs could've added thrust when they're connected at the place where their thrusters are located.

[Rising Dragon]

Some scenes show additional thrusters mounted on them during the Strike Freedom's launch. Furthermore, you were one of the ones to use that argument during the previous debate about the Strike Freedom's wing usage in atmosphere.

[monster]

i think you have me confused with someone else. If anything, i would've said that the DRAGOONs should've been usable against enemies from behind.

[Rising Dragon]

You had argued against the DRAGOONs being useless in atmosphere, specifically. Because of what they provided to the HiMAT mode.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You had argued against the DRAGOONs being useless in atmosphere, specifically. Because of what they provided to the HiMAT mode.

Ah, yes, that, just not the thrusters specifically. I'm under the impression that HiMAT does not rely on having thrusters in the wings.