2013-12-02, 13:08 | Link #33501 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
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I realize that the thread had often its share of overboard responses whatsoever, but I will ask you all to keep in mind that debate are only proper discussions so long everyone are on good terms with what's necessary for a debate and common sense.
If anything is going wrong or haywire, please report it. But please do not escalate any discussion needlessly. Also, I'm wondering if the spoiler thread isn't outliving its actual life span considering the arguments being quite cyclic as of late. No actual decision has been made yet, but either a new, better directed thread should be necessary, or purely and simply put this one on a permanent retirement.
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2013-12-02, 13:14 | Link #33502 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I understand what you mean and if it had been a few months earlier I would have probably agreed with you. However lately there was new content in the form of the EP8 manga coming, so I do think that this thread has a future for now.
(This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest)
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2013-12-02, 13:15 | Link #33503 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.
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2013-12-02, 13:15 | Link #33504 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment.
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2013-12-02, 13:23 | Link #33505 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
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Meanwhile, since I don't particularly follow the manga, I would like to know the progress of ep8 as of now. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread once it is fully completed.
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2013-12-02, 13:25 | Link #33506 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I don't think that this thread should be shut down without a replacement. This is a really good, interesting thread in general, in my opinion. It would be a real pity for it to close, and I doubt the subforum would last long without it.
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2013-12-02, 13:48 | Link #33507 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
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The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! Allow me to augment Lambda-sama's red with my Blue Truth. If GM Battler were to argue that Lambda-Sama's red only pertained to the Fourth Game, then equally he couldn't have used Beato's Red Truth to prove to Dlanor that there was reason to believe that he could be The Man From 19 Years Ago. Quote:
Are we to argue that Yasu and Maria established a connection, or at the very least shared the same ideas? While we know that Rosa spent a fair amount of time on Rokkenjima, Maria(obviously) wasn't alive at that time. Rosa also Was the one who found the Kuwadorian Beatrice We also know that Rosa feels a tremendous amount of guilt for "killing" the Kuwadorian Beatrice When Will confronted her in the 7th game. I'd also argue that the biggest riddle was revealed not during the 6th game. But towards the end of the 5th game. Battler hinted towards the idea that Beatrice was aiming for "a miracle so unlikely it was like finding a pebble amongst the sand". What could a miracle so unlikely be? What if the 'Miracle' is the revival part of the Ceremony? The idea that everyone'll come back to life, including perhaps even the Kuwadorian Beatrice? |
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2013-12-02, 13:51 | Link #33508 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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And no, they didn't really get along as a group in the first four game boards either. Remember Eva sniping at Natsuhi over every little thing? That wasn't limited to when other people weren't around. Remember Rosa's 'Best Mom Ever' moments? She didn't hold back just because the other cousins were watching. I don't think things like that are really compatible with the idea of the family getting along fine when they're all together in public and not discussing the money. There are some deep seated issues there that probably could have been healed, but were not portrayed as such in the first few game boards. |
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2013-12-02, 13:52 | Link #33509 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Perhaps a new thread for "alternative theories" or something could be useful? In order to keep things a bit more tidy. Then we could keep this thread for discussing new materials, spoilers and the “official theory” while still having another thread for alternative theories (both serious and not-so-serious).
Discussion and debate are one of the core elements of Umineko, so it’s bound to be quite a lot of posts right? Although I agree that it’s starting to get quite a cynical tone, let’s keep in mind that we all have our own opinions and interpretations. Part of Umineko’s theme is to create you own personal truth, so even if anyone thinks someone else is “wrong”, please try to still keep a friendly tone when giving counter arguments and/or your own view on things. I personally really enjoy reading the discussions since it gives a lot of new interesting views on things. I think it would be sad if it was stopped just because we don’t se eye-to-eye on everything. Edit: Perhaps it could even be an idea to have a separate thread for discussion regarding Yasu/Lion him/herself? Just a suggestion. |
2013-12-02, 14:33 | Link #33511 | ||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Battler's argument in red to Dlanor in ep 5 seems fairly straightforward. Quote:
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That passage makes it sound as if the miracle that Beatrice wanted was for Battler to solve the difficult riddle she had set for him and reach the truth. He doesn't tell us what the answer is, so for us, any in-depth revelations about its content would have to come later or not at all. But, if the miracle she was after was Battler understanding the truth, that would suggest that the miracle she was looking for wasn't a miraculous resurrection of Kuwadorian Beato. Kinzo would definitely have liked to revive the Kuwadorian Beatrice, but it's hard to think of anyone else who would get a-murdering to bring her back. I think one of the main problems with the idea of anybody committing the murders in order to bring about genuine magic is that they would need to be nuts, with the possible exception of Maria. |
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2013-12-02, 14:34 | Link #33512 | |||
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I have no problem continuing the conversation either.
It might be unusual for a series that is no longer in syndication or production (except the adaptation) to be that heavily discussed. Ripping the "official" and "non-official" discussion apart doesn't really help the discussion, it only puts a marker of non-seriousness on the non-official stuff. Quote:
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It's the basic approach that certain elements, you also mentioned magical scenes and meta-scenes, can simply be discarded from the plot. Yet you say that Van Dine is active for at least the mysteries, a set of rules that actively proclaims that there should not be any parts unnecessary to the mystery in a story. Declaring elements of a story unimportant appears to be a fallacy to many because it begs the question of why they are there. Misdirection is something different than inserting superfluous elements. In a mystery story nothing can be ignored, everything plays into the grander scheme. If there is misdirection there needs to be a hint that something is misdirection, just saying "this is fantasy so I can ignore it", while arguing with other information gained in fantasy-scenes, like the Red Truth itself, just appears insufficient. Why would Beatrice on the meta-plane saying that her Red is the truth be more true than other witches talking about the quality of her game? Quote:
The problem with Erika and Kinzo is that they exist in the same half-state of existence on the island. Additionally, I'd like you to take a look at these pages about EP5 from the EP8 manga: Spoiler for EP8 chapter 20:
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2013-12-02, 14:40 | Link #33513 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Very shortly after the scene where Kanon is confirmed to not exist in the guest room, Battler and Beatrice give the There are 17 people. red, so any possibility of people no longer counting as people after their deaths in ep 6 is straightforwardly ruled out even if not looking at the other games.
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2013-12-02, 15:21 | Link #33515 | |
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The death cheat is especially problematic, but honestly it's about the only part of the entire Shkanon thing I can say is outright poorly-done. Everything else is at least foreshadowed in some fashion or possible (if not plausible without some fussing with the execution), but "death != death" opens some rather silly logic holes, like Kinzotrice or Nobody Actually Dies. Considering the biggest stumbling block for this is the admittedly-rewritten ep3 (as well as the "ninth victim" anomaly from ep4), it's possible it just wasn't thought out well and the original intent behind Land would not have produced quite the same problem. I get the sense that maybe the closed room chain First Twilight would've been something Battler got to directly experience and it was recycled into Banquet and told to Battler second-hand. It would've been a far more effective puzzle had Battler witnessed the impossible chain with his own eyes (and if the minor problem of the second boiler room door had been addressed, although the manga fixed that). The way it's executed provides silly secondary solutions like "all of the adults were lying" and the tension and surprise of the chain would've been a lot better in the first person.
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2013-12-02, 16:10 | Link #33516 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I think Nobody Actually Dies is meant to not work due to the fact that each character would need a different alternate personality to switch to, since only characters that are introduced (such as Beatrice) are allowed to do anything. Doesn't stop the Literally Anyone is Beatrice theories though.
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2013-12-02, 16:22 | Link #33517 | |
The True Culprit
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2013-12-02, 16:26 | Link #33518 | |
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In a murder mystery, you could say that if you "die" you're no longer playing the "role" of the person you were supposed to be, since that person has been "killed" and shouldn't be alive (even though they are). Beatrice is no longer playing the role of Shannon or Kanon in the official ep3 solution, for instance, but she's never actually playing the "role" of Beatrice in the same sense she does in ep2 or ep4 as an actual person who is supposed to be seen and talked about for Battler's benefit. She's acting as an offscreen killer. It doesn't matter if she's Beatrice or Yasu or Clair or Gaap or anything because nobody lives to describe the person to Battler. In that sense you could say she's "no longer Shannon/Kanon" but not say she's any one other character specifically (other than maybe "the culprit"). I don't see any reason why characters who "died" couldn't simply assume a new role as accomplices to the game. They don't need a new name or anything, just "Krauss is 'out,' so now he has to help set up the chapel mystery as one of the 'demons.'" It's not difficult to say the text supports this with Jessica suggesting that basically everyone has different roles they play in different situations and the fact that there are a bunch of demons running around in the fantasy scenes, including characters like Ronove and Virgilia who remain active after their "hosts" have "died." Now that's obviously apparently not what was intended, but that's the problem with being vague as to what death represents. I cannot say, for example, that this isn't possible, merely that it's clearly not what Ryukishi wanted because he's said so in Our Confession and the manga where it's clear the boards do in fact have a killer. But if death isn't death, or rather "death" refers to the role of the characters in the mystery and not to their specific physical life-death status, I can easily say that the ending of ep2 is explained because Shannon could be Beatrice in the study because she didn't physically die, Kinzo was seen because he wasn't dead either (he's simply playing the role of "the already-deceased patriarch" and acting as a behind-the-scenes guy), and the part where the goats consume Battler is just the other "dead" people showing up after Battler's given in to believing the whole thing was real to mock him. And then everybody explodes for some reason.
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2013-12-02, 16:30 | Link #33519 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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My favourite -trice theory is the Teatrice theory, where Beatrice is a teapot that poisons everyone. One day I will make it work.
Eva stayed because she wanted to be the family head. She couldn't bring herself to tell Ange that everyone else had left her behind because they didn't love her. |
2013-12-02, 19:57 | Link #33520 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I was about to suggest that truths about "murder" could confirm deaths, but apparently Kanon and Shannon were "murdered" in the episode 3 first twilight. Yeah the personality death thing is stupid. At the very least it seems like Genji should be able to shed his furniture persona and "die".
Let's see, the twilights in the original games which I would say unarguably have dead victims, even if you assume everyone has alternate personalities: - Legend, twilight 9: "The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!"/"The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!" - Turn, twilight 2: "When Jessica's corpse was discovered" - Banquet, twilight 2: "The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed" - Banquet, twilight 9: "A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes!" Also the blown up heads in episodes 1 and 4 probably couldn't be faked. So a "nobody died" theory can't work, barely. |
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